Which rims for my first good wheelset?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Paul Hobson, Dec 26, 2005.

  1. Paul Hobson

    Paul Hobson Guest

    So, it looks like I'm about to be able to piece together the wheels for
    my next fixie project. I'm looking at rims right now and finding that I
    just don't have the experience to judge rims.

    Right now I'm looking and Velocity rims, specifically the Aerohead and
    Deep V. While the Deep V's are tempting, I'm light (~130 lbs) and not
    terrible aggressive in Atlanta's rough streets, so I don't think the
    added durability of the Deep V's cross-section will be worth the money.
    Am I wrong?

    What about other brands? Mavic? The Open Pro's seem to be well
    regarded. What about Alex? Ritchey?

    Lastly, should I order the parts and take it to the LBS to have them
    build it, or go entirely through them? Going with 32 hole Surly hubs
    and a rim comparable to the Velocity Aerohead, how much should I expect
    to pay?

    I hope everyone had/is having safe and joyous holidays,
    \\paul

    p.s. - I'd like to support my great LBS...but either wheelset at
    http://irocycle.com/id72.html looks pretty good right now.
     
    Tags:


  2. Ravi

    Ravi Guest

    Paul Hobson wrote:

    > So, it looks like I'm about to be able to piece together the wheels for
    > my next fixie project. I'm looking at rims right now and finding that I
    > just don't have the experience to judge rims.


    i am certainly no expert in judging rims, but i went with the reviews on
    road bike reviews and ofcourse lower cost ;). i went with Mavic MA3
    Silver. Later, learnt that these were anonidised and hence not a good
    choice. There are thoughts for and against that anonidisation reduces
    the strenght of the rim, so, if you want to play it safe, stay away from
    anonidised rims.

    >
    > Right now I'm looking and Velocity rims, specifically the Aerohead and
    > Deep V. While the Deep V's are tempting, I'm light (~130 lbs) and not
    > terrible aggressive in Atlanta's rough streets, so I don't think the
    > added durability of the Deep V's cross-section will be worth the money.
    > Am I wrong?


    since you are light, i guess most rims should be able to handle the
    stress. i haven't tried to bunny hop over potholes on fixie. i do not
    want to try it either. so my rims take more beating than geared bike
    rims. but i do try to get off the saddle to reduce the stress on the
    rear wheel, but when descending, it is just not possible to standup and
    spin - so i just plow thru it. My MA3 rims have withstood ~1800 miles of
    abuse - without ever going out of true.

    > What about other brands? Mavic? The Open Pro's seem to be well
    > regarded. What about Alex? Ritchey?


    i would suggest you do not go with the brand - instead consider specific
    models, because each brand have good ones and not so good ones.

    > Lastly, should I order the parts and take it to the LBS to have them
    > build it, or go entirely through them? Going with 32 hole Surly hubs
    > and a rim comparable to the Velocity Aerohead, how much should I expect
    > to pay?


    i personally think building wheels for a fixie is considerably easier
    than for geared bike - needs very small amt. of dishing on the rear
    wheel - hence the spoke tensions are almost uniform. Good that you are
    going with a 32 hole rim, which is good - more the better. I used the
    sheldonbrown's guide to wheelbuilding, it is an excellent guide ! Thanks
    Sheldon ! It has special tips for fixed gear wheels as well - lacing is
    slightly different for rearwheels.

    my 2 cents,
    +ravi

    PS: i have built only *one* wheelset - so do understand that this is a
    rookie talking - hence standard disclaimers apply.

    > I hope everyone had/is having safe and joyous holidays,
    > \\paul
    >
    > p.s. - I'd like to support my great LBS...but either wheelset at
    > http://irocycle.com/id72.html looks pretty good right now.
     
  3. "Ravi" wrote:
    > i am certainly no expert in judging rims, but i went with the reviews on
    > road bike reviews and ofcourse lower cost ;). i went with Mavic MA3
    > Silver. Later, learnt that these were anonidised and hence not a good
    > choice.


    Probably true of the "hard anodized" rims (usually black or dark grey
    color). Not really a problem for cosmetic anodizing in light colors, and
    least of all silver. There have been many reports of "clicking" noises from
    Open Pro eyelets, but that may have been corrected.

