Which GPS

In a recent message <[email hidden]>, Mike
Brockhurst <[email hidden]> wrote.

Quoted message said:

Finally my wife has promised me that elusive GPS for Christmas

[...]

Quoted message said:

Budget is around £150 maximum so which one is best. I've looked at and
am impressed by the Geko 301 with the Magellan Sportak close behind.
When considering which one I can tell you I have Memory Map to use to
plot routes so is there a preferred one bearing in mind I will want to
utilise all my MM's.

[...]

I have a Geko 301 that I use for walking and I'm very pleased with it,
the only slight niggle is battery life, about 7 or 8 hours from a
fully-charged set of NiMH cells, so I always carry a spare set. But of
course, battery life is a trade-off against weight and on the whole the
lighter the better.

Myself, I use Fugawi, but I'm sure that MM will be fine with the 301. By
the way, my advice is don't plot routes, plot your route as a track, you
have a lot more track points than waypoints. I'm off on a walk tomorrow,
only about 25 km, and I've plotted my route in Fugawi using about 200
track points. When I'm walking I set the scale of the plotter screen
such that 1 cm on the screen equals about 80 meters on the ground, then
all I have to do is to keep the little marching man icon on the track
and I know I haven't deviated from my route [1]. It's just like a moving
map. In fact, it *is* a moving map. Pop a waypoint on the track every 1
km or so, just to make it easy to keep some idea of where you are and
Bob's your uncle. Print the map showing the track and the waypoints of
course and pop it in a plastic bag for consultation when required (not
often, in my experience).

There are benefits to having a built-in compass, by the way. Under trees
or when stopped the screen will orientate itself correctly and leave you
in no doubt about which way to go. Not being a mountain man I don't use
the altimeter for navigation, but it does provide the most
extraordinarily accurate record of ones ups and downs after it has
calibrated itself; rarely more than a couple of metres out.

[1] Footpaths on OS-maps are quite often shown up to 50 metres in error
in places, so I don't normally start to worry until the Geko tells me
that I'm at least this distance off-track.

Regards,
Nick.

--
Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton
Caversham, Reading, England
<[email hidden]>

The message <[email hidden]>
from "Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The Summit is a right pain. I have just moved on to a Vista C.

Quoted message said:

Glad to hear that Roger. Are you happy with your purchase?

I think so. It is a bit early to be sure as I have yet to learn how to
use most of the clever bits. The one niggle I have so far is that it
sometimes refused to respond to the click stick but that might be
because I lean on it a bit too heavily.

It's a pleasure to just forget about the memory disappearing faster than
free drinks at a party. Todays trip used just 29% of the memory and that
included the final 10 odd miles driving as well as the walk.

Like the Summit I think the ascent record is effected by wind. MemoryMap
had todays walk at 2497 feet and while I expected it to be a bit higher
as I took a more direct line across a couple of valleys than originally
planned I didn't expect it to double (4959 feet of ascent) even though I
was feeling a bit knackered by the end of the walk.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 89 summits
New - 61 (Marilyns 14, Sweats 5, Outlying Fells 49)
Repeats - 28 (Marilyns 11, Sweats 21, Wainwrights 16, Outlying Fells 1)

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful person
Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> said

Quoted message said:

Roger said:

The Summit is a right pain. I have just moved on to a Vista C.

Glad to hear that Roger. Are you happy with your purchase?

Second question, how does it do under trees and in 'difficult'
conditions?

I'm already thinking about my next upgrade (from a Venture) but unless
the 'Colour' models have fixed the dodgy lock problem I'll go with the
(huge, heavy, expensive) 60C instead.

When the Venture sees two leaves and loses lock, it can take an =age= to
regain it, especially if you keep moving. It also has a very noticeable
'inertia' (or 'momentum'😉 effect if you make a (sharp) 90 degree turn ..
it'll turn it into some huge radius arc before finally admitting you are
headed in the new direction).

