Which Brakes? Avid Mechanical Disc? Magura Big or Marta HydraulicDisc?



P

Peter Clinch

Guest
Artemisia wrote:

> Actually I wear the gloves always, even when not cycling. My balance
> is so bad that I have to be constantly grabbing at things - stair
> bannisters, bollards, traffic signs - to stay upright when walking in
> the street, and I'd rather have the filth accumulate on the gloves
> than on my hands. Fortunately they're very washable and fast-drying.
>
> OTOH, what about the head lid on the Scorpion? Carol Hague told me she
> never wears a helmet on her Greenspeeds as the kind of head injury one
> would get from tipping off an upright just isn't going to happen.


You wear gloves all the time, do you wear a helmet all the time?

If not, note you're in a similar danger of head injury when riding as
when walking, so if you manage when walking without one, you can manage
without one cycling. And on a trike you can't spontaneously fall over
even if you try!

> all the darth websites show the people on the trikes in head-lids


It's more a demographic of the sort of people who ride 'bent trikes.
Greenspeeds are most often photographed in Oz where they're compulsory,
for example. In the UK and US there is a tendency for Serious Cyclists
to wear lids more as they assume it makes good sense (it /does/ until
you actually read the research which shows there's basically no effect
on serious injuries...) and it's Serious Cyclists who invest a small
fortune on 'bent trikes.

> there is always my superstitious fear of riding unlidded.


Then carry a St. Christopher instead.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
R

Roger Merriman

Guest
Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:

> Artemisia wrote:
>
> > Actually I wear the gloves always, even when not cycling. My balance
> > is so bad that I have to be constantly grabbing at things - stair
> > bannisters, bollards, traffic signs - to stay upright when walking in
> > the street, and I'd rather have the filth accumulate on the gloves
> > than on my hands. Fortunately they're very washable and fast-drying.
> >
> > OTOH, what about the head lid on the Scorpion? Carol Hague told me she
> > never wears a helmet on her Greenspeeds as the kind of head injury one
> > would get from tipping off an upright just isn't going to happen.

>
> You wear gloves all the time, do you wear a helmet all the time?
>
> If not, note you're in a similar danger of head injury when riding as
> when walking, so if you manage when walking without one, you can manage
> without one cycling. And on a trike you can't spontaneously fall over
> even if you try!


that is good point.
>
> > all the darth websites show the people on the trikes in head-lids

>
> It's more a demographic of the sort of people who ride 'bent trikes.
> Greenspeeds are most often photographed in Oz where they're compulsory,
> for example. In the UK and US there is a tendency for Serious Cyclists
> to wear lids more as they assume it makes good sense (it /does/ until
> you actually read the research which shows there's basically no effect
> on serious injuries...) and it's Serious Cyclists who invest a small
> fortune on 'bent trikes.


yes though intrestly folks carry the helmets when on grass etc, often
see folks in bushy park say with the helmet dangling from where ever.

i keep meaning to go and have a go on bent trike, which will happen one
day along with the other things..
>
> > there is always my superstitious fear of riding unlidded.

>
> Then carry a St. Christopher instead.
>
> Pete.



roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com
 
M

Mark McNeill

Guest
Response to Artemisia:
> So Dark Siders, do you ride with lids?


No. I'm even less likely to fall out of a low chair than I am to fall
over when walking or on an upright bike; and those risks are very low
indeed to start with.


--
Mark, UK
"How many things which served us yesterday as articles of faith, are
fables for us today."
 
D

David Damerell

Guest
Quoting Roger Merriman <[email protected]>:
>David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote:
>>I've ridden down every hill in the country [1] with two people's lard to
>>brake and only one person's air resistance. It still wasn't my fingers
>>that were tired at the end of each day.

>on the road brakes really are less of a issue,


This is typical of this sort of discussion. What starts as an unqualified
"X is best" turns out to be "X is best off-road on a Sunday with your
underpants on your head", or whatever else doesn't fit the experience of
whoever is replying.

Why not _mention_ that from the start?

>useing the brakes a bit feel not a attaully twinge. unlike off road
>where decending with old bikes and old brakes by the time you'd reached
>the bottom you can feel it in your forearms, if you mostly ride on road
>then you not need to brake for as long nor as hard.


That depends. A tandem often needs a lot more braking.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Distortion Field!
Today is Second Tuesday, August.
 
D

David Damerell

Guest
Quoting Peter Clinch <[email protected]>:
>David Damerell wrote:
>>I never understood the "big heave" argument. At the end of a day on the
>>bike, it's not my fingers that are tired!

>Nor are mine, but during use hydraulics are more pleasant because you
>don't need to heave right there and then,


This just doesn't make sense. The difference between moderate and light
hand force is completely trivial.