    > There are thoughts for and against that anonidisation reduces the strenght
    > of the rim, so, if you want to play it safe, stay away from anonidised
    > rims.


    Doesn't really reduce the strength of the rim. But cracks in the (hard)
    anodizing can propagate into the aluminum and cause the rim to crack,
    usually around the spoke eyelets. So in a sense it does weaken the rim over
    time.

    Art Harris
     
  4. Sandy

    Sandy Guest

    Dans le message de news:[email protected],
    Arthur Harris <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
    > "Ravi" wrote:
    >> i am certainly no expert in judging rims, but i went with the
    >> reviews on road bike reviews and ofcourse lower cost ;). i went with
    >> Mavic MA3 Silver. Later, learnt that these were anonidised and hence
    >> not a good choice.

    >
    > Probably true of the "hard anodized" rims (usually black or dark grey
    > color). Not really a problem for cosmetic anodizing in light colors,
    > and least of all silver. There have been many reports of "clicking"
    > noises from Open Pro eyelets, but that may have been corrected.


    I have read this here, often, and I am curious. What is it about these
    eyelets that gives rise to these clicks ? I find it hard enough to locate
    the source of many squeaks, clicks, rattles, on bikes, while riding. Can
    these clicks be duplicated by manipulation while the bike is at rest ?
    What's the cause ? What's the cure ?
    --
    Sandy
    Verneuil-sur-Seine
    *******

    La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
    il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
    -- Einstein, A.
     
  5. Sandy Leurre writes:

    >>> i am certainly no expert in judging rims, but i went with the
    >>> reviews on road bike reviews and of course lower cost ;). i went
    >>> with Mavic MA3 Silver. Later, learnt that these were anonidised
    >>> and hence not a good choice.


    >> Probably true of the "hard anodized" rims (usually black or dark
    >> grey color). Not really a problem for cosmetic anodizing in light
    >> colors, and least of all silver. There have been many reports of
    >> "clicking" noises from Open Pro eyelets, but that may have been
    >> corrected.


    > I have read this here, often, and I am curious. What is it about
    > these eyelets that gives rise to these clicks? I find it hard
    > enough to locate the source of many squeaks, clicks, rattles, on
    > bikes, while riding. Can these clicks be duplicated by manipulation
    > while the bike is at rest? What's the cause? What's the cure?


    The cause is rust between brass spoke nipples and eyelets of cadmium
    or zinc plated steel. Just as a bit of water in wheel bearings causes
    clicking, rust in the interface between spoke nipple and eyelet emits
    clicks during fretting motions. The solution is to make rims with
    stainless steel eyelets or as a remedy, a drop of oil at each
    eyelet/spoke nipple. Riding in rain will require subsequent oiling.

    Jobst Brandt
     
  6. Jay Beattie

    Jay Beattie Guest

    "Paul Hobson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > So, it looks like I'm about to be able to piece together the

    wheels for
    > my next fixie project. I'm looking at rims right now and

    finding that I
    > just don't have the experience to judge rims.
    >
    > Right now I'm looking and Velocity rims, specifically the

    Aerohead and
    > Deep V. While the Deep V's are tempting, I'm light (~130 lbs)

    and not
    > terrible aggressive in Atlanta's rough streets, so I don't

    think the
    > added durability of the Deep V's cross-section will be worth

    the money.
    > Am I wrong?
    >
    > What about other brands? Mavic? The Open Pro's seem to be well
    > regarded. What about Alex? Ritchey?
    >
    > Lastly, should I order the parts and take it to the LBS to have

    them
    > build it, or go entirely through them? Going with 32 hole

    Surly hubs
    > and a rim comparable to the Velocity Aerohead, how much should

    I expect
    > to pay?


    The MA3 was a POS regardless of anodizing. Velocity Fusion or
    Aerohead OC are great rims. Open Pro is an excellent rim,
    although I prefer the OC design, which probably is not an issue
    for you if you are using a fixie hub. I never had a problem with
    clicking Open Pros. You are going to be hard pressed to avoid
    anodizing, unless you find an old MA2 or Torelli Master. I think
    Ambrosio has a few polished rims, but I do not know who sells
    them.

