Which powermeter for climber ?

[SolarEnergy]

Mainly considering Quality/price ratio. Which powermeter would you recommend for a climber?

I love powertap, but is this the best choice, to add a 1 pound gear to a bike, knowing that the rider will participate to events such as Mnt Whiteface, Mnt Whashington etc... ?

Thanks a lot

 

[BlueJersey]

I don't think there is one. I can offset the powertap weight by using a much lighter fork, stem, and handle bar.

Mainly considering Quality/price ratio. Which powermeter would you recommend for a climber?

I love powertap, but is this the best choice, to add a 1 pound gear to a bike, knowing that the rider will participate to events such as Mnt Whiteface, Mnt Whashington etc... ?

Thanks a lot

 

[palewin]

Mainly considering Quality/price ratio. Which powermeter would you recommend for a climber?

You kind of ask an unanswerable question. The minimum weight option would be the SRM, but its about twice the cost of the Power Tap SL, so you either carry more weight or abandon the price constraint. In terms of quality the PT and SRM are very similar. The possible solution is the Ergamo, but its pretty new and I haven't seen many posts on user's experience with the unit. The best comparison between all the units is in Coggan & Allen's "Training and Racing with a Power Meter".

 

[SolarEnergy]

I don't think there is one. I can offset the powertap weight by using a much lighter fork, stem, and handle bar.

I like the idea. Thanks.

Do you think I can find a pound to cut on a Kuota Kredo equiped with campy records ?

You kind of ask an unanswerable question.

Yeah I know

Polar, not very accurate but probably quite light.
Ergomo, too new?
SRM, too expensive !
Powertap ??

Is there any climber on this site using a powertap hub during races ?

 

[BlueJersey]

Depending how much your bike weights to begin with. Mine, with the powertap, used to weight 20 lb. I ditched the OEM Orbea fork which weights in about 540g to the Easton EC90, 300g with the steer cut. Dropped my ITM 260g handle bar to a Ritchey WCS one, 210g. Save another 200g switching from my DA 32spoke front wheel to a Hed Stinger 60 carbon tubular (race wheel). Seriously, the powertap SL wheel isn't all that heavy. Maybe 200g heavier than your conventional rear wheel. I really don't think you will lose a hilly race or getting dropped in one just because you are riding a heavier wheel rear wheel. I always race with my powertap wheel using the top of the line clincher tire, conti 4000.

I like the idea. Thanks.

Do you think I can find a pound to cut on a Kuota Kredo equiped with campy records ?

Yeah I know

Polar, not very accurate but probably quite light.
Ergomo, too new?
SRM, too expensive !
Powertap ??

Is there any climber on this site using a powertap hub during races ?

 

[peterwright]

Mainly considering Quality/price ratio. Which powermeter would you recommend for a climber?

I love powertap, but is this the best choice, to add a 1 pound gear to a bike, knowing that the rider will participate to events such as Mnt Whiteface, Mnt Whashington etc... ?

Thanks a lot

I have fitted an PT SL hub into a Reynolds Cirro KOM rim and the total wight is very low - very little weight penalty from the original wheel.

I use it for most of my racing.

 

[BlueJersey]

I just came back from the Housatonic race. Cat4 race. My team mate won!!! Won by 20sec. Some riders just have certain natural ability. Most of us have to train like dogs. The wheel didn't hold me back though. I finished maybe 10 to 12 minutes behind him. I was able to make the selection on the first time going up the KOM climb. I lost the pack on the second time up. The effort was just too much. I needed to put out 300w to keep up (5.15w/kg). Gee, how many times I can put out 300w for 5 minutes.

Mainly considering Quality/price ratio. Which powermeter would you recommend for a climber?

I love powertap, but is this the best choice, to add a 1 pound gear to a bike, knowing that the rider will participate to events such as Mnt Whiteface, Mnt Whashington etc... ?

Thanks a lot

 

[SolarEnergy]

I just came back from the Housatonic race. Cat4 race. My team mate won!!! Won by 20sec. Some riders just have certain natural ability. Most of us have to train like dogs. The wheel didn't hold me back though. I finished maybe 10 to 12 minutes behind him. I was able to make the selection on the first time going up the KOM climb.

Good job !

I had a look at the course profile

Image speaks for itself

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Thanks a lot for the good points guys, I'll probably recommend pt sl for that climber, but I'll also recommend that he spends few hundred bucks for some part replacement in order to offset the extra weight added by the hub.

Thanks

 

[Tom Anhalt]

I like the idea. Thanks.

Do you think I can find a pound to cut on a Kuota Kredo equiped with campy records ?

