Wheres T Mobile Now????
- Thread starter Mtventoux
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A lot of sweeping generalisations in this thread.
I used to despise Bernard Hinault for arrogance.....but the French loved him for it. Yet many French dislike Armstrong for his arrogance, and his nationality certainly doesn't help him to win fans in France, yet the French loved Lemond, the only other American champion.
On the other hand, Indurain wasn't too popular in France, yet it would be hard to find a more unassuming and humble champion.
And as for Virenque and his massive popularity (and ego) in France, all in spite of his rather dubious track record!
Lots of contradictions, which give the lie to a lot of the national stereotyping that has gone on in this thread.
I used to despise Bernard Hinault for arrogance.....but the French loved him for it. Yet many French dislike Armstrong for his arrogance, and his nationality certainly doesn't help him to win fans in France, yet the French loved Lemond, the only other American champion.
On the other hand, Indurain wasn't too popular in France, yet it would be hard to find a more unassuming and humble champion.
And as for Virenque and his massive popularity (and ego) in France, all in spite of his rather dubious track record!
Lots of contradictions, which give the lie to a lot of the national stereotyping that has gone on in this thread.
snyper0311 said:Lim,
I'm sorry man, but I don't like the guy. HOWEVER, I do respect his ability on the bike. If I could do half of what he does, I'd be 10 times the rider I'd ever thought I'd be.
My main issue with him is that he seems not to care. For him, second best (over the last 7+ years) is o.k. Remember, this is his job. If I gave only a half hearted effort at work, I'd be unemployed. He has all that tallent and doesn't use it. I jsut hate to see the waste!
And true, Wolfix, as I said above, I'd kill to be half the bike rider that he is. In the world of sports, we have those that we love and those that we hate. For me, he falls in to the second group. For every cowboy in the white hat, there has to someone in the black hat (the villan). Over the last seven years, he has been given the title of the one to compete with/beat Lance. Only, he hasn't lived up to the hype given.
Remember, this is only one man's oppinion. For every one of me, there are 100 people who would disagree. Also remember, "Oppinions are like buttholes, everybodys got one.
Wow, this sounds like a genuine unemotional ,unbias, honest opinion. Careful you don't start some kind of trend.
As far as disagreements, I wish you guys would not disagree with me too much as I have my wife for that and you are all just amateurs in comparison to her abilities.
snyper0311 said:
yeah. every time the race gets into a mountain stage my heart sinks and i watch jan just waiting for him to crack. i started watching cycling last year during the tour so i never got to see the kaiser really lay it down (except at the last tt. didn't he take--you guessed it--second there?)
all these other riders are able to push up the mountain and jan just falls behind...maybe he's just over his prime or doesn't care or the crashes were worse than t-mo let on or whatever. it disappoints me and i think it does mean that lance will have no major competitors this year. no matter how close rasmussen, valverde, or even basso stay to him there's still the tt in stage 20, and is there any rider still in the race that has as good a chance at time trialing with lance than a <healthy> ullrich?
mr tibbs said:
My opinion is time can only be gained on LA on the 8 degree climb stages coming up.
If it can be gained anywhere,of course I am referring to GC contenders.
If nothing changes by Tuesday the TT is just a formality discounting injuries and unforseen problems.
jhuskey said:
of course, gaining time in the climbs is a shaky proposition at best. either you attack first and get chased down by a team whose only purpose is to chase you down or you wait till dsc makes their move and then they're setting the pace which, they hope, will be too high for anyone to make a proper attack.
which brings me to another point that people have been making throughout this thread: jan hasn't attacked for years. well, which rider, of any, do you think lance is going to chase down the hardest and would have chased down the hardest in recent years? maybe that's changing now, but i think over the last two years and the first part of this tour it was jan. i think htat frees up vino and especially kloden to make a move because lance has to worry about jan, who certainly won't attack while they're out because he wants to help them make up as much time as possible. maybe it's just team tactics? well, it was. at one point. oh hell, looks like lance's gonna win again.
it'll be nice, next year, to see a tour whose outcome is in question anytime after the 11th stage.
musette said:It's superb for a cyclist overall, absolutely. Subjectively for JU, and objectively for T-Mobile/Telekom and the German public, I'm not so sure his string of second place finishes at the Tour and his being off the podium last year can be deemed to be "superb".
If JU's accomplishments in the Tour can be considered "superb", then LA's record there must be considered mega-watt-amazingly-superb.
Did I mention the TDF specifically - no.
Did I make a comparison with LA - no.
Your fixation and your utter defensiveness about LA and any perceived slight is noted.
Finally, LA's record in your words, "mega-watt-amazingly-superb", loses it's
pallor if we include LA's ENTIRE TDF palmares.
Still, you tell us that you're an unbiased JU fan - at the last count.
snyper0311 said:Lim,
I'm sorry man, but I don't like the guy. HOWEVER, I do respect his ability on the bike. If I could do half of what he does, I'd be 10 times the rider I'd ever thought I'd be.