    Build the wheel yourself. It is not hard, and it is even less
    hard on a fixie hub. In the alternative, I would have the shop
    do the job from top to bottom because I would not have the
    gumption to give them parts I bought somewhere else -- but that
    is just me. -- Jay Beattie.
     
  7. Werehatrack

    Werehatrack Guest

    On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 02:30:11 -0500, Paul Hobson
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >So, it looks like I'm about to be able to piece together the wheels for
    >my next fixie project. I'm looking at rims right now and finding that I
    >just don't have the experience to judge rims.
    >
    >Right now I'm looking and Velocity rims, specifically the Aerohead and
    >Deep V. While the Deep V's are tempting, I'm light (~130 lbs) and not
    >terrible aggressive in Atlanta's rough streets, so I don't think the
    >added durability of the Deep V's cross-section will be worth the money.
    > Am I wrong?


    I don't think so. On a fixie, it's my impression that the
    aerodynamics of the wheels would be pretty much irrelevant; why pay
    extra for it?

    >What about other brands? Mavic? The Open Pro's seem to be well
    >regarded.


    Avoid any Mavic that's hard-anodized. Generally, the shiny silver
    ones are OK, but their hard-anodized (sometimes called "ceramic") rims
    are notorious for cracking.

    >What about Alex? Ritchey?


    YMMV, but I've had no complaints about the ones from them that I've
    had, although my mileage on each has not been large.

    >Lastly, should I order the parts and take it to the LBS to have them
    >build it, or go entirely through them?


    How well do you know them? Some shops can get a trifle testy when
    asked to assemble parts bought elsewhere. OTOH, perhaps this is the
    time to build your first wheel set; it's not rocket science by any
    means.

    >Going with 32 hole Surly hubs
    >and a rim comparable to the Velocity Aerohead, how much should I expect
    >to pay?


    No clue, sorry.
    --
    Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
    Some gardening required to reply via email.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
     
  8. Paul Hobson wrote:
    > Lastly, should I order the parts and take it to the LBS to have them
    > build it, or go entirely through them?


    Ask a boss and/or owner. No problem, some places. Big problem in
    others. If they get PO'd for your asking, you've learned something
    valuable there, too.

    Ordering parts from an LBS can be a problem (suppliers setting dollar
    or item-number minimums) in this strange world we inhabit. For this and
    other reasons, some shops might even prefer you bring in your parts
    that you have spent the time/money to get, and let them simply charge
    labor. A shop that (still) stocks spokes in various lengths might make
    it worth your while to pay them more for "their" spokes than what price
    you might scrounge them for yourself, when correct spoke lengths are
    evident on your finished wheels, and you don't have a set or two (too
    short or long) in stock at home.

    I have a set of FG street wheels with Velocity Aerohead rims, silver.
    Nice, recommended here and at my LBS; strong enough (apparently) for
    non-light riders. --D-y
     
  9. On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 18:48:27 +0100, "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:

    {open pro eyelet cracking}
    >I have read this here, often, and I am curious. What is it about these
    >eyelets that gives rise to these clicks ? I find it hard enough to locate
    >the source of many squeaks, clicks, rattles, on bikes, while riding. Can
    >these clicks be duplicated by manipulation while the bike is at rest ?
    >What's the cause ? What's the cure ?


    Temporary cure is to put a drop of oil on those eyelets (which proves they
    are in fact the culprit) and permanent cure is to replace the rim.

    Jasper
     
  10. Joel

    Joel Guest

    Paul,

    I have been building my own wheels with Velocity Aerohead rims and
    really like them.
    Deep V's would be more suitable for triathlons or time trials.
    I think things would go smoother if you ordered everything through your
    LBS.
    Just make sure they have a good wheel builder.
    One thing I like to do before building with Aeroheads is to slightly
    chamfer the inside of each spoke hole with a reamer or large drill
    bit, this prevents a sharp edge on the hole which could put stress on
    the nipple and also makes the nipple seat better.

