Which Brakes? Avid Mechanical Disc? Magura Big or Marta HydraulicDisc?



A

Artemisia

Guest
I've been assuming all along that the brakes I would get on my new HPV
Scorpion would be the Magura Big Hydraulic disc. I made this assumption
because in the _Greenspeed_ customisation guide, these are given as the
best choice for heavy riders in terms of max stopping power and subtlety
of control. Greenspeed, unlike HPV, doesn't offer either the Martas or
the Avids.

Now I've been reading up on the competition, and have become confused.
The Avid mechanical brakes are what come as standard. I've done some
googling on these and have found the most incredibly consistent series
of rave reviews. The consensus out there seems to be - people who fork
out extra for hydraulic discs are plain stupid or misguided, the Avids
are so good as to be unbeatable on function at a much lower price and
much easier maintenance.

I also learn that hydraulic brakes have brake fluid which can leak, and
that they are a lot fiddlier to maintain, and a lot more delicate and
likely to fail. Is this true?

And does anyone know the difference between the Martas and the Bigs?
What justifies the extra price on the Martas?

I'm not quibbling on price. I will pay _whatever_is_necessary_ to get
the product that is best for _me_. I will be using this trike to get
down the very steep hills on my commute to work. I have never been able
to bike these descents and have trouble even walking them, such is the
angle. There is about a km of dizzying descent, crossed with traffic
intersections. I _must_ be confident that I can stop.

But simplicity of maintenance is as important as powerful stopping. The
other vocation of the trike will be to come touring with me in places
where support may not be easily found, and to be on and off planes and
trains. If hydraulic disks are too delicate, and by failing immobilize
the entire vehicle, then they may not justify their extra cost.

Thanks for your experiences. Cheers,

EFR
Ile de France
 
L

landotter

Guest
On Aug 28, 1:14 pm, Artemisia <[email protected]> wrote:
> I've been assuming all along that the brakes I would get on my new HPV
> Scorpion would be the Magura Big Hydraulic disc. I made this assumption
> because in the _Greenspeed_ customisation guide, these are given as the
> best choice for heavy riders in terms of max stopping power and subtlety
> of control. Greenspeed, unlike HPV, doesn't offer either the Martas or
> the Avids.
>
> Now I've been reading up on the competition, and have become confused.
> The Avid mechanical brakes are what come as standard. I've done some
> googling on these and have found the most incredibly consistent series
> of rave reviews. The consensus out there seems to be - people who fork
> out extra for hydraulic discs are plain stupid or misguided, the Avids
> are so good as to be unbeatable on function at a much lower price and
> much easier maintenance.


They work as well as a brake needs to work, are mechanically simple
and easy to adjust. IMHO, hydro brakes can have wonderful lever feel--
but are really mechanical overkill for most riders. The Avids are a
classic, one less thing to worry about.
 
S

Steve

Guest
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 19:02:22 -0000, landotter wrote:

> On Aug 28, 1:14 pm, Artemisia <[email protected]> wrote:
>> [14 quoted lines suppressed]

>
> They work as well as a brake needs to work, are mechanically simple
> and easy to adjust. IMHO, hydro brakes can have wonderful lever feel--
> but are really mechanical overkill for most riders. The Avids are a
> classic, one less thing to worry about.


All very true. I use avid on my mtb, if I was doing a lot of downhill I
would consider hydraulic but I'm not, and the avids work just fine for xc
riding.

The main overall reason for me is that I can fix a broken cable nearly
anywhere, I don't want to be held up trying to buy a hydraulic lead, or
trying to fix a problem when I'm right in the middle of a cycling holiday.
The hassle would just not be worth the benefit.