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Outgoing Msgs are Turing Tested,and indistinguishable from human typing.

Paul Saunders said:

Steve said:

I've just got the Garmin Foretrex 201.

Never heard of that one, or never noticed.

Reasonably new I believe, seen a few ads in the magazines (e.g. Trail)
recently. I'd had a look at a Forerunner before, a bloke in the runnning
club has one.

This is very similar in form factor, a few minor differences in functions.

I'm extremely pleased with it.

Steve

Nick Hopton said:

[1] Footpaths on OS-maps are quite often shown up to 50 metres in
error in places, so I don't normally start to worry until the Geko
tells me that I'm at least this distance off-track.

People who have got their datum set wrong usually complain about
everything being 50m out...

Someone else tell him please... ;-)

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

The message <[email hidden]>
from GSV Three Minds in a Can <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The Summit is a right pain. I have just moved on to a Vista C.

Glad to hear that Roger. Are you happy with your purchase?

Quoted message said:

Second question, how does it do under trees and in 'difficult'
conditions?

I don't know as yet. I tend to walk in areas where there is a severe
absence of trees. I suspect that the aerial is common across the whole
range.

Quoted message said:

I'm already thinking about my next upgrade (from a Venture) but unless
the 'Colour' models have fixed the dodgy lock problem I'll go with the
(huge, heavy, expensive) 60C instead.

Quoted message said:

When the Venture sees two leaves and loses lock, it can take an =age= to
regain it, especially if you keep moving. It also has a very noticeable
'inertia' (or 'momentum'😉 effect if you make a (sharp) 90 degree turn ..
it'll turn it into some huge radius arc before finally admitting you are
headed in the new direction).

I haven't noticed that either so far but not particularly looked for it.
I have checked yesterdays track and while there are several abrupt turns
they do not look as though they were made late. What setting are you
using for trackpoints?

--
Roger
Looking North over the Aire Valley (and Marley Gasworks) to Rombolds Moor
Top Posters killfiled on sight

GSV Three Minds in a Can said:

Second question, how does it do under trees and in 'difficult'
conditions?

Probably the same as the rest of the eTrex range I'd have thought, but
not having had any experience of them.

Quoted message said:

I'm already thinking about my next upgrade (from a Venture) but unless
the 'Colour' models have fixed the dodgy lock problem I'll go with the
(huge, heavy, expensive) 60C instead.

Get some perspective Ground Support Vehicle! I chose the 60CS over the
76CS because it was so small and light!

Quoted message said:

When the Venture sees two leaves and loses lock, it can take an =age=
to regain it, especially if you keep moving.

The 60CS works well in the car because it's mounted vertically and the
aerial is designed to work best that way.

Quoted message said:

It also has a very
noticeable 'inertia' (or 'momentum'😉 effect if you make a (sharp) 90
degree turn .. it'll turn it into some huge radius arc before finally
admitting you are headed in the new direction).

I've noticed this effect on my GPS12 when zig-zagging, but it's really
quite small, it notices the direction change quite quickly. I think all
GPS units to that to a greater or lesser extent.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful
person Roger <[email hidden]> said

Quoted message said:

The message <[email hidden]>
from GSV Three Minds in a Can <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> The Summit is a right pain. I have just moved on to a Vista C.

Glad to hear that Roger. Are you happy with your purchase?

Quoted message said:

Second question, how does it do under trees and in 'difficult'
conditions?

I don't know as yet. I tend to walk in areas where there is a severe
absence of trees. I suspect that the aerial is common across the whole
range.

The antenna may be the same, but the electronics on the 'C' models are
entirely new, afaik.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm already thinking about my next upgrade (from a Venture) but unless
the 'Colour' models have fixed the dodgy lock problem I'll go with the
(huge, heavy, expensive) 60C instead.

Quoted message said:

When the Venture sees two leaves and loses lock, it can take an =age= to
regain it, especially if you keep moving. It also has a very noticeable
'inertia' (or 'momentum'😉 effect if you make a (sharp) 90 degree turn ..
it'll turn it into some huge radius arc before finally admitting you are
headed in the new direction).