    Joel
     
  11. In article <[email protected]>,
    Paul Hobson <[email protected]> wrote:

    > So, it looks like I'm about to be able to piece together the wheels for
    > my next fixie project. I'm looking at rims right now and finding that I
    > just don't have the experience to judge rims.
    >
    > Right now I'm looking and Velocity rims, specifically the Aerohead and
    > Deep V. While the Deep V's are tempting, I'm light (~130 lbs) and not
    > terrible aggressive in Atlanta's rough streets, so I don't think the
    > added durability of the Deep V's cross-section will be worth the money.
    > Am I wrong?
    >
    > What about other brands? Mavic? The Open Pro's seem to be well
    > regarded. What about Alex? Ritchey?
    >
    > Lastly, should I order the parts and take it to the LBS to have them
    > build it, or go entirely through them? Going with 32 hole Surly hubs
    > and a rim comparable to the Velocity Aerohead, how much should I expect
    > to pay?
    >
    > I hope everyone had/is having safe and joyous holidays,


    High value, low price, low profile, durable, box
    construction: Sun CR-18, 36 hole. One of the truly good
    values in bicycles these days. I expect them to be
    discontinued, just like the (more expensive, but worth it)
    Torelli Master rim.

    --
    Michael Press
     
  12. Paul Hobson

    Paul Hobson Guest

    Paul Hobson wrote:
    <help me get wheels>

    Thanks for all the of the input everyone. Right before closing time, I
    went and talked to the LBS and talked about the rims, hubs, spokes, etc.
    They actually were unable to get the hubs I wanted and told me to get
    them myself and to bring them in. In the meantime, I've a pair of
    silver Velocity Aeroheads on the way with DT straight-gage spokes. I
    realize that this will end up being more expensive than getting
    everything straight from IRO, but it really is a friendly and helpful
    LBS, so 20 extra bucks is well worth it to me. I know that of there are
    any problems, I just have to hop around the corner and they can help me.

    Thanks again

    \\paul
     
  13. JeffWills

    JeffWills Guest

    Michael Press wrote:
    >
    > High value, low price, low profile, durable, box
    > construction: Sun CR-18, 36 hole. One of the truly good
    > values in bicycles these days. I expect them to be
    > discontinued, just like the (more expensive, but worth it)
    > Torelli Master rim.
    >


    I just built up a set of wheels for a fixie project using Sun M13 II
    rims:
    http://www.bikepartsusa.com/product_info.phtml?p=01-124161
    Since I'm 220 (plus) pounds, I went with 36 spokes. It's a basic, box
    section, silver rim whose only deficiency is that it's got single
    eyelets as opposed to double eyelets. Pretty cheap, too.

    Jeff
     
  14. Paul Hobson wrote:
    > So, it looks like I'm about to be able to piece together the wheels for
    > my next fixie project. I'm looking at rims right now and finding that I
    > just don't have the experience to judge rims.
    >
    > Right now I'm looking and Velocity rims, specifically the Aerohead and
    > Deep V. While the Deep V's are tempting, I'm light (~130 lbs) and not
    > terrible aggressive in Atlanta's rough streets, so I don't think the
    > added durability of the Deep V's cross-section will be worth the money.
    > Am I wrong?


    No, Aeroheads or Fusions would be a fine choice as well as Deep Vs.
    heavier, but nice rims.
    >
    > What about other brands? Mavic? The Open Pro's seem to be well
    > regarded. What about Alex? Ritchey?


    Mavic CXP-33, Open Pros would all be fine.
    >
    > Lastly, should I order the parts and take it to the LBS to have them
    > build it, or go entirely through them? Going with 32 hole Surly hubs
    > and a rim comparable to the Velocity Aerohead, how much should I expect
    > to pay?


    As bike shop owner, I would say have them do the whole enchilata...but
    we don't get sweated up if somebody wants us to build them, brings us
    the hubs and rims. BUT if ya buy complete wheels, have a wheelbuilder
    go through them doing tension, true, dish, round and stress relieve.
    >
    > I hope everyone had/is having safe and joyous holidays,
    > \\paul
    >
    > p.s. - I'd like to support my great LBS...but either wheelset at
    > http://irocycle.com/id72.html looks pretty good right now.
     