Steve
 
C

coyoteboy

Guest
Artemisia wrote:
> I've been assuming all along that the brakes I would get on my new HPV
> Scorpion would be the Magura Big Hydraulic disc. I made this assumption
> because in the _Greenspeed_ customisation guide, these are given as the
> best choice for heavy riders in terms of max stopping power and subtlety
> of control. Greenspeed, unlike HPV, doesn't offer either the Martas or
> the Avids.
>
> Now I've been reading up on the competition, and have become confused.
> The Avid mechanical brakes are what come as standard. I've done some
> googling on these and have found the most incredibly consistent series
> of rave reviews. The consensus out there seems to be - people who fork
> out extra for hydraulic discs are plain stupid or misguided, the Avids
> are so good as to be unbeatable on function at a much lower price and
> much easier maintenance.
>
> I also learn that hydraulic brakes have brake fluid which can leak, and
> that they are a lot fiddlier to maintain, and a lot more delicate and
> likely to fail. Is this true?
>
> And does anyone know the difference between the Martas and the Bigs?
> What justifies the extra price on the Martas?
>
> I'm not quibbling on price. I will pay _whatever_is_necessary_ to get
> the product that is best for _me_. I will be using this trike to get
> down the very steep hills on my commute to work. I have never been able
> to bike these descents and have trouble even walking them, such is the
> angle. There is about a km of dizzying descent, crossed with traffic
> intersections. I _must_ be confident that I can stop.
>
> But simplicity of maintenance is as important as powerful stopping. The
> other vocation of the trike will be to come touring with me in places
> where support may not be easily found, and to be on and off planes and
> trains. If hydraulic disks are too delicate, and by failing immobilize
> the entire vehicle, then they may not justify their extra cost.
>
> Thanks for your experiences. Cheers,
>
> EFR
> Ile de France


Anyone waffling about reliability problems on a hydro disc brake is
misguided - I've run them for nigh 10 years now and never had one fail
(3 bikes, both ends hydro) Hopes and maggies. Its very very rare to have
seals or hoses blow mid-use - normally its after a crash or such like.
In these instances a cable will snap as easily as a hose gets ripped
out. They never need bleeding (unless its an open system and you bugger
about with it upside down). I'm inclined to favour hydros because I find
the lever feel is lovely and they feel solid, and that matters to me,
instilling confidence - I know i can lamp on my front disc at 40mph and
easily feather the brake as it locks,unlocks,locks - like ABS. With the
cable discs I've tried, and that is only a few in lesser conditions, i
found it felt a little like i was stretching the cable - when the disc
locked i had to back off the lever further to release it (possibly due
to elastic deformation in the cable?) - it just feels more clunky which
is not inspiring. I also know people who have problems with them
jamming up with mud off-road, and the cables take more maintenance-
hydros are fit and forget until the pads wear out.
That said, if I was using it on road I'd be happy with a cable disc no
problem and wouldn't waste the cash - the key thing is to test the
brakes, even between two hydros the power and feel can vary massively.

But IMO the ultimate answer is maintenance - only once have I stripped
and rebuilt my hope 4-pots, and that was due to a sticky piston as it
had been left soaked in mud and salt water for 6 months - the strip and
rebuild was easy with the right tools. It posed a slight problem when i
forgot to properly tighten the hose and it undid on the trail but that
was me not checking things, not the brake. But other than that I've
never touched any of my discs after fitting them - ever.

Test them and feel for yourself, preferably people with one thats bedded
in - remember it takes a fair bit of distance to bed a disc in properly.

J

J
 
P

Peter Clinch

Guest
Artemisia wrote:

> Now I've been reading up on the competition, and have become confused.
> The Avid mechanical brakes are what come as standard. I've done some
> googling on these and have found the most incredibly consistent series
> of rave reviews. The consensus out there seems to be - people who fork
> out extra for hydraulic discs are plain stupid or misguided, the Avids
> are so good as to be unbeatable on function at a much lower price and
> much easier maintenance.


All mechanical brakes suffer from gradual degradation as the cables
clag up and corrode. A brand new set of mechanical brakes feels
great, but that's because they're brand new. Come back in two
years and then try again, and the hydraulics will still work much
as the day you started and the mechanicals quite possibly won't.

