Which saddle should I choose?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by John Latter, Dec 26, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. John Latter

    John Latter Guest

    Hi,

    I'm thinking of buying a replacement saddle and was wondering if anyone could give me any advice.

    The only supplier in the town where I live is 'Argos' and they sell only two types - which can be
    seen at this url:

    http://www.argos.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?storeId=10001&catalogId=1001&langId=-
    1&searchTerms=saddle&go.x=0&go.y=0

    The first is the "Bell Maximum Comfort Suspension Saddle" which has the following description:

    "Dual spring suspension absorbs road shock.

    3in supersoft padding for extra comfort.

    Ergonomic shape relieves pressure."

    And the second is the "Raleigh 'Selle Royale' Sprung Gel Saddle" and is described as:

    2 coil springs and gel properties ensure cycling comfort by moulding to the body contours.

    Smooth synthetic cover.

    Suitable for all adult cycles.

    Length 27.5cm."

    Has anyone got any experience of either of these saddles or any general comments to make?

    Thanks in advance,

    --

    John Latter

    Model of an Internal Evolutionary Mechanism (based on an extension to homeostasis) linking Stationary-
    Phase Mutations to the Baldwin Effect. http://members.aol.com/jorolat/TEM.html

    'Where Darwin meets Lamarck?' Discussion Egroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evomech
     
    Tags:


  2. Rick Onanian

    Rick Onanian Guest

    On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 23:08:25 +0000, John Latter <[email protected]>
    wrote:
    >Hi,
    >
    >I'm thinking of buying a replacement saddle and was wondering if anyone could give me any advice.

    You'll need to tell us what type of riding you do, how you feel about your current saddle, and
    describe your current saddle.

    >The first is the "Bell Maximum Comfort Suspension Saddle" which has And the second is the "Raleigh
    >'Selle Royale' Sprung Gel Saddle" and
    >
    >Has anyone got any experience of either of these saddles or any general comments to make?

    They both look great for short rides on a comfort bike but terrible for long rides on a road bike.
    --
    Rick Onanian
     
  3. John Latter wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I'm thinking of buying a replacement saddle and was wondering if anyone could give me any advice.
    >
    > The only supplier in the town where I live is 'Argos' and they sell only two types - which can be
    > seen at this url:
    >
    >
    http://www.argos.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?storeId=10001&catalo gId=1001&langId=-
    1&searchTerms=saddle&go.x=0&go.y=0
    >
    > The first is the "Bell Maximum Comfort Suspension Saddle" which has the following description:
    >
    > "Dual spring suspension absorbs road shock.
    >
    > 3in supersoft padding for extra comfort.
    >
    > Ergonomic shape relieves pressure."
    >
    > And the second is the "Raleigh 'Selle Royale' Sprung Gel Saddle" and is described as:
    >

    >
    > 2 coil springs and gel properties ensure cycling comfort by moulding to the body contours.
    >
    > Smooth synthetic cover.
    >
    > Suitable for all adult cycles.
    >
    > Length 27.5cm."
    >
    > Has anyone got any experience of either of these saddles or any general comments to make?
    >
    > Thanks in advance,

    Without really knowing anything about those saddles it sounds to me like they consist of too much
    springs and Gel. After looking at them I also say they are not shaped in such a way as to make a
    comfortable ride at all. If you never ride more than 2-3 miles at a leisurely pace they probably
    won't harm you and they might feel soft and comfortable. If you plan on riding any longer than that
    you should look into buying a real saddle. Check out this link and read some more about what
    constitutes a good saddle. http://www.sheldonbrown.com/saddles.html

    --
    Perre

    You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.
     
  4. John Latter

    John Latter Guest

    On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 18:16:25 -0500, Rick Onanian <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 23:08:25 +0000, John Latter <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>Hi,
    >>
    >>I'm thinking of buying a replacement saddle and was wondering if anyone could give me any advice.
    >
    >You'll need to tell us what type of riding you do, how you feel about your current saddle, and
    >describe your current saddle.
    >
    >>The first is the "Bell Maximum Comfort Suspension Saddle" which has And the second is the "Raleigh
    >>'Selle Royale' Sprung Gel Saddle" and
    >>
    >>Has anyone got any experience of either of these saddles or any general comments to make?
    >
    >They both look great for short rides on a comfort bike but terrible for long rides on a road bike.