I haven't noticed that either so far but not particularly looked for it.
I have checked yesterdays track and while there are several abrupt turns
they do not look as though they were made late. What setting are you
using for trackpoints?

'as many as possible' (on auto)

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Outgoing Msgs are Turing Tested,and indistinguishable from human typing.

Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

GSV Three Minds in a Can said:

Second question, how does it do under trees and in 'difficult'
conditions?

Probably the same as the rest of the eTrex range I'd have thought, but
not having had any experience of them.

Quoted message said:

I'm already thinking about my next upgrade (from a Venture) but unless
the 'Colour' models have fixed the dodgy lock problem I'll go with the
(huge, heavy, expensive) 60C instead.

Get some perspective Ground Support Vehicle! I chose the 60CS over the
76CS because it was so small and light!

And I chose the Vista for the same reason as Roger, (more trackpoints)
and I don't do all my walking in forests! I am pleased that Roger is
now getting quality time from his GPS, because I recommended it, and I
have never found losing lock to be a significant problem. I do make
sure that the Vista is in correct alignment, but it also works in my car
on the dashboard at an angle of 45°, and through a heated windscreen.

Are you sure you haven't got your Venture upside down, Grey Squirrel
Ventilator?
;-)
--
Gordon

Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Nick Hopton said:

[1] Footpaths on OS-maps are quite often shown up to 50 metres in
error in places, so I don't normally start to worry until the Geko
tells me that I'm at least this distance off-track.

People who have got their datum set wrong usually complain about
everything being 50m out...

Someone else tell him please... ;-)

You sound weary Paul. :-)
You are correct if the error is in the same general direction, but -

He *could* be talking about 1:50,000 maps and would be correct about
many of the paths. :-)

I originally bought 50,000 mapping from Tracklogs, and plotted many
previous walks for which I didn't have tracks.

I didn't like the 1:50,000 to work with, so I then got some 1:25,000,
and looked at the same tracks. In places they were well out of place,
and I also checked tracks which I had imported from Ozi, via my GPS as
transfer agent.

The same thing happened, the actual walked tracks coincided virtually
exactly with roads and paths on the 1:25,000 map, but diverged in places
on the 1:50,000 by quite an amount.

I would not use anything less than 1:25,000 for walking, and use the
50,000 for intricate car journeys to start points off the beaten track.

To get more accuracy, you have to increase precision, IMO.
--
Gordon

The message <[email hidden]>
from GSV Three Minds in a Can <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Second question, how does it do under trees and in 'difficult'
conditions?

I don't know as yet. I tend to walk in areas where there is a severe
absence of trees. I suspect that the aerial is common across the whole
range.

Quoted message said:

The antenna may be the same, but the electronics on the 'C' models are
entirely new, afaik.

I don't know sufficient to even guess.

I have just remembered that last weeks walk included 2 short lengths of
woodland walking, one deciduous, the other conifer. In neither track did
there appear dramatic exits stage left or right that I have become
accustomed to with poor reception conditions and the Summit. OTOH as the
Vista C is not laying an egg every millisecond there is much less scope
for spaghetti. Some of the route was common on both outward and return
legs and while at times the tracks are indistinguishable there are
places in the deciduous wood where the deviation must have reach 30m
which must say something about the quality of the reception.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm already thinking about my next upgrade (from a Venture) but unless
the 'Colour' models have fixed the dodgy lock problem I'll go with the
(huge, heavy, expensive) 60C instead.

I do wonder whether I have made the right choice but that is all water
under the bridge now. I think the next upgrade won't be until age 65
brings in a few extra pennies.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When the Venture sees two leaves and loses lock, it can take an =age= to
regain it, especially if you keep moving. It also has a very noticeable
'inertia' (or 'momentum'😉 effect if you make a (sharp) 90 degree turn ..
it'll turn it into some huge radius arc before finally admitting you are
headed in the new direction).