I've used the Avids on the Kinetics demo HPVels and they were...
okay. OTOH, every time I've used hydraulics I've come away feeling
they're much better in use than mechanicals. I traded my
Streetmachines mechanical rim brakes for hydraulics, and that is
one upgrade I have never regretted for a second, even though I've
done big tours quite happily with the original Vs.

Much easier maintenance on mechanicals? Can't really see it
myself... my hydraulic brakes have been as close to fit and forget
as a bike component gets. I need to replace the pads (very easy on
HS-33s, don't know about the various discs), and that's it.

> I also learn that hydraulic brakes have brake fluid which can leak, and
> that they are a lot fiddlier to maintain, and a lot more delicate and
> likely to fail. Is this true?


They have fluid and technically it /can/ leak, but mine don't.
Doesn't seem to bother the vast majority of cars on the road
either. Fiddlier to maintain, would be dependent on
implementation. IME hydraulic systems are certainly no fiddlier
intrinsically to maintain than mechanicals, and need a lot less
fettling to start with. A lot more delicate sounds like **** to
me: these things are used on downhill racing mountain bikes, *not*
an arena where delicacy and failure are really options that would
endear them to competitors...

> And does anyone know the difference between the Martas and the Bigs?
> What justifies the extra price on the Martas?


Lighter, I believe, though ICBW.

> I'm not quibbling on price. I will pay _whatever_is_necessary_ to get
> the product that is best for _me_. I will be using this trike to get
> down the very steep hills on my commute to work. I have never been able
> to bike these descents and have trouble even walking them, such is the
> angle. There is about a km of dizzying descent, crossed with traffic
> intersections. I _must_ be confident that I can stop.
>
> But simplicity of maintenance is as important as powerful stopping. The
> other vocation of the trike will be to come touring with me in places
> where support may not be easily found, and to be on and off planes and
> trains. If hydraulic disks are too delicate, and by failing immobilize
> the entire vehicle, then they may not justify their extra cost.


If I were you I'd get hydraulics. They're easier to use (full
power with fingertip pressure, and your fingers are better at
sensitive operations than serious heaves) and the maintenance on
good ones is a non-issue except for a once in a while bleed (every
couple of years I guess, if that) and pad change (which mechanicals
will need too). Yes, they /can/ go wrong, but so can the frame, or
the wheels, or the rack etc. Mine haven't given me any trouble
touring, and if it was a real problem they wouldn't be as popular
as they are on touring machinery.

Finally, IIRC Mr. Larrington's appraisal of mechanical disc brakes:
"a half-arsed Work of Stan". I've used hydraulic and mechanical
rim and disc brakes, and much prefer hydraulics.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
D

Duncan Smith

Guest

>
> But simplicity of maintenance is as important as powerful stopping. The
> other vocation of the trike will be to come touring with me in places
> where support may not be easily found, and to be on and off planes and
> trains. If hydraulic disks are too delicate, and by failing immobilize
> the entire vehicle, then they may not justify their extra cost.
>


I've had an Avid mech bb7 on the front of my (non-recumb.) road bike
for the best part of a year. It's got plenty of stopping power, even
when fully laden with panniers, etc., and I trust it enough not to
bother with a rear brake. I haven't had to go near the cable
adjustment yet - the only servicing I do is to spray and wipe down the
pads/rotor with fluid and do some minor adjustment to the pads with
the speed dial every now and again - maybe once a fortnight or so.
Quite happy with them so far.