    Over the last 8 months or so I've built up to cycling about 12 - 15 miles per day (when I can).

    This generally consists of two seperate laps of my town (one am & one pm) and a 6 to 8 mile ride
    along country lanes in the afternoon.

    I'm not aiming to increase my speed or anything, just trying to maintain (or rather, attain) a basic
    level of fitness and enjoy the view.

    The saddle I have appears to be just a basic vuelta of standard shape with no ergonic design. When I
    do the country ride I get aches between the 'sit bones' which sometimes seem to spread down on the
    inside of my legs.

    I really enjoy cycling and I thought that a new saddle would make it even better and reduce the risk
    of any problems cos of the aches.

    I appreciate your replying - thank you! :)

    --

    John Latter

    Model of an Internal Evolutionary Mechanism (based on an extension to homeostasis) linking Stationary-
    Phase Mutations to the Baldwin Effect. http://members.aol.com/jorolat/TEM.html

    'Where Darwin meets Lamarck?' Discussion Egroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evomech
     
  5. John Latter

    John Latter Guest

    On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 23:16:38 GMT, "Per Elmsäter"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >John Latter wrote:
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> I'm thinking of buying a replacement saddle and was wondering if anyone could give me any advice.
    >>
    >> The only supplier in the town where I live is 'Argos' and they sell only two types - which can be
    >> seen at this url:
    >>
    >>
    >http://www.argos.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?storeId=10001&catalo gId=1001&langId=-
    >1&searchTerms=saddle&go.x=0&go.y=0
    >>
    >> The first is the "Bell Maximum Comfort Suspension Saddle" which has the following description:
    >>
    >> "Dual spring suspension absorbs road shock.
    >>
    >> 3in supersoft padding for extra comfort.
    >>
    >> Ergonomic shape relieves pressure."
    >>
    >> And the second is the "Raleigh 'Selle Royale' Sprung Gel Saddle" and is described as:
    >>

    >>
    >> 2 coil springs and gel properties ensure cycling comfort by moulding to the body contours.
    >>
    >> Smooth synthetic cover.
    >>
    >> Suitable for all adult cycles.
    >>
    >> Length 27.5cm."
    >>
    >> Has anyone got any experience of either of these saddles or any general comments to make?
    >>
    >> Thanks in advance,
    >
    >Without really knowing anything about those saddles it sounds to me like they consist of too much
    >springs and Gel. After looking at them I also say they are not shaped in such a way as to make a
    >comfortable ride at all. If you never ride more than 2-3 miles at a leisurely pace they probably
    >won't harm you and they might feel soft and comfortable. If you plan on riding any longer than that
    >you should look into buying a real saddle. Check out this link and read some more about what
    >constitutes a good saddle. http://www.sheldonbrown.com/saddles.html

    Thank you for the link Perre - I tend to get 'aches' which spread down on the inside of my legs if I
    do more than 5 to 6 miles and I thought a new saddle would help.

    I've just skimmed thru the article & will read it properly later - I had thought that gel/thicker
    padding would provide an instant answer!

    Thanks again :)

    --

    John Latter

    Model of an Internal Evolutionary Mechanism (based on an extension to homeostasis) linking Stationary-
    Phase Mutations to the Baldwin Effect. http://members.aol.com/jorolat/TEM.html

    'Where Darwin meets Lamarck?' Discussion Egroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evomech
     
