Which step-up racing wheels?

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

A 105, 36h front hub, 28h rear 105 hub, laced to Velocity Deep V, DT
oval spokes, 18 radial in the front, 28 2 cross in the rear..about
$400.

I agree that those would be a good choice if you wanted faster
wheels... nearly as aero as expensive carbon wheels. Not that it would
make much difference... a few tenths of a mph at most. If you are
racing a lot it is a good idea to have an extra set of wheels anyway,
with good quality racing tires. Michelin Pro2s (20mm) would probably be
your best bet.

Other important things to look at are aero bars, a skinsuit... and
maybe an aero helmet... nothing else will matter much.

Spend time getting properly set up, and practice using your aero
bars... that will make the biggest difference.

Peter Cole said:

Try clip-ons before you make any major investment. You don't need to do
any other modifications except perhaps moving your saddle forward.

Aerobars for sure, but I wouldn't recommend messing with the seat
position. Just use clipons with the proper reach (probably short) and
adjustable height, and get your upper body as low as you can while
still being comfortable. If you aren't too low at first, that's fine...
the aerobars will still help.

bebopdeluxe said:

Yesterday was my first road race, and I learned a LOT...obviously, when
you see some of the bikes being ridden out there, it was hard for me to
not have some gear envy.

You gotta work on that... think about all the people with more expensive
equipment that finished *behind* you.

Seriously, I think the advice you've received is pretty good. Keep your
equipment, work on your fitness and your position. If you feel the need
to invest money, hire a coach.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

Everyone confesses that exertion which brings out all the powers of body
and mind is the best thing for us; but most people do all they can to
get rid of it, and as a general rule nobody does much more than
circumstances drive them to do. -Harriet Beecher Stowe, abolitionist and
novelist (1811-1896)

"Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

A 105, 36h front hub, 28h rear 105 hub, laced to Velocity Deep V, DT
oval spokes, 18 radial in the front, 28 2 cross in the rear..about
$400.

I agree that those would be a good choice if you wanted faster
wheels... nearly as aero as expensive carbon wheels. Not that it would
make much difference... a few tenths of a mph at most. If you are
racing a lot it is a good idea to have an extra set of wheels anyway,
with good quality racing tires. Michelin Pro2s (20mm) would probably be
your best bet.

Other important things to look at are aero bars, a skinsuit... and
maybe an aero helmet... nothing else will matter much.

Spend time getting properly set up, and practice using your aero
bars... that will make the biggest difference.

All good things. For a Triathlon, you may want to check which helmets are
allowed. In the UK at least, they need to have certain safety
certifications. Not all pointy go-faster hats have passed any tests.

Skippy
E&OE

On 26 Jun 2006 13:25:09 -0700, "Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

Try clip-ons before you make any major investment. You don't need to do
any other modifications except perhaps moving your saddle forward.

Aerobars for sure, but I wouldn't recommend messing with the seat
position.

Mess with it. That's one of the points of sport -- to try things out
and learn what works best.

JT

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John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Quoted message said:

Aerobars for sure, but I wouldn't recommend messing with the seat
position.

Mess with it. That's one of the points of sport -- to try things out
and learn what works best.

If he had a dedicated TT bike there might be something to gain by
moving the seat forward and up (maybe), but since he is using this bike
for commuting and general riding around, I think he'd be better off
keeping the same saddle position.

On 26 Jun 2006 16:12:28 -0700, "Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Quoted message said:

Aerobars for sure, but I wouldn't recommend messing with the seat
position.

Mess with it. That's one of the points of sport -- to try things out
and learn what works best.

If he had a dedicated TT bike there might be something to gain by
moving the seat forward and up (maybe), but since he is using this bike
for commuting and general riding around, I think he'd be better off
keeping the same saddle position.

It's not that hard to switch it back and forth.

JT

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At the risk of making this even more confusing...it looks like the seat
tube angle of dedicated tri bikes like, say, the Felt B2/S22 or Jamis
Trilogy are at 76 degrees...versus the Quest's seat tube angle of 73
degrees...so, I guess that means that the position of the rider is more
straight-up on a tri bike and when you ues aerobars, you feel more
balanced...while using aerobars with a traditional road bike may feel
more like you are leaning forward in a bit more unbalanced way...yes?

Again - this is all incremental steps in a process...can I adjust my
existing seat to make up for this 3 degree difference? Should I even
sweat this?

Again...many thanks for everyone's input...

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On 26 Jun 2006 16:12:28 -0700, "Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

>Aerobars for sure, but I wouldn't recommend messing with the seat
>position.

Mess with it. That's one of the points of sport -- to try things out
and learn what works best.

If he had a dedicated TT bike there might be something to gain by
moving the seat forward and up (maybe), but since he is using this bike
for commuting and general riding around, I think he'd be better off
keeping the same saddle position.

It's not that hard to switch it back and forth.

JT

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Pardon the top post, but... 'what they said".

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Skippy said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

bebopdeluxe said:

Mark:

Getting back to a question I posed earlier...and I apologize in advance
if my question has "newbie" slathered all over it...