Regards,

Duncan
 
T

Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman

Guest
Artemisia wrote:
> I've been assuming all along that the brakes I would get on my new HPV
> Scorpion would be the Magura Big Hydraulic disc. I made this assumption
> because in the _Greenspeed_ customisation guide, these are given as the
> best choice for heavy riders in terms of max stopping power and subtlety
> of control. Greenspeed, unlike HPV, doesn't offer either the Martas or
> the Avids.
>
> Now I've been reading up on the competition, and have become confused.
> The Avid mechanical brakes are what come as standard. I've done some
> googling on these and have found the most incredibly consistent series
> of rave reviews. The consensus out there seems to be - people who fork
> out extra for hydraulic discs are plain stupid or misguided, the Avids
> are so good as to be unbeatable on function at a much lower price and
> much easier maintenance.
>
> I also learn that hydraulic brakes have brake fluid which can leak, and
> that they are a lot fiddlier to maintain, and a lot more delicate and
> likely to fail. Is this true?
>
> And does anyone know the difference between the Martas and the Bigs?
> What justifies the extra price on the Martas?
>
> I'm not quibbling on price. I will pay _whatever_is_necessary_ to get
> the product that is best for _me_. I will be using this trike to get
> down the very steep hills on my commute to work. I have never been able
> to bike these descents and have trouble even walking them, such is the
> angle. There is about a km of dizzying descent, crossed with traffic
> intersections. I _must_ be confident that I can stop.
>
> But simplicity of maintenance is as important as powerful stopping. The
> other vocation of the trike will be to come touring with me in places
> where support may not be easily found, and to be on and off planes and
> trains. If hydraulic disks are too delicate, and by failing immobilize
> the entire vehicle, then they may not justify their extra cost.
>
> Thanks for your experiences. Cheers,


I can lock up both from wheels on dry pavement with the Avid mechanical
disc brakes on my trike. The feel is mushy compared to a good hydraulic
system, however.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
A Real Cyclist [TM] keeps at least one bicycle in the bedroom.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
 
R

roger merriman

Guest
On 29 Aug, 05:03, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Artemisia wrote:
> > I've been assuming all along that the brakes I would get on my new HPV
> > Scorpion would be the Magura Big Hydraulic disc. I made this assumption
> > because in the _Greenspeed_ customisation guide, these are given as the
> > best choice for heavy riders in terms of max stopping power and subtlety
> > of control. Greenspeed, unlike HPV, doesn't offer either the Martas or
> > the Avids.

>
> > Now I've been reading up on the competition, and have become confused.
> > The Avid mechanical brakes are what come as standard. I've done some
> > googling on these and have found the most incredibly consistent series
> > of rave reviews. The consensus out there seems to be - people who fork
> > out extra for hydraulic discs are plain stupid or misguided, the Avids
> > are so good as to be unbeatable on function at a much lower price and
> > much easier maintenance.

>
> > I also learn that hydraulic brakes have brake fluid which can leak, and
> > that they are a lot fiddlier to maintain, and a lot more delicate and
> > likely to fail. Is this true?

>
> > And does anyone know the difference between the Martas and the Bigs?
> > What justifies the extra price on the Martas?

>
> > I'm not quibbling on price. I will pay _whatever_is_necessary_ to get
> > the product that is best for _me_. I will be using this trike to get
> > down the very steep hills on my commute to work. I have never been able
> > to bike these descents and have trouble even walking them, such is the
> > angle. There is about a km of dizzying descent, crossed with traffic
> > intersections. I _must_ be confident that I can stop.

>
> > But simplicity of maintenance is as important as powerful stopping. The
> > other vocation of the trike will be to come touring with me in places
> > where support may not be easily found, and to be on and off planes and
> > trains. If hydraulic disks are too delicate, and by failing immobilize
> > the entire vehicle, then they may not justify their extra cost.