Yeah I know

Polar, not very accurate but probably quite light.

Not very accurate? Based on what? I've found that the Polar is at it's most reliable during the relatively steady-state efforts of climbing. Plus, it's easy to check the "accuracy" against physics just by plugging in your weight and speed into analyticcyling.com

Short of the new (vaporware?) Ibike PM, it will give you the lightest weight option. it adds ~1/2 lb...but don't forget to subtract off the weight of any other cyclocomputers already on there that you can remove. In other words, it may end up adding less than 200 grams to the bike. That's a lot easier to try to compensate for with parts substitutions than a full pound.

Another nice thing about the Polar for people who do a lot of climbing is the fact that it has a built in altimeter. It's great for reviewing files and even figuring out %grade of various climbs, etc.

Don't just dismiss one of the options based on rumor and anecdote...

Just my 2 pesos.

 

[BlueJersey]

Is official. 12 minutes and 55sec behind the winner. Wow, more than half of the field (total of 112 starters) got dropped on the first time going up the KOM climb. By the finishing climb, maybe 30+ made it. Still a large group BTW.

Good job !

I had a look at the course profile

Image speaks for itself

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Thanks a lot for the good points guys, I'll probably recommend pt sl for that climber, but I'll also recommend that he spends few hundred bucks for some part replacement in order to offset the extra weight added by the hub.

Thanks

 

[Krazyderek]

I race with bontrager x-lite aero's with a standard powertap hub, wheels are 1800something grams, what they lack in light weight they more then makeup in stiffness. If you're really worried about weight than price isn't an issue and the decision is pretty easy. BECAUSE, for a lightweight set of powertap wheels (we'll say <1500g) you're looking at zipp, a really nicely custom built wheel, or some other type of carbon tubular. Translation, $bling$, $bling$, $bling$, probably close to the cost of an SRM, but maybe still slightly cheaper, and you get that great set of climbing wheels. So it's cheaper.

Unless you already have a really good set of lightweight climbing wheels, in which case i'd probably go with SRM. You could sell your existing light weight wheels but i doubt you'll get full price you paid for them on ebay.... trying to pay for the powertap wheels, so might aswell keep the wheels you like and get the SRM. Although i think the powertap is slightly more accurate, the SRM has the advantage of being more versitile and allowing you to slap on trainning wheels, or backup wheels during a race and not losing your power info.

SRM simply doesn't appeal to me because i ride 2 bikes interchangably for racing and trainning and i like to be able to slap my wheel into either bike and have power info. This way i have the option of what bike to ride for what events and days etc. I've had my eye on some carbon tubular wheels that would knock at least 300g off my powertap wheels but i'm waitting for next season. I'm not exactly looking forward to diving into tubular glue/tape though, especially on a carbon rim, but i guess that's why they're called race wheels

 

[jws]

Whether or not you use a pm, you could save weight as some others suggested. If you want to use a pm, you just have to accept the weight penalty.

The good news is that a PT SL is about 200g heavier than a typical light hub. If you and bike weigh 80kg, that extra 200g will cost you 9 seconds on an hour-long climb!! If you use it correctly for pacing, it'll save you minutes possibly.

 

[HammerHead]

I race on a PT SL /AC 350 sprint wheel with Sapim CXRay spokes. Rear wheel is 940 grams. I think that's about as light as you're going to get with a clincher. Add a light tube and race tire, and I wouldn't think the wheel will hold you back or negatively impact your racing.

 

[SolarEnergy]

Many very good points have been made.

I went on analyticcycling.com to perform few calculations (which I should have done at the first place I admit ), and it's true, 200gr won't make a big difference. A little less than 1 watt for the events on the rider's calendar (BTW, I already own a powertap sl, I am helping an other rider to make his choice).

I just wanted to make sure that this rider would not suffer, or be penalized by one of my recommandation, and I think he wont.

I will mention SRM and Ergomo as well, but will also mention about the benefit of being able to share one powertap wheel with more than one bike. That is significant.

Thanks a lot !

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Not very accurate? Based on what? I've found that the Polar is at it's most reliable during the relatively steady-state efforts of climbing.

I have no intent to argue with you about that. I tend to believe you in that it might work very well for you. Plus, it is supported as a datasource for CyclingPeaks, which is kind of mandatory for me.

Don't just dismiss one of the options based on rumor and anecdote...

Yeah I know this is very bad. But what other choice do I have? If it was for me, that would be a different story. But that is for someone else. I have to go with the product's reputation.

Plus I have to admit that this darn attitude that Polar has, where you have to buy a strap when the battery is dead, and that you have to send you wach for battery replacement, that is completely stupid in my opinon. And if this causes them to loose some sales, then BE IT.

Plus, it's easy to check the "accuracy" against physics just by plugging in your weight and speed into analyticcyling.com

This is very true.

Another nice thing about the Polar for people who do a lot of climbing is the fact that it has a built in altimeter. It's great for reviewing files and even figuring out %grade of various climbs, etc.

I didn't know that. Thanks !!

 

[Tom Anhalt]

Plus I have to admit that this darn attitude that Polar has, where you have to buy a strap when the battery is dead, and that you have to send you wach for battery replacement, that is completely stupid in my opinon. And if this causes them to loose some sales, then BE IT.

Hmmm...I thought the latest versions of PT were using the Polar coded HRM chip. That sort of makes that point moot, huh? Besides, if you've got your power data, who cares about the HR

There are folks on the topica wattage list that claim to perform "rituals" excising the HR strap from PM users...something about "obsidian blades"...

I'll admit that I wear my strap almost every ride, but the HR data is WAY down on the list of things I look at in a file...even behind looking at the altitude data.

Oh yeah...you don't NEED to send the watch in for battery replacement. I've done it myself and it isn't "rocket surgery". It's no harder than replacing a battery in a typical quartz watch. About the only time I'd recommend sending it in for battery replacement is if the owner uses it for swimming and you want to ensure it's leak-tight...and that's just because Polar does a leak check after the replacement. IMHO it's pretty easy to make sure the gasket seals up the case anyway....

Again, just my 2 pesos...

 

[Krazyderek]

300 weight isn't a huge issue provided you're on a good setup, but 300 or 400g, though it only corresponds to 1watt in steady pace, in reality is almost another lb you have to drag up a hill, or tow along with you in a sprint or acceleration.

I have to agree with the HR strap thing, i wear it for trainning, and i look at it sometimes to see where i'm wasting energy ie: if my heart rate sky rockets when climbing out of the saddle then i make sure i remember that instance and try to work around that by not staying out of the saddle to long. but for racing i don't wear it. Just one less thing for me to worry about, don't have to worry a bout it slipping down, feeling uncomfortable, and when i ride without it now, i feel like i'm unleashing myself, and i can breath just that much deeper without a strap around my chest, probably 99.99% mental but so is racing sometimes.

 

[SolarEnergy]

Hmmm...I thought the latest versions of PT were using the Polar coded HRM chip. That sort of makes that point moot, huh?

Well, at least the strap provided by Cycleops or Saris (whatever) allows for battery replacement.

I had a non-polar hr monitor once... not my best purchase to say the least. So I'm with you. I recognize that Polar is #1 in HR monitor.

Besides, if you've got your power data, who cares about the HR

I do. But I think that's because I am too old (or too stuburn ) to completely ignore HR response to training and racing.

I'll admit that I wear my strap almost every ride, but the HR data is WAY down on the list of things I look at in a file...even behind looking at the altitude data.

Euh well, I don't look at hr data anymore while riding. I have made this progress so far. I got power on the first row, speed on the second row, and cadence on the third row all the time.

But I haven't had hr data available in cyclingpeaks for post ride analysis for few weeks now, because my HR receiver in the yellow on bike unit doen't work anymore. I got to say that I miss this nice red line on my graph big time

Oh yeah...you don't NEED to send the watch in for battery replacement. I've done it myself and it isn't "rocket surgery". It's no harder than replacing a battery in a typical quartz watch.

I didn't sent mine neither. I got a jeweler to do it instead. But I have heard some horror stories about people doing just that, and reporting that the sweat got into the watch at one point. And so I wouldn't do it with a 500$ watch, but that's just me of course. [I can't replace a battery in a regular watch neither ]

Anyway thanks for the positive feedback about polar powermeters. If all happy polar 'campers' would take time to express their satisfaction, maybe they would offset those who provide negative testimonials.

Thanks

 

[SolarEnergy]

300 weight isn't a huge issue provided you're on a good setup, but 300 or 400g, though it only corresponds to 1watt in steady pace, in reality is almost another lb you have to drag up a hill, or tow along with you in a sprint or acceleration.

I ended up with the '1 watt' difference using 200g as a reference (which whould be the difference between a pt hub, and a 'dumb' hub).

I had exactly the same feeling as you though if the extra weight come close to a pound. IOW, a 'pound' had that scary psychological effect on me (and I think it still does), that is why I started the post.

but for racing i don't wear it.

that makes sense. Especially since there are some riders that are afraid by their own hr response. It can slow them down especially when they are tapered or well prepared for an even (it these cases, hr could go much higher than during normal day-to-day-overreached training).