I haven't noticed that either so far but not particularly looked for it.
I have checked yesterdays track and while there are several abrupt turns
they do not look as though they were made late. What setting are you
using for trackpoints?

Quoted message said:

'as many as possible' (on auto)

I haven't got as far as working out what auto does but ISTR someone
saying you could get more detailed than auto. The manual seems silent on
the subject.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 89 summits
New - 61 (Marilyns 14, Sweats 5, Outlying Fells 49)
Repeats - 28 (Marilyns 11, Sweats 21, Wainwrights 16, Outlying Fells 1)

In a recent message <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders
<[email hidden]> wrote.

Quoted message said:

Nick Hopton said:

[1] Footpaths on OS-maps are quite often shown up to 50 metres in
error in places, so I don't normally start to worry until the Geko
tells me that I'm at least this distance off-track.

People who have got their datum set wrong usually complain about
everything being 50m out...

Someone else tell him please... ;-)

[...]

A kind thought Paul, but I don't need telling. On roads the OS map
errors are usually quite small, it's on footpaths that the 50-metre
errors sometimes occur. It's the OS's cartography to blame for this I'm
afraid, not my Geko. What's more, the 1:25,000 maps are no better than
the 1:50,000 ones in this respect.

Regards,
Nick.

--
Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton
Caversham, Reading, England
<[email hidden]>

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:08:00 +0000, Nick Hopton <[email hidden]>
wrote:

| In a recent message <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders
| <[email hidden]> wrote.
|
| >Nick Hopton wrote:
| >
| >> [1] Footpaths on OS-maps are quite often shown up to 50 metres in
| >> error in places, so I don't normally start to worry until the Geko
| >> tells me that I'm at least this distance off-track.
| >
| >People who have got their datum set wrong usually complain about
| >everything being 50m out...
| >
| >Someone else tell him please... ;-)
| [...]
|
| A kind thought Paul, but I don't need telling. On roads the OS map
| errors are usually quite small, it's on footpaths that the 50-metre
| errors sometimes occur. It's the OS's cartography to blame for this I'm
| afraid, not my Geko. What's more, the 1:25,000 maps are no better than
| the 1:50,000 ones in this respect.

Remember that footpaths often move quite a distance, so the OS cartography
was probably correct when the map was drawn, but those d*mn walkers don't
walk where the map shows the path.

I have several time moved a path, to a better line by a little gardening
and walking the new line. It takes only one person per day to keep a
footpath well trodden

--
Dave F

In a recent message <[email hidden]>, Dave
Fawthrop <[email hidden]> wrote.

[...]

Quoted message said:

Remember that footpaths often move quite a distance, so the OS cartography
was probably correct when the map was drawn, but those d*mn walkers don't
walk where the map shows the path.

[...]

Yes, I'm sure you're correct when you say that footpaths can shift in
the way you suggest. But my personal opinion based is that the problem
in most cases arises probably from trying to fit new surveying with old
surveying. What happens when the new data won't fit in with the old
data? Of course, it ends up being fitted in the best way possible, but
this must lead to errors, I think.

Regards,
Nick.
--
Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton
Caversham, Reading, England
<[email hidden]>

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:55:40 +0000, Nick Hopton <[email hidden]>
wrote:

| In a recent message <[email hidden]>, Dave
| Fawthrop <[email hidden]> wrote.
|
| [...]
| >Remember that footpaths often move quite a distance, so the OS cartography
| >was probably correct when the map was drawn, but those d*mn walkers don't
| >walk where the map shows the path.
| [...]
|
| Yes, I'm sure you're correct when you say that footpaths can shift in
| the way you suggest. But my personal opinion based is that the problem
| in most cases arises probably from trying to fit new surveying with old
| surveying. What happens when the new data won't fit in with the old
| data? Of course, it ends up being fitted in the best way possible, but
| this must lead to errors, I think.