>
> > Thanks for your experiences. Cheers,

>
> I can lock up both from wheels on dry pavement with the Avid mechanical
> disc brakes on my trike. The feel is mushy compared to a good hydraulic
> system, however.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> A Real Cyclist [TM] keeps at least one bicycle in the bedroom.
>


Thing is though that locking the wheels is one thing, stopping fast
and safely is another, my cheap hybrid can lock it's wheels, but i
would regard is brakes as poor, in that it wouldn't stop in hurry at
speed, while my moutain bikes will, which considering the rubber on
the road i'd probably struggle to lock wheels up.

like the other day had to do a emergency stop, squeeling of tires on
hot road but not locking.

roger
 
P

Peter Clinch

Guest
roger merriman wrote:

> Thing is though that locking the wheels is one thing, stopping fast
> and safely is another, my cheap hybrid can lock it's wheels, but i
> would regard is brakes as poor, in that it wouldn't stop in hurry at
> speed, while my moutain bikes will, which considering the rubber on
> the road i'd probably struggle to lock wheels up.


Indeed. And this is where hydraulics are better IMHO, as they let you
have high power combined with very sensitive fingertip control.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
C

CoyoteBoy

Guest
On 29 Aug, 09:57, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
> roger merriman wrote:
> > Thing is though that locking the wheels is one thing, stopping fast
> > and safely is another, my cheap hybrid can lock it's wheels, but i
> > would regard is brakes as poor, in that it wouldn't stop in hurry at
> > speed, while my moutain bikes will, which considering the rubber on
> > the road i'd probably struggle to lock wheels up.

>
> Indeed. And this is where hydraulics are better IMHO, as they let you
> have high power combined with very sensitive fingertip control.


I'm fairly sure its the cable stretch and binding alone that causes it
- with hydro it just releases the pressure and hence force, with
cables you have to overcome friction and stretch as well.
 
P

Peter Clinch

Guest
CoyoteBoy wrote:

> I'm fairly sure its the cable stretch and binding alone that causes it
> - with hydro it just releases the pressure and hence force, with
> cables you have to overcome friction and stretch as well.


I agree. Having recently re-cabled my Brompton's brakes and changed it
from potential death trap to bike with fair brakes I'm very aware of
just how much cables can degrade. But the hydrualics on the 'bent are
still beautifully responsive 3 years after putting them on

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
C

Clive George

Guest
"Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> CoyoteBoy wrote:
>
>> I'm fairly sure its the cable stretch and binding alone that causes it
>> - with hydro it just releases the pressure and hence force, with
>> cables you have to overcome friction and stretch as well.

>
> I agree. Having recently re-cabled my Brompton's brakes and changed it
> from potential death trap to bike with fair brakes I'm very aware of
> just how much cables can degrade. But the hydrualics on the 'bent are
> still beautifully responsive 3 years after putting them on


If they behave as well as those on our tandem, they'll still be good 10
years after fitting.

But the magura rim brakes are closed, and the tolerances can be much
greater - there's loads of room for eg pad movement. With an open disc
system, you introduce the joy of eg bleeding the damn things, and there's
less margin for error. When I manage to let the smoke out of the hydraulic
discs on the MTB tandem, they work very well - but the rim brakes are
fit-and-forget in the way the discs distinctly aren't :-(

(still probably wouldn't have cables though)

cheers,
clive
 
C

CoyoteBoy

Guest
On 29 Aug, 15:16, "Clive George" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]
>
> > CoyoteBoy wrote:

>
> >> I'm fairly sure its the cable stretch and binding alone that causes it
> >> - with hydro it just releases the pressure and hence force, with
> >> cables you have to overcome friction and stretch as well.

>
> > I agree. Having recently re-cabled my Brompton's brakes and changed it
> > from potential death trap to bike with fair brakes I'm very aware of
> > just how much cables can degrade. But the hydrualics on the 'bent are
> > still beautifully responsive 3 years after putting them on

>
> If they behave as well as those on our tandem, they'll still be good 10
> years after fitting.
>
> But the magura rim brakes are closed, and the tolerances can be much
> greater - there's loads of room for eg pad movement. With an open disc
> system, you introduce the joy of eg bleeding the damn things, and there's
> less margin for error. When I manage to let the smoke out of the hydraulic
> discs on the MTB tandem, they work very well - but the rim brakes are
> fit-and-forget in the way the discs distinctly aren't :-(
>
> (still probably wouldn't have cables though)
>
> cheers,
> clive


What the hell have you been doing to your discs? Why would you need to
bleed you discs unless you've damaged them? What error do you need
margin for? I found HS33s lose their bite when you run low on pad and
have to adjust them out to meet the rim. Plus they are a pain in the
**** when you buckle a rim which is far more frequent than buckling a
rotor?
 