  6. John Latter wrote:
    > On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 23:16:38 GMT, "Per Elmsäter" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> John Latter wrote:
    >>> Hi,
    >>>
    >>> I'm thinking of buying a replacement saddle and was wondering if anyone could give me any
    >>> advice.
    >>>
    >>> The only supplier in the town where I live is 'Argos' and they sell only two types - which can
    >>> be seen at this url:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>
    http://www.argos.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?storeId=10001&catalo
    >> gId=1001&langId=-1&searchTerms=saddle&go.x=0&go.y=0
    >>>
    >>> The first is the "Bell Maximum Comfort Suspension Saddle" which has the following description:
    >>>
    >>> "Dual spring suspension absorbs road shock.
    >>>
    >>> 3in supersoft padding for extra comfort.
    >>>
    >>> Ergonomic shape relieves pressure."
    >>>
    >>> And the second is the "Raleigh 'Selle Royale' Sprung Gel Saddle" and is described as:
    >>>

    >>>
    >>> 2 coil springs and gel properties ensure cycling comfort by moulding to the body contours.
    >>>
    >>> Smooth synthetic cover.
    >>>
    >>> Suitable for all adult cycles.
    >>>
    >>> Length 27.5cm."
    >>>
    >>> Has anyone got any experience of either of these saddles or any general comments to make?
    >>>
    >>> Thanks in advance,
    >>
    >> Without really knowing anything about those saddles it sounds to me like they consist of too much
    >> springs and Gel. After looking at them I also say they are not shaped in such a way as to make a
    >> comfortable ride at all. If you never ride more than 2-3 miles at a leisurely pace they probably
    >> won't harm you and they might feel soft and comfortable. If you plan on riding any longer than
    >> that you should look into buying a real saddle. Check out this link and read some more about what
    >> constitutes a good saddle. http://www.sheldonbrown.com/saddles.html
    >
    > Thank you for the link Perre - I tend to get 'aches' which spread down on the inside of my legs if
    > I do more than 5 to 6 miles and I thought a new saddle would help.
    >
    > I've just skimmed thru the article & will read it properly later - I had thought that gel/thicker
    > padding would provide an instant answer!
    >
    > Thanks again :)

    When you do read through the article you will find that Gel padding usually does just the opposite.
    From what I understand of your riding you will need a *real* saddle. Which one that is only you can
    decide but you can learn from others how a saddle should be made. It usually is not soft at all.
    Often quite narrow. The important part is that your sitbones get seated right and that it doesn't
    chafe. You might want to look at getting decent biking shorts with the padding in the crotch insead
    of on the saddle. You might also need to look at how high you have set your saddle. Usually we want
    to set it too low in order to be able to put a foot down when we stop etc. It might just be that
    your aches will go away with a proper setup and a good pair of cycling shorts. You should find
    articles upon these things also on Sheldon Browns site.
    --
    Perre

    You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.
     
  7. Dan Daniel

    Dan Daniel Guest

    On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 23:36:46 +0000, John Latter <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >
    >The saddle I have appears to be just a basic vuelta of standard shape with no ergonic design. When
    >I do the country ride I get aches between the 'sit bones' which sometimes seem to spread down on
    >the inside of my legs.
    >

    Hmmmm..... when I have had problems on the inside of my legs- meaning thighs primarily for me- it
    was when using a saddle that was too wide up front. I had to spread my thighs in a weird manner to
    clear the excess width, and this made the legs ache and the whole riding experience less than ideal.
    Shapes closer to a T work much better for me than shapes like a V.

    It's in longer rides where small things like this make themselves known.

    >I really enjoy cycling and I thought that a new saddle would make it even better and reduce the
    >risk of any problems cos of the aches.
    >

    Saddle angle and position can also be important. You might try moving the present one backwards or
    forward, change the tilt, etc.
     