If something changes AFAIK the OS just resurveys it and includes it the
next publication of the map. I once, long ago, saw an OS surveyor doing
this by hand, but now it is done from airial photos, so a small change in a
footpath could be missed.

--
Dave F

GSV Three Minds in a Can <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

What setting are you

Quoted message said:

using for trackpoints?

'as many as possible' (on auto)

<AOL>
Me too!
--
Gordon

Nick Hopton <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

In a recent message <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders
<[email hidden]> wrote.

Quoted message said:

Nick Hopton said:

[1] Footpaths on OS-maps are quite often shown up to 50 metres in
error in places, so I don't normally start to worry until the Geko
tells me that I'm at least this distance off-track.

People who have got their datum set wrong usually complain about
everything being 50m out...

Someone else tell him please... ;-)

[...]

A kind thought Paul, but I don't need telling. On roads the OS map
errors are usually quite small, it's on footpaths that the 50-metre
errors sometimes occur. It's the OS's cartography to blame for this I'm
afraid, not my Geko. What's more, the 1:25,000 maps are no better than
the 1:50,000 ones in this respect.

Oh yes they are!
In my experience, and I've compared numerous walks, the 1:25,000 paths
coincide quite well with my GPS tracks of actual walks. The same cannot
be said of 1:50,000 paths or even some narrow lanes.
--
Gordon

The message <[email hidden]>
from Nick Hopton <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

It's the OS's cartography to blame for this I'm
afraid, not my Geko. What's more, the 1:25,000 maps are no better than
the 1:50,000 ones in this respect.

If it is the green markings of a right of way you shouldn't (for once)
automatically blame the OS. Carelessness by the persons who first
registered the PROW are much more likely candidates.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 89 summits
New - 61 (Marilyns 14, Sweats 5, Outlying Fells 49)
Repeats - 28 (Marilyns 11, Sweats 21, Wainwrights 16, Outlying Fells 1)

The message <[email hidden]>
from Dave Fawthrop <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

If something changes AFAIK the OS just resurveys it and includes it the
next publication of the map. I once, long ago, saw an OS surveyor doing
this by hand, but now it is done from airial photos, so a small change in a
footpath could be missed.

The OS can rightly be blamed for being very careless when it comes to
updating the detail. Within a few hundred yards of my house can be found
several examples of items that have sometimes only been updated on some
map scales and sometimes not at all. And I am not talking about what
happened last week but about features that have changed decades ago and
certainly before other equally obscure changes that have been at least
partially recognised.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 89 summits
New - 61 (Marilyns 14, Sweats 5, Outlying Fells 49)
Repeats - 28 (Marilyns 11, Sweats 21, Wainwrights 16, Outlying Fells 1)

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful
person Gordon <[email hidden]> said

Quoted message said:

Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

GSV Three Minds in a Can said:

Second question, how does it do under trees and in 'difficult'
conditions?

Probably the same as the rest of the eTrex range I'd have thought, but
not having had any experience of them.

Quoted message said:

I'm already thinking about my next upgrade (from a Venture) but unless
the 'Colour' models have fixed the dodgy lock problem I'll go with the
(huge, heavy, expensive) 60C instead.

Get some perspective Ground Support Vehicle! I chose the 60CS over the
76CS because it was so small and light!

And I chose the Vista for the same reason as Roger, (more trackpoints)
and I don't do all my walking in forests! I am pleased that Roger is
now getting quality time from his GPS, because I recommended it, and I
have never found losing lock to be a significant problem. I do make
sure that the Vista is in correct alignment, but it also works in my car
on the dashboard at an angle of 45°, and through a heated windscreen.

Oh mine works in the car, through the heated windscreen, even upside
down. Where it doesn't work is walking through woodland with wet trees
in, and, as I mentioned, when it loses lock it can faff about for ages
before it regains it (especially if you keep walking).

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Outgoing Msgs are Turing Tested,and indistinguishable from human typing.