P

Paul Boyd

Guest
Clive George said the following on 29/08/2007 15:16:

> but the rim
> brakes are fit-and-forget in the way the discs distinctly aren't :-(


Nothing against your opinion personally, but I've seen this sort of view
expressed before and I'm a bit puzzled by it. I fitted my hydraulic
disc brakes ages ago, and I've forgotten about them ever since. With
hydraulic disc brakes there's far less to go wrong than with any cable
brakes (can you even still get open systems?), and they just keep
working. They may need to be bled once every so often, but cables need
maintenance more than once every so often. All brakes need pads/blocks
replaced periodically, so I'm genuinely interested in why you think
discs aren't "fit and forget".

> (still probably wouldn't have cables though)


Agreed. I have had cables, then hydraulics, and the "feel" of the two
is worlds apart.

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
 
M

Marz

Guest
On Aug 28, 1:14 pm, Artemisia <[email protected]> wrote:
> Now I've been reading up on the competition, and have become confused.
> The Avid mechanical brakes are what come as standard. I've done some
> googling on these and have found the most incredibly consistent series
> of rave reviews. The consensus out there seems to be - people who fork
> out extra for hydraulic discs are plain stupid or misguided, the Avids
> are so good as to be unbeatable on function at a much lower price and
> much easier maintenance.
>

Sounds like your consensus views are coming from folks who can't
afford hydraulic brakes and therefore **** 'em off. Hydraulic brakes
offer better control and braking consistency than mechanical brakes
and if set up properly in the first place,require less maintainence.
The only plus side to mechanicals could be the ability to fix them out
in the field if something breaks.
 
C

Clive George

Guest
"Paul Boyd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Clive George said the following on 29/08/2007 15:16:
>
>> but the rim brakes are fit-and-forget in the way the discs distinctly
>> aren't :-(

>
> Nothing against your opinion personally, but I've seen this sort of view
> expressed before and I'm a bit puzzled by it.


That's because you carefully snipped the bit where I said "magura rim
brakes". You do know that magura don't make cable brakes, don't you? Their
hydraulic rim brakes have been around for ages now.

> I fitted my hydraulic disc brakes ages ago, and I've forgotten about them
> ever since.

....
> They may need to be bled once every so often


That isn't "forgotten about them". I've never opened the rim brake
internals - and they are 10 years old now.

> All brakes need pads/blocks replaced periodically, so I'm genuinely
> interested in why you think discs aren't "fit and forget".


Compared to the magura rim brakes, they aren't IME. That's it.

cheers,
clive
 
P

Peter Clinch

Guest
Marz wrote:

> Sounds like your consensus views are coming from folks who can't
> afford hydraulic brakes and therefore **** 'em off.


I suspect it's more the owner moves to cable discs from an older
rim setup with fairly old cables and immediately thinks "bloody
'ell, these are a lot better!", and of course they are. Beyond
that one is inclined to think "but hey, I can lock the wheels with
these so I've got all the power I want, what more do you need?".
That's what I thought when I decided to save money on not getting
HS-33s going through the option list on the Streetmachine, and I
was happy with mechanical Vs on it for quite a while.
But I got a bit of Bling Envy when Roos bought her 'bent so I
treated mine to a brake upgrade. And wished I'd bought the
hydraulics in the first place. The feel and control is just
/sooooooooo/ much better.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
M

Marz

Guest
On Aug 29, 12:21 pm, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
> Marz wrote:
> > Sounds like your consensus views are coming from folks who can't
> > afford hydraulic brakes and therefore **** 'em off.