  8. Jeff Starr

    Jeff Starr Guest

    John Latter <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > >Check out this link and read some more about what constitutes a good saddle.
    > >http://www.sheldonbrown.com/saddles.html
    >
    > Thank you for the link Perre - I tend to get 'aches' which spread down on the inside of my legs if
    > I do more than 5 to 6 miles and I thought a new saddle would help.
    >
    > I've just skimmed thru the article & will read it properly later - I had thought that gel/thicker
    > padding would provide an instant answer!
    >
    > Thanks again :)
    >
    > --
    >
    > John Latter
    >

    Hi John, here is another link for you, take a look at "Bicycling and Pain".
    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/beginners/index.html

    What kind of bike are you riding? Do you wear padded shorts? I would think that after reading the
    article on saddles and the one on pain, you may have a better idea of what you'll need. Life is
    Good! Jeff
     
  9. John Latter

    John Latter Guest

    On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 23:08:25 +0000, John Latter <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >Hi,
    >
    >I'm thinking of buying a replacement saddle and was wondering if anyone could give me any advice.
    >
    >The only supplier in the town where I live is 'Argos' and they sell only two types - which can be
    >seen at this url:
    >
    >http://www.argos.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?storeId=10001&catalogId=1001&langId=-
    >1&searchTerms=saddle&go.x=0&go.y=0
    >
    >The first is the "Bell Maximum Comfort Suspension Saddle" which has the following description:
    >
    >"Dual spring suspension absorbs road shock.
    >
    >3in supersoft padding for extra comfort.
    >
    >Ergonomic shape relieves pressure."
    >
    >And the second is the "Raleigh 'Selle Royale' Sprung Gel Saddle" and is described as:
    >

    >
    >2 coil springs and gel properties ensure cycling comfort by moulding to the body contours.
    >
    >Smooth synthetic cover.
    >
    >Suitable for all adult cycles.
    >
    >Length 27.5cm."
    >
    >Has anyone got any experience of either of these saddles or any general comments to make?
    >
    >Thanks in advance,

    Thankyou Perre, Dan, and Jeff! There's a lot more to choosing a saddle than I first thought so I
    won't rush into it like I was going to do - I appreciate the links and info & will be
    reading/digesting 'em later!
    :)

    --

    John Latter

    Model of an Internal Evolutionary Mechanism (based on an extension to homeostasis) linking Stationary-
    Phase Mutations to the Baldwin Effect. http://members.aol.com/jorolat/TEM.html

    'Where Darwin meets Lamarck?' Discussion Egroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evomech
     
  10. Mark

    Mark Guest

    You can also read other peoples reviews on saddles at this site. Look under Controls and then you
    will see saddles.

    http://www.roadbikereview.com/reviewscrx.aspx

    --
    "A bicycle can't stand on its own because it is two-tired."
     
  11. Peter Cole

    Peter Cole Guest

    "John Latter" <[email protected]msn.com> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Hi,
    >
    > I'm thinking of buying a replacement saddle and was wondering if anyone could give me any advice.
    >
    > The only supplier in the town where I live is 'Argos' and they sell only two types - which can be
    > seen at this url:

    I think you may want to venture outside your town (or purchase mail-order). Those saddles are junk.
     
  12. John Latter

    John Latter Guest

    On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 10:26:22 -0500, Mark <[email protected]> wrote:

    >You can also read other peoples reviews on saddles at this site. Look under Controls and then you
    >will see saddles.
    >
    >http://www.roadbikereview.com/reviewscrx.aspx

    Thanks Mark! :)

    --

    John Latter

    Model of an Internal Evolutionary Mechanism (based on an extension to homeostasis) linking Stationary-
    Phase Mutations to the Baldwin Effect. http://members.aol.com/jorolat/TEM.html

    'Where Darwin meets Lamarck?' Discussion Egroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evomech
     
  13. Rick Onanian

    Rick Onanian Guest

    On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 23:36:46 +0000, John Latter <[email protected]>
    wrote:
    >with no ergonic design. When I do the country ride I get aches between the 'sit bones' which
    >sometimes seem to spread down on the inside of my legs.

    Others have given you good advice; consider it. Here's what I have to add:

    The ache between the sit bones may be from a too-soft saddle. A harder saddle with padded bike
    shorts seems to help with this.

    If it's not from the saddle being too soft, then it may be too narrow; but be careful not to buy one
    too wide, especially at the front where you legs need to clear it (as mentioned in another message).

    The ache down the inside of your legs sounds to me like a saddle height problem -- too high
    or too low.

    For long rides, it helps to set up your bike so that some of your weight is carried by your arms;
    this initially results in a little bit of pain until your hands and arms get used to it, but removes
    weight from your butt, which shouldn't reasonably have to carry all of your weight.

    That brings to mind one other possible reason for the ache down the inside of your legs: if your
    handlebar is too far forward and/or down, you may be bent too sharply and stretching your leg
    too severely.
    --
    Rick Onanian
     
  14. John Latter

    John Latter Guest

    On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 12:16:23 -0500, Rick Onanian <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 23:36:46 +0000, John Latter <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>with no ergonic design. When I do the country ride I get aches between the 'sit bones' which
    >>sometimes seem to spread down on the inside of my legs.
    >
    >Others have given you good advice; consider it. Here's what I have to add:
    >
    >The ache between the sit bones may be from a too-soft saddle. A harder saddle with padded bike
    >shorts seems to help with this.
    >
    >If it's not from the saddle being too soft, then it may be too narrow; but be careful not to buy
    >one too wide, especially at the front where you legs need to clear it (as mentioned in another
    >message).
    >
    >The ache down the inside of your legs sounds to me like a saddle height problem -- too high
    >or too low.
    >
    >For long rides, it helps to set up your bike so that some of your weight is carried by your arms;
    >this initially results in a little bit of pain until your hands and arms get used to it, but
    >removes weight from your butt, which shouldn't reasonably have to carry all of your weight.
    >
    >That brings to mind one other possible reason for the ache down the inside of your legs: if your
    >handlebar is too far forward and/or down, you may be bent too sharply and stretching your leg too
    >severely.

    Thanks Rick - I've been experimenting with my existing saddle & there has been some improvement -
    but I still want to get a 'better' one & I'm appreciative of all the advice I've been given!

    --

    John Latter

    Model of an Internal Evolutionary Mechanism (based on an extension to homeostasis) linking Stationary-
    Phase Mutations to the Baldwin Effect. http://members.aol.com/jorolat/TEM.html

    'Where Darwin meets Lamarck?' Discussion Egroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evomech
     
  15. Simon Brooke

    Simon Brooke Guest

    John Latter <[email protected]> writes:

    > Hi,
    >
    > I'm thinking of buying a replacement saddle and was wondering if anyone could give me any advice.

    Oh, another piece of advice: if you want to ask the same question in two different groups, cross
    post it. Not only does it save you half the work, but everyone gets to see the whole discussion and
    you don't need to visit two different groups to see their answers. Saves everyone time and hassle,
    and as an added benefit saves bandwidth and diskspace on the servers.

    --
    [email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; Friends don't send friends HTML formatted emails.
     
  16. Q.

    Q. Guest

  17. Q.

    Q. Guest

    "Peter Cole" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]_s52...
    > "John Latter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Hi,
    > >
    > > I'm thinking of buying a replacement saddle and was wondering if anyone could give me any
    > > advice.
    > >
    > > The only supplier in the town where I live is 'Argos' and they sell only two types - which can
    > > be seen at this url:
    >
    > I think you may want to venture outside your town (or purchase
    mail-order).
    > Those saddles are junk.

    Can anyone say Nashbar?

    C.Q.C.
     
  18. x

    x Guest

    RE/
    >I'm thinking of buying a replacement saddle and was wondering if anyone could give me any advice.

    Don't be afraid of springs or suspended seatposts. If you're 26 years old, you probably have a cast-
    iron arse and nothing bothers you. But if you're 50+ things may be different....

    Something like a Brooks B-72 with those little curlyque springs instead of coil springs
    *really* takes the edge off of riding a non-suspended bike yet keeps the saddle steady enough
    for good control.

    I had one on my road bike for years. Every so often I'd try a non-sprung saddle and it felt like my
    molars were gonna be jarred loose.

    The problem with most sprung saddles (most saddles, for that matter...) is that the surface is too
    soft. Your sit bones sink in, leaving the rest of the surface to press where nothing should press.
    You won't notice it at first, but over time it definately becomes a problem. Leather saddles like
    Brooks' don't allow your sit bones to sink in, but they're still comfortable.

    I also had some kind of el-cheapo saddle with little coil springs running fore-aft like bedsprings.
    That one worked pretty well too because, like the Brooks, the surface was not padded.

    I've tried Cane Creek's ThudBuster post. Works well for me - and it opens up the range of saddle
    selection greatly compared to being limited to sprung saddles.

    OTOH thousands of people ride solid-rail saddles on hardtail bikes...I did...but if I had to do it
    now, I'd just flat quit riding.

    Three other observations from experience:

    1) The saddle's usable width has to be wide enough to accomodate the width between your sit bones.
    Not an issue for most people, but I've got almost five inches between those things and am
    concious of the fit issue.

    2) The right angle can make a beeeeeeg difference. Start level and try a little adjustment in either
    direction. I always try to use micro-adjustable seatposts. One notch on a regular seatpost is
    quite a large amount of adjustment.

    3) Fore-aft adjustment is important and, for statistical the statistical outlier, the adjustment
    range can be inadequate. I spent months wondering why my saddle was so hard until it finally
    dawned on my that as my body found KOPS, my butt moved back to where it was just perched on the
    hard rear rail of the saddle. A setback post was the cure.
    --
    PeteCresswell
     
  19. John Latter

    John Latter Guest

    On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:54:07 GMT, "(Pete Cresswell)" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >RE/
    >>I'm thinking of buying a replacement saddle and was wondering if anyone could give me any advice.
    >
    >Don't be afraid of springs or suspended seatposts. If you're 26 years old, you probably have a cast-
    >iron arse and nothing bothers you. But if you're 50+ things may be different....
    >
    >Something like a Brooks B-72 with those little curlyque springs instead of coil springs
    >*really* takes the edge off of riding a non-suspended bike yet keeps the saddle steady enough
    >for good control.
    >
    >I had one on my road bike for years. Every so often I'd try a non-sprung saddle and it felt like my
    >molars were gonna be jarred loose.
    >
    >The problem with most sprung saddles (most saddles, for that matter...) is that the surface is too
    >soft. Your sit bones sink in, leaving the rest of the surface to press where nothing should press.
    >You won't notice it at first, but over time it definately becomes a problem. Leather saddles like
    >Brooks' don't allow your sit bones to sink in, but they're still comfortable.
    >
    >I also had some kind of el-cheapo saddle with little coil springs running fore-aft like bedsprings.
    >That one worked pretty well too because, like the Brooks, the surface was not padded.
    >
    >I've tried Cane Creek's ThudBuster post. Works well for me - and it opens up the range of saddle
    >selection greatly compared to being limited to sprung saddles.
    >
    >OTOH thousands of people ride solid-rail saddles on hardtail bikes...I did...but if I had to do it
    >now, I'd just flat quit riding.
    >
    >
    >Three other observations from experience:
    >
    >1) The saddle's usable width has to be wide enough to accomodate the width between your sit bones.
    > Not an issue for most people, but I've got almost five inches between those things and am
    > concious of the fit issue.
    >
    >2) The right angle can make a beeeeeeg difference. Start level and try a little adjustment in
    > either direction. I always try to use micro-adjustable seatposts. One notch on a regular
    > seatpost is quite a large amount of adjustment.
    >
    >3) Fore-aft adjustment is important and, for statistical the statistical outlier, the adjustment
    > range can be inadequate. I spent months wondering why my saddle was so hard until it finally
    > dawned on my that as my body found KOPS, my butt moved back to where it was just perched on the
    > hard rear rail of the saddle. A setback post was the cure.

    Thanks Pete - having abandoned buying one from Argos, I'm gonna take my time & have a look
    around first.

    --

    John Latter

    Model of an Internal Evolutionary Mechanism (based on an extension to homeostasis) linking Stationary-
    Phase Mutations to the Baldwin Effect. http://members.aol.com/jorolat/TEM.html

    'Where Darwin meets Lamarck?' Discussion Egroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evomech
     
Loading...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...