  15. Sandy wrote:
    > Dans le message de news:[email protected],
    > Arthur Harris <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
    > > "Ravi" wrote:
    > >> i am certainly no expert in judging rims, but i went with the
    > >> reviews on road bike reviews and ofcourse lower cost ;). i went with
    > >> Mavic MA3 Silver. Later, learnt that these were anonidised and hence
    > >> not a good choice.

    > >
    > > Probably true of the "hard anodized" rims (usually black or dark grey
    > > color). Not really a problem for cosmetic anodizing in light colors,
    > > and least of all silver. There have been many reports of "clicking"
    > > noises from Open Pro eyelets, but that may have been corrected.

    >
    > I have read this here, often, and I am curious. What is it about these
    > eyelets that gives rise to these clicks ? I find it hard enough to locate
    > the source of many squeaks, clicks, rattles, on bikes, while riding. Can
    > these clicks be duplicated by manipulation while the bike is at rest ?
    > What's the cause ? What's the cure ?
    > --
    > Sandy


    I use Lindseed oil on the nipple, eyelet joint. Easy to hear, just
    squeeze parallel spokes toigether and you will hear a 'creak', when
    this is the problem. Very common with OpenPros. Mavic rims seem to be
    getting worse, rather than better with time. CXP-33s are one of the few
    rims we see no problems with. Mavic seems more interested in making
    carppy wheels outta a box, than making decent rims. Velocity, on the
    other hand, make some really nice rims.
     
  16. Werehatrack wrote:
    > On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 02:30:11 -0500, Paul Hobson
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >So, it looks like I'm about to be able to piece together the wheels for
    > >my next fixie project. I'm looking at rims right now and finding that I
    > >just don't have the experience to judge rims.
    > >
    > >Right now I'm looking and Velocity rims, specifically the Aerohead and
    > >Deep V. While the Deep V's are tempting, I'm light (~130 lbs) and not
    > >terrible aggressive in Atlanta's rough streets, so I don't think the
    > >added durability of the Deep V's cross-section will be worth the money.
    > > Am I wrong?

    >
    > I don't think so. On a fixie, it's my impression that the
    > aerodynamics of the wheels would be pretty much irrelevant; why pay
    > extra for it?


    Deep V and Aeroheads are the same price, Same as Fusion as well.
    Strength is why we suggest Deep Vs, and if this gent is gonna slam the
    bike arond, Deep Vs would be a great choice.

    >
    > >What about other brands? Mavic? The Open Pro's seem to be well
    > >regarded.

    >
    > Avoid any Mavic that's hard-anodized. Generally, the shiny silver
    > ones are OK, but their hard-anodized (sometimes called "ceramic") rims
    > are notorious for cracking.
    >
    > >What about Alex? Ritchey?

    >
    > YMMV, but I've had no complaints about the ones from them that I've
    > had, although my mileage on each has not been large.
    >
    > >Lastly, should I order the parts and take it to the LBS to have them
    > >build it, or go entirely through them?

    >
    > How well do you know them? Some shops can get a trifle testy when
    > asked to assemble parts bought elsewhere. OTOH, perhaps this is the
    > time to build your first wheel set; it's not rocket science by any
    > means.
    >
    > >Going with 32 hole Surly hubs
    > >and a rim comparable to the Velocity Aerohead, how much should I expect
    > >to pay?

    >
    > No clue, sorry.
    > --
    > Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
    > Some gardening required to reply via email.
    > Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
     
  17. Matt O'Toole

    Matt O'Toole Guest

    On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 06:14:27 -0800, Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

    > I use Lindseed oil on the nipple, eyelet joint. Easy to hear, just
    > squeeze parallel spokes toigether and you will hear a 'creak', when this
    > is the problem. Very common with OpenPros. Mavic rims seem to be getting
    > worse, rather than better with time. CXP-33s are one of the few rims we
    > see no problems with. Mavic seems more interested in making carppy
    > wheels outta a box, than making decent rims. Velocity, on the other
    > hand, make some really nice rims.


    What do you think of Sun rims? The Venus seems a good alternative to the
    Velocity Deep-V, but much cheaper. Hard to find though. Of course the
    CR-18 are everywhere, in every diameter.

    Don't you think it's silly when people go ape over an ounce or two, which
    is about the difference betweeen a CXP-33 and an Open Pro? I'd
    choose the one with the more trouble-free reputation. Also, the silver
    CXP-33 look really cool, and the rounded shape is easier to wipe clean.