>
> I suspect it's more the owner moves to cable discs from an older
> rim setup with fairly old cables and immediately thinks "bloody
> 'ell, these are a lot better!", and of course they are. Beyond
> that one is inclined to think "but hey, I can lock the wheels with
> these so I've got all the power I want, what more do you need?".
> That's what I thought when I decided to save money on not getting
> HS-33s going through the option list on the Streetmachine, and I
> was happy with mechanical Vs on it for quite a while.
> But I got a bit of Bling Envy when Roos bought her 'bent so I
> treated mine to a brake upgrade. And wished I'd bought the
> hydraulics in the first place. The feel and control is just
> /sooooooooo/ much better.
>
> Pete.
> --
> Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
> Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
> Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
> net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/


I still miss my HS-33s on my mountain bike, which to be honest, were
as good (if not better) than the hayes disks I run today. It was just
that when things got muddy the HS-33s could get bunged up pretty
quickly and collect enough mud to stop the wheels.
 
P

Paul Boyd

Guest
On 29/08/2007 18:18, Clive George said,

> That's because you carefully snipped the bit where I said "magura rim
> brakes". You do know that magura don't make cable brakes, don't you?
> Their hydraulic rim brakes have been around for ages now.


Are we talking at crossed purposes here? You said "but the rim brakes
are fit-and-forget in the way the discs distinctly aren't". I know you
were talking about the Magura rim brakes as being fit and forget - that
wasn't in question, but you said that disc brakes aren't. I was just
curious as to why you thought disc brakes weren't fit and forget - if
you haven't had to touch them in 10 years (apart from pads, presumably)
then you've now partly explained it.

However, I haven't had hydraulic disc brakes for 10 years, so I can't
comment on whether I would actually need to bleed them every so often or
not - I haven't had to in 12 months. I've just heard that they should
be bled every couple of years. Like Magura though, Shimano use a closed
system filled with mineral oil, so in theory they should never need
bleeding, and my POV is that I'll only bleed them if they get spongy.
To me, that is fit and forget, but I'll let you know in 9 years time :)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
 
C

Clive George

Guest
"coyoteboy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Paul Boyd wrote:
>>(can you even still get open systems?), and they just keep

>
> Lots of the top end systems are open - its how they get automatic pad wear
> adjustment. Certainly most of the systems I've seen on the trail have been
> open - closed just makes no sense - need to adjust pad on the fly and back
> it off if you heat the caliper up.


Indeed. If you get your brakes hot, closed doesn't work. And I got that on
hardly any hill at all. But then this was on a tandem.

>> working. They may need to be bled once every so often, but cables need
>> maintenance more than once every so often. All brakes need pads/blocks
>> replaced periodically, so I'm genuinely interested in why you think discs
>> aren't "fit and forget".

>
> And if you want to bleed them, which isnt really needed for a decade at a
> time, you just lob a piece of hose on the nipple, take the top off the
> caliper and squeeze, undo, tighten, release a few times and its done - not
> even as complex as replacing a cable!


Hmm. I'm guessing you've never bled a set of Hopes then. I've done one end
of ours, and it was a right pain, even with the bleeding kit.

One problem is them using DOT brake fluid. I _hate_ DOT brake fluid. (My car
doesn't use it either...). It needs changing in a way that the mineral oil
doesn't - 2 years, not 10.

I guess if I had Magura disks, some of my complaints may go away. (Shimano's
a no-no based on the use we give them).

The reason I say the discs aren't fit and forget in the same way as the
magura rims is that I have had to do this sort of **** on them, whereas the
rims have been sealed since I fitted them 10 years ago, and have never given
any problems.

There is another question though : is it worth the hassle? And the answer
for the MTB tandem is definitely yes. Can't tell for the road tandem since
nobody makes suitable hydraulic discs...

(Paul - does this answer your question too?)

cheers,
clive