>I never understood the arguments for hydraulics before I used them.
>Having used them somewhat by accident (a demo 'bent had some HS11s on),
>I bought some, and have never regretted it. They are simply much better
>in use than cable brakes IME.


I've used them during a demo too, and this is one of those strange senses
of "better" that doesn't actually mean "better". Cable brakes stop the
bike and with a sensible setup (hem-hem ie not some horrible grabby V
setup) they are nicely predictable.

I suspect this is the usual problem where a bad setup (eg, grabby Vs) is
compared with a good one and the difference is ascribed to the underlying
technology not the setup. That's particularly likely here because it's
obviously jolly hard to get a hydraulic setup that has that particular
problem.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Distortion Field!
Today is Second Tuesday, August.
 
P

Peter Clinch

Guest
David Damerell wrote:

> This is typical of this sort of discussion. What starts as an unqualified
> "X is best" turns out to be "X is best off-road on a Sunday with your
> underpants on your head", or whatever else doesn't fit the experience of
> whoever is replying.
>
> Why not _mention_ that from the start?


I use my hydraulic brakes on the road. Though they do get off road,
it's only as far as I get with a recumbent tourer, which isn't serious
off-road and only by way of getting to another road.

And I use them because IME they are a lot nicer in use than cable
brakes, and I didn't think they would be any better until I tried them,
and it was trying them that caused me to buy some.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
P

Peter Clinch

Guest
David Damerell wrote:

> This just doesn't make sense. The difference between moderate and light
> hand force is completely trivial.


So that's why all the best game controllers use heavy joysticks?

> I've used them during a demo too, and this is one of those strange senses
> of "better" that doesn't actually mean "better".


No, it's where better means nicer, and most of us think nicer is better.

> Cable brakes stop the
> bike and with a sensible setup (hem-hem ie not some horrible grabby V
> setup) they are nicely predictable.


They are, but they're still not as nice to use as hydraulics. Just as
is the case with power and manual steering on a small car. There's no
particular problem driving a small car without power steering, but
pretty much everyone prefers power steering.

> I suspect this is the usual problem where a bad setup (eg, grabby Vs) is
> compared with a good one and the difference is ascribed to the underlying
> technology not the setup.


No, it's moving from one demo bike with well set up cable brakes
(typically Avid disks) before the cables have degraded to a bike with
hydraulics and just finding they're nicer because they can be used
better with just fingertip pressure.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
D

David Damerell

Guest
Quoting Peter Clinch <[email protected]>:
>David Damerell wrote:
>>This is typical of this sort of discussion. What starts as an unqualified
>>"X is best" turns out to be "X is best off-road on a Sunday with your
>>underpants on your head", or whatever else doesn't fit the experience of
>>whoever is replying.

>I use my hydraulic brakes on the road.


Right, but I was responding to Roger Merriman, whose "hydraulic brakes
stop you getting tired hands" (which is bunk) has morphed into "hydraulic
brakes stop you getting tired hands off-road" (which might well be bunk,
but I wouldn't know).
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Distortion Field!
Today is Second Tuesday, August.
 
D

David Damerell

Guest
Quoting Peter Clinch <[email protected]>:
>David Damerell wrote:
>>This just doesn't make sense. The difference between moderate and light
>>hand force is completely trivial.

>So that's why all the best game controllers use heavy joysticks?


Conversely, most PC joysticks are big chunky things - and, guess what,
it's easier to fine tune adjustment when "hard over" isn't a centimetre
away from "dead centre" and you can't do "hard over" just by flicking it.

>hydraulics and just finding they're nicer because they can be used
>better with just fingertip pressure.


So what's better about fingertips versus a gentle pull with the fingers?
You might as well prefer them because they come in your favourite colour.

Preferring a brake that doesn't make you squeeze like you're using one of
those hand exercisers makes perfect sense, but once you get down to a
moderate pressure that doesn't give you sore hands at the end of the day,
well, less pressure than that is just an arbitary personal preference.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Distortion Field!
Today is Second Tuesday, August.
 
R

Roger Merriman

Guest
David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote:

> Quoting Roger Merriman <[email protected]>:
> >David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>I've ridden down every hill in the country [1] with two people's lard to
> >>brake and only one person's air resistance. It still wasn't my fingers
> >>that were tired at the end of each day.