 

[SolarEnergy]

Not very accurate? Based on what? I've found that the Polar is at it's most reliable during the relatively steady-state efforts of climbing. Plus, it's easy to check the "accuracy" against physics just by plugging in your weight and speed into analyticcyling.com

I have no intention of being negative or to argue just for the fun of 'winning' an argument. But for the sake of those who are in the process of buying a powermeter, this post here http://www.cyclingforums.com/showpost.php?p=2868500&postcount=30
inspired me to do a pubmed research over polar s710. And so this one here was the result. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=12740731&query_hl=6&itool=pubmed_docsum

Note that their system might have improve since this study was conducted, but it may partially explain why Polar has a reputation of being not that accurate...

 

[Tom Anhalt]

I have no intention of being negative or to argue just for the fun of 'winning' an argument. But for the sake of those who are in the process of buying a powermeter, this post here http://www.cyclingforums.com/showpost.php?p=2868500&postcount=30
inspired me to do a pubmed research over polar s710. And so this one here was the result. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=12740731&query_hl=6&itool=pubmed_docsum

Note that their system might have improve since this study was conducted, but it may partially explain why Polar has a reputation of being not that accurate...

Actually...I'm glad you pointed that out since, if anything, it highlights the dangers of making conclusions based on abstracts. I'm assuming you haven't read the entire paper, correct? If not, I can send you a copy.

Anyway...here's my "critique" of the study and it's methods. First, the measurements were taken in 2 parts. One part was a lab test where the bikes were attached to a wind trainer and the riders did three 5-minute runs at 150W with the cadence for each bout set at 60, 90, and 110 rpm. Obviously, this testing was done prior to the reports and discovery of the Polar's "flakey" performance on a stationary trainer. Additionally, the investigators found that the Polar read higher than the SRM with increasing cadence at this relatively low power on the trainer. This is now known to be a symptom of "relatively low power" and high cadence with the Polar. In those conditions, the vibration signal gets weaker as the chain tension decreases, which then makes it more likely that the signal coming from the chain pins passing the sensor can get coupled into the frequency calculation. This will result in higher power readings.

Basically, the "lab test" just went to show that the Polar doesn't do well on stationary trainers. Well...we all know that now. Even so, the investigators DID say this about the Polar's lab results: "...compared to laboratory ergometers, a bicycle with an S710 may be more suitable for power output measurement during cycling, especially for constant pedalling cadence protocols. The S710s accuracy at low cadence seems better than other ergometers that have been studied."

The other part was an uphill "field test". In short, for this the Polar read higher than the SRM by a consistant percentage. That tells me one of 2 things, either the "slope" setting of the SRM was off, or one of the values (chain weight, chain length, or chainstay length) entered into the Polar was incorrect. No info was given in the study about how they mounted the Polar and what values were put into the head. It's very possible that they didn't abide by the later recommendation that the chain be no further from the sensor that 30 mm. Additionally, although the authors state that "Prior to each trial, the SRM crankset was calibrated according to the manufacturer's recommended procedures", I've got a feeling they're just talking about resetting the zero offset. I highly doubt they hung weights and did a multipoint slope check. It's well known that very few SRMs come from the factory with the correct slope setting. I know of many people (coaches) that do a full calibration on any SRM they buy new.

So...what are we left with? First...the Polar doesn't do so well on trainers. OK, we know that. Even so, it actually performs better than lab ergometers in low cadence conditions. How about that?

Then, in the field, the Polar is shown to be highly reliable in it's power measuring. In the test, there was basically a fixed % difference to an SRM of which we don't know if the slope was set properly. Sounds to me like a simple calibration of the SRM, or checking of the Polar's input values may take care of that difference.

Here are 2 quotes directly out of the paper:

"In addition, the S710 appears to have a better accuracy than Powertap, reported to read 8% higher than SRM."

"The present results show that the S710 is a highly reliable powermeter. The repeatability of S710 appears better than some other devices (e.g. Kingcycle, Politechnika, Monark) available for recording power output, but similar to the SRM."

Anyway...that's the way I see it. Even though a reading of the abstract tends to shed a bad light on the Polar's performance, a careful reading of the entire paper and a reasoned look at the methods and results actually show evidence that the Polar can be a pretty good performer (IMHO, that is).

I just wanted to put that out there as well for those in the process of buying a powermeter. Actually, IMHO the BEST and most reasoned comparison of all the powermeter options is in a chapter of Hunter Allen and Andy Coggan's book "Racing and Training with a Powermeter". If you're planning on diving into buying a powermeter, I HIGHLY recommend getting that book just for that chapter alone.