My main issue with him is that he seems not to care. For him, second best (over the last 7+ years) is o.k. Remember, this is his job. If I gave only a half hearted effort at work, I'd be unemployed. He has all that tallent and doesn't use it. I jsut hate to see the waste!
And true, Wolfix, as I said above, I'd kill to be half the bike rider that he is. In the world of sports, we have those that we love and those that we hate. For me, he falls in to the second group. For every cowboy in the white hat, there has to someone in the black hat (the villan). Over the last seven years, he has been given the title of the one to compete with/beat Lance. Only, he hasn't lived up to the hype given.
Remember, this is only one man's oppinion. For every one of me, there are 100 people who would disagree. Also remember, "Oppinions are like buttholes, everybodys got one.
I can see how the perception is that he never really delivered on his initial record.
A comment that JU made back in 1998 always bothered me after that years TDF.
He said "I have won the TDF (in 1997). I would like to win the TDF again, for sure. But once you win the TDF once, you cannot replicate that sensation again".
Second place in the TDF 5 times, winner of the Vuelta, winner of the Olympic titles, winner of the amateur world championships.
He's a great talent and he has delivered by most peoples standards and most peoples ability.
But I do think that he has never really explored the entire extent of his talent.
Tonto said:
Very good post.
Hinault was arrogant - great rider but totally dismissive of all opposition.
The French public opinion is curious.
Local rivalries in Europe exists : French/German, Brtitish/French, German/British, Belgian/Dutch etc.
What really interested me was how a guy from a neighbouring country (Spain)
came to dominate the TDF and was totally respected by the French (Indurain).
With all these local tensions that exist in bordering countries, BigMig managed to win without offending public opinion in the host TDF country.
limerickman said:
Yeah the French attitude towards cycling heroes has always been curious. The booing of Anquetil during his victory lap at Parc des Princes because he beat poor PouPou, being a case in point! Goes some way to explaining their attitude towards Armstrong, when one of the greatest cyclists ever was so disliked in his home country.
One of the great rivalries that I really enjoyed (and I'm sure you did too) was the English-speakers against the rest during the 80's. While Irish cycling fans were disappointed that Lemond beat Roche and Kelly to the feat of being first English-speaker to win the TdF, most were delighted for him. I was anyway and not least because he beat Hinault.
Remember when there was talk of an all English-speaking team being formed?.....Lemond, Kelly, Roche, Earley, Anderson, Millar.....imagine what that would have been like!
Do you recall the whole story behind that one?
JU's accomplishments depend on what one would consider superb. For example, I don't see finishing second as being "leaps and bounds" better than finishing fourth or ninth. It just means that he didn't win the GC. Others might see finishing second as much better than fourth or ninth, and that a podium place is really great. It depends on one's point of view.
MJtje said:
Well, I don't agree with that comment either. If it wasn't Lance, it would have been some other rider. Remember, he lost to Marco P. also. He had that same look then.
I'm not taking anything away form Lance, I think he if he wins this years tour, HE IS THE GREATEST TDF RIDER-EVER!
As I stated above, he seems to not "Want it" enough to do what it takes to win it. There were the 02-03 years where if his team would have helped more, he might have had a chance. Other than that, he just could not, and will not contend.
Tonto said:
That's 100% correct : I think a lot of Irish fans (and Brits for that matter) were supporting Kelly for TDF winner and when LeMond did it, there was some disappointment.
I do recall the story about an all-english speaking team.
The Irish perspective was that the European trade teams were effectively national teams (ie Italians cycled for Italian teams, Belgians for Belgian trade teams etc) and that effectively you had national teams competing for the grand tours.
Kelly (and Roche to a lesser extent) seriously considered the idea of going with the concept of an all-english speaking trade team because in the very early 80's Ireland would have had only Kelly and Roche and they were unable to compete with Renault or Panasonic or Reynolds (teams packed with native riders).
The difficulty with the concept was that no sponsor could be found in Britain/Ireland who was prepared to match the budgets of La Redoute or a TI Raleigh.
But in hindsight perhaps it was better that the concept died because guys like LeMond and Anderson and Kelly all said that being forced to live in mainland Europe, being forced to learn the language, made them tougher and more competitive.
musette said:
One's point of view, indeed.
Second in the TDF 5 times.
....better than quitting the TDF or finishing 36th perhaps ?
musette said:
musette said:
So second is the same as fourth or ninth, or what exactly ?
You repeat, ad nauseum that first is the only criteria - or maybe you don't like me quoting that bit because 36th or DNF kinda upsets the first being best argument that you repeat, ad naseum here and on the JU fan site that you
occupied.
Do you see any finishing first as being "leaps and bounds" better than finishing second ?
snyper0311 said:
so jan would have been second no matter what? i wonder what the time gaps were between jan and vino in 03, or jan and the #3 rider in his other second place finishes. does anyone know? maybe if the time gap was small and jan didn't have the specter of lance pulling him on he would have been more lax, but...i'd think that unlikely.
mr tibbs said:
2003 TDF final GC :
1. Lance Armstrong 83:41:12
2. Jan Ullrich at 1'01"
3. Alexandre Vinokourov at 4'14"
4. Tyler Hamilton at 6'17"
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