    Some great older rims are often available really cheap, especially if
    they're not a "hot" brand name. Trek's "Matrix" rims are a good example.
    They're really light, and IME trouble free. Newer designs may be
    theoretically better, but reliable wheels have been built with the older
    ones for decades, even the really light ones. If they were built well
    they stayed straight until the sidewalls wore out. So it doesn't matter.
    If you're building yourself, just use anything, and if you're paying
    someone else, let them use what they're most comfortable with. It's all
    in the build.

    Matt O.
     
  18. Matt O'Toole wrote:
    > On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 06:14:27 -0800, Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
    >
    > > I use Lindseed oil on the nipple, eyelet joint. Easy to hear, just
    > > squeeze parallel spokes toigether and you will hear a 'creak', when this
    > > is the problem. Very common with OpenPros. Mavic rims seem to be getting
    > > worse, rather than better with time. CXP-33s are one of the few rims we
    > > see no problems with. Mavic seems more interested in making carppy
    > > wheels outta a box, than making decent rims. Velocity, on the other
    > > hand, make some really nice rims.

    >
    > What do you think of Sun rims? The Venus seems a good alternative to the
    > Velocity Deep-V, but much cheaper. Hard to find though. Of course the
    > CR-18 are everywhere, in every diameter.



    Not a fan of Sun rims. When building they seem 'soft' and of the ones I
    have built(customer brings them in, we build) they seem to need a lot
    of time to make true and lot of time to keep that way.
    >
    > Don't you think it's silly when people go ape over an ounce or two, which
    > is about the difference betweeen a CXP-33 and an Open Pro? I'd
    > choose the one with the more trouble-free reputation. Also, the silver
    > CXP-33 look really cool, and the rounded shape is easier to wipe clean.


    Yep, wears me out, weight savings on the bike generally and wheels
    specifically. Wheels for the vast majority of us, along with the
    bicycle, is there to 'get you there', little else. Stressing then
    paying for a few hundred grams of weight savings, particulalry when the
    cyclist often has a "BW' or more on their bod(BW=bike weight, or 20
    pounds, new unit of measurment).


    >
    > Some great older rims are often available really cheap, especially if
    > they're not a "hot" brand name. Trek's "Matrix" rims are a good example.
    > They're really light, and IME trouble free. Newer designs may be
    > theoretically better, but reliable wheels have been built with the older
    > ones for decades, even the really light ones. If they were built well
    > they stayed straight until the sidewalls wore out. So it doesn't matter.
    > If you're building yourself, just use anything, and if you're paying
    > someone else, let them use what they're most comfortable with. It's all
    > in the build.


    Ain't it the truth. We have built some really good wheelsets with
    Velocity Aero rims...cheap($30), straight when new, great rims but not
    sexy, just silver with a non wleded seam, no machined sidewall...hey!!,
    like they all used to be!
    >
    > Matt O.
     
  19. StaceyJ

    StaceyJ Guest

    Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

    >
    > As bike shop owner, I would say have them do the whole enchilata...but
    > we don't get sweated up if somebody wants us to build them, brings us
    > the hubs and rims. BUT if ya buy complete wheels, have a wheelbuilder
    > go through them doing tension, true, dish, round and stress relieve.looks pretty good
    > right now.


    I'm curious about something...I've looked into the economics of bike
    shop ownership (a foolish retirement dream of mine), and it seems that
    the margins on hard goods are almost nil...likely even lower on parts
    that are special ordered. In light of that, it seems that it would
    almost be preferable if someone would come in strictly for service
    (from my understanding, where the real money is). Does this ring true
    (even a little)?

    SYJ
     
  20. Ron Ruff

    Ron Ruff Guest

    Matt O'Toole wrote:
    >
    > What do you think of Sun rims? The Venus seems a good alternative to the
    > Velocity Deep-V, but much cheaper.


    The Sun Swift Ta1 is comparable to a Deep V (both 30mm, >500g). The
    Fusion and Venus are about the same. There is a guy who sells Swifts on
    ebay for $55+ a pair, shipped.
     
Loading...
Loading...