> >on the road brakes really are less of a issue,

>
> This is typical of this sort of discussion. What starts as an unqualified
> "X is best" turns out to be "X is best off-road on a Sunday with your
> underpants on your head", or whatever else doesn't fit the experience of
> whoever is replying.
>
> Why not _mention_ that from the start?


not sure it was terribly needed, after all mountain bikes have strived
for bigger better etc brakes while there hasn't been such a pressing
need on road. that off road pushes brakes more is pritty much a given.
>
> >useing the brakes a bit feel not a attaully twinge. unlike off road
> >where decending with old bikes and old brakes by the time you'd reached
> >the bottom you can feel it in your forearms, if you mostly ride on road
> >then you not need to brake for as long nor as hard.

>
> That depends. A tandem often needs a lot more braking.


yes, though probably not as much as mountain bike.

roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com
 
C

Clive George

Guest
"Roger Merriman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1i3q9v6.hww1nv1ylxv0rN%[email protected]

>> That depends. A tandem often needs a lot more braking.

>
> yes, though probably not as much as mountain bike.


Mmm. You may well be understimating the effects of the doubled weight,
similar frontal area and ability to put the brakes on as hard as you like
without fear of an endo...

cheers,
clive
 
P

Paul Boyd

Guest
David Damerell said the following on 31/08/2007 14:18:

> I've used them during a demo too, and this is one of those strange senses
> of "better" that doesn't actually mean "better". Cable brakes stop the
> bike and with a sensible setup (hem-hem ie not some horrible grabby V
> setup) they are nicely predictable.


Have you actually used hydraulic brakes extensively in a variety of
situations, or just on this demo? Peter summed it up quite nicely:-
"better means nicer, and most of us think nicer is better"

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
 
R

Roger Merriman

Guest
Clive George <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Roger Merriman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:1i3q9v6.hww1nv1ylxv0rN%[email protected]
>
> >> That depends. A tandem often needs a lot more braking.

> >
> > yes, though probably not as much as mountain bike.

>
> Mmm. You may well be understimating the effects of the doubled weight,
> similar frontal area and ability to put the brakes on as hard as you like
> without fear of an endo...
>
> cheers,
> clive


i can't rember the last time i did a endo, by braking, probably when i
was a kid. normally the tires loose traction way before that point at
least on a mounatin bike, i grew up in a steep sided gorge thus one gets
used to shifting weight for braking etc, and hill starts in cars as well
it must be said.

i would expect a tamdem to require much more braking than a single. but
most tamdems are used onroad which is a much less demanding than
mountain bikes use (1) plus i guess the market for tamdems is smaller so
doesn't get the money poured in that the mountain bikes do.

roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com
 
C

Clive George

Guest
"Roger Merriman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1i3ralr.ljo91213p8q4hN%[email protected]
> Clive George <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> "Roger Merriman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:1i3q9v6.hww1nv1ylxv0rN%[email protected]
>>
>> >> That depends. A tandem often needs a lot more braking.
>> >
>> > yes, though probably not as much as mountain bike.

>>
>> Mmm. You may well be understimating the effects of the doubled weight,
>> similar frontal area and ability to put the brakes on as hard as you like
>> without fear of an endo...

>
> i can't rember the last time i did a endo, by braking, probably when i
> was a kid. normally the tires loose traction way before that point at
> least on a mounatin bike, i grew up in a steep sided gorge thus one gets
> used to shifting weight for braking etc, and hill starts in cars as well
> it must be said.
>
> i would expect a tamdem to require much more braking than a single. but
> most tamdems are used onroad which is a much less demanding than
> mountain bikes use (1) plus i guess the market for tamdems is smaller so
> doesn't get the money poured in that the mountain bikes do.


An impressive post, wrong in quite so many ways :)

Here's the deal:

You've learned not to endo, through a combination of weight shifting and
controlling the braking required. Tandems don't need that, especially on
road, which means you can abuse the brakes rather more than you can on an
MTB.
The enemy of brakes is heat. Brakes which cope with MTBing fine will die
when used by a tandem, even on road - there really is that much more energy
available.

Check out Santana's brake testing results, and the brakes SJSC will
recommend you use on a tandem - these people have tried it, and know just
how much abuse a tandem can provide for brakes :)

And while you're there, check out the prices and consider your "money poured
in" comment (even though it's amusingly bogus :) )

cheers,
clive
 
R

Roger Merriman

Guest
Clive George <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Roger Merriman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:1i3ralr.ljo91213p8q4hN%[email protected]
> > Clive George <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> "Roger Merriman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:1i3q9v6.hww1nv1ylxv0rN%[email protected]
> >>
> >> >> That depends. A tandem often needs a lot more braking.
> >> >
> >> > yes, though probably not as much as mountain bike.
> >>
> >> Mmm. You may well be understimating the effects of the doubled weight,
> >> similar frontal area and ability to put the brakes on as hard as you like
> >> without fear of an endo...