Is there something that I can do with the front crank ( i.e. what the
pedals attach to) to give myself a bit more "oomph"? I think that I
have a Truvativ triple crankset, and I wonder if getting a double
crankset with better gear spacing might give me the ability to get a
little more power in the flats (it might kill me in the hills, but it's
not like I am using the easiest setting on the triple crank anyway...)

The crankset makes no difference. I doubt you are miss shifting during
the race and ending up on the inner ring by accident. Your crank will
most likely have 52-42-30 or 53-39-30 chainrings. The outer and middle
rings are the standard for road bikes. They work fine with available
cassettes. One place you might, might, might be able to help your
gearing is to have a tighter rear cassette. If the course is
reasonably flat, then a cassette with almost a straight block would
help with gear selection. A 12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21 or
13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23 for instance. With any change in gradient
or wind direction, you will be able to pick the next easiest or harder
gear to keep riding at the same rpm and power output.

I was writing pretty much the same thing, so you saved me some bother.
Thanks. I'd add that 'learning' to pedal nice and smoothly (90RPM+) will
make the bike phase more tolerable, and keep legs fresh for the run.

Quoted message said:

Of course your current cassette will work just fine too. Going fast is
about 110% dependent on the rider.

Oh yes. Train lots and good luck for the next event.

Skippy
E&OE

bebopdeluxe said:

while using aerobars with a traditional road bike may feel
more like you are leaning forward in a bit more unbalanced way...yes?

No.

Steep seat tube angles became popular for tri bikes because it is
easier to get your upper body level... which is generally better for
aerodynamics at the expense of power. You will "feel" less balanced
with a steep seat angle (and level back), because you will be
supporting a lot of weight on your arms, fighting the urge to slide
forward, and craning your neck so that you can just peer out past your
eyebrows. If you get set up properly on your road bike with clipons,
your butt and legs will be carrying most of the weight (as they do
normally)... and you should be a lot more comfortable.

There is some discussion of using a normal road bike saddle position
here:
http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/techctr/wayback.html#Anchor-26352

Plenty of pro road racers sit in essentially the same spot on their TT
and road bikes. For starters, I think it would be a good idea for you
to do the same.

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Pardon the top post, but... 'what they said".

Sorry? I'm not sure I understand. I was agreeing with Russell.

Skippy
E&OE

Quoted message said:

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Skippy said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

bebopdeluxe wrote:
> Mark:
>
> Getting back to a question I posed earlier...and I apologize in advance
> if my question has "newbie" slathered all over it...
>
> Is there something that I can do with the front crank ( i.e. what the
> pedals attach to) to give myself a bit more "oomph"? I think that I
> have a Truvativ triple crankset, and I wonder if getting a double
> crankset with better gear spacing might give me the ability to get a
> little more power in the flats (it might kill me in the hills, but it's
> not like I am using the easiest setting on the triple crank anyway...)

The crankset makes no difference. I doubt you are miss shifting during
the race and ending up on the inner ring by accident. Your crank will
most likely have 52-42-30 or 53-39-30 chainrings. The outer and middle
rings are the standard for road bikes. They work fine with available
cassettes. One place you might, might, might be able to help your
gearing is to have a tighter rear cassette. If the course is
reasonably flat, then a cassette with almost a straight block would
help with gear selection. A 12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21 or
13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23 for instance. With any change in gradient
or wind direction, you will be able to pick the next easiest or harder
gear to keep riding at the same rpm and power output.

I was writing pretty much the same thing, so you saved me some bother.
Thanks. I'd add that 'learning' to pedal nice and smoothly (90RPM+) will
make the bike phase more tolerable, and keep legs fresh for the run.

Quoted message said:

Of course your current cassette will work just fine too. Going fast is
about 110% dependent on the rider.

Oh yes. Train lots and good luck for the next event.

Skippy
E&OE

Skippy said:

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Pardon the top post, but... 'what they said".

Quoted message said:

Sorry? I'm not sure I understand. I was agreeing with Russell.

"What they said" is just an expression meaning they got it right. (Often
it's "what he said" after someone nails something especially well.)

HTH, Bill S.

"bebopdeluxe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

At the risk of making this even more confusing...it looks like the seat
tube angle of dedicated tri bikes like, say, the Felt B2/S22 or Jamis
Trilogy are at 76 degrees...versus the Quest's seat tube angle of 73
degrees...so, I guess that means that the position of the rider is more
straight-up on a tri bike and when you ues aerobars, you feel more
balanced...while using aerobars with a traditional road bike may feel
more like you are leaning forward in a bit more unbalanced way...yes?

Again - this is all incremental steps in a process...can I adjust my
existing seat to make up for this 3 degree difference? Should I even
sweat this?

Again...many thanks for everyone's input...

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On 26 Jun 2006 16:12:28 -0700, "Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> >Aerobars for sure, but I wouldn't recommend messing with the seat
> >position.
>
> Mess with it. That's one of the points of sport -- to try things out
> and learn what works best.

If he had a dedicated TT bike