> >
> > i can't rember the last time i did a endo, by braking, probably when i
> > was a kid. normally the tires loose traction way before that point at
> > least on a mounatin bike, i grew up in a steep sided gorge thus one gets
> > used to shifting weight for braking etc, and hill starts in cars as well
> > it must be said.
> >
> > i would expect a tamdem to require much more braking than a single. but
> > most tamdems are used onroad which is a much less demanding than
> > mountain bikes use (1) plus i guess the market for tamdems is smaller so
> > doesn't get the money poured in that the mountain bikes do.

>
> An impressive post, wrong in quite so many ways :)
>
> Here's the deal:
>
> You've learned not to endo, through a combination of weight shifting and
> controlling the braking required. Tandems don't need that, especially on
> road, which means you can abuse the brakes rather more than you can on an
> MTB.
> The enemy of brakes is heat. Brakes which cope with MTBing fine will die
> when used by a tandem, even on road - there really is that much more energy
> available.
>

okay fair enought.

> Check out Santana's brake testing results, and the brakes SJSC will
> recommend you use on a tandem - these people have tried it, and know just
> how much abuse a tandem can provide for brakes :)
>

which begs the other question if tamdems have allways or for a reasonble
time had half decent brakes why did it not filter to mountain bikes?
racing bikes i can get as weight etc.

> And while you're there, check out the prices and consider your "money poured
> in" comment (even though it's amusingly bogus :) )
>

thats was about companies than indivuals. ie lots of mountain bikes thus
bigger market etc.

> cheers,
> clive


roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com
 
C

CoyoteBoy

Guest
On 3 Sep, 01:03, "Clive George" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Roger Merriman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Check out Santana's brake testing results, and the brakes SJSC will


"Experienced bike mechanics
tighten a seatpost binder bolt just enough so that they can't rotate
the saddle with one hand."

If I did that I'd be forever re-adjusting my saddle! Can see their
point with carbon posts though.
 
T

Tony Raven

Guest
[email protected] (Roger Merriman) wrote in
news:1i3utrf.1u1ejivhmpn9wN%[email protected]:
>
>> [...]

> which begs the other question if tamdems have allways or for a reasonble
> time had half decent brakes why did it not filter to mountain bikes?
> racing bikes i can get as weight etc.
>


You can fit an Arai drag brake to you mountain bike if you want but its the
wrong sort of tool. On tandems they have been used for years to scrub off
the main speed on downhills in a "constantly on" mode with the normal
brakes used to do the rest.
http://www.precisiontandems.com/arai.htm


--
Tony

" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell
 
R

Roger Merriman

Guest
Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:

> [email protected] (Roger Merriman) wrote in
> news:1i3utrf.1u1ejivhmpn9wN%[email protected]:
> >
> >> [...]

> > which begs the other question if tamdems have allways or for a reasonble
> > time had half decent brakes why did it not filter to mountain bikes?
> > racing bikes i can get as weight etc.
> >

>
> You can fit an Arai drag brake to you mountain bike if you want but its the
> wrong sort of tool. On tandems they have been used for years to scrub off
> the main speed on downhills in a "constantly on" mode with the normal
> brakes used to do the rest.
> http://www.precisiontandems.com/arai.htm


indeed, the chances of attaully heating a rim or disk on normal bike
seem slim. and attaully looking and tamdems they seem to have bog
standurd brakes, mostly V brakes with the drum to assist. does also beg
the question if heat is a problem then why use the rim with the risks
that come with that. but use a disk where if it gets hot it shouldn't
cause any problems bar brake fade.

does suggest that braking is heat rather than stronger brakes, for the
tamdems.

roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com
 
P

Paul Boyd

Guest
Roger Merriman said the following on 03/09/2007 12:19:

> indeed, the chances of attaully heating a rim or disk on normal bike
> seem slim.


Are you serious?

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
 
T

Tony Raven

Guest
[email protected] (Roger Merriman) wrote in
news:1i3v58y.5ykd2y1onief8N%[email protected]:

> Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> [...]

>
> indeed, the chances of attaully heating a rim or disk on normal bike
> seem slim.


Not slim at all on a long descent

> and attaully looking and tamdems they seem to have bog
> standurd brakes, mostly V brakes with the drum to assist. does also beg
> the question if heat is a problem then why use the rim with the risks
> that come with that. but use a disk where if it gets hot it shouldn't
> cause any problems bar brake fade.
>
> does suggest that braking is heat rather than stronger brakes, for the
> tamdems.
>


You can use disks but you need them designed for tandem heat loads that
most of them are not. A disk could not be used with a drum on the rear
wheel because the drum takes up the disk space - so you are going to need
a rim brake on the back anyway - unlike singles rear brakes are effective
on tandems. So that leaves you with just a front disk.

--
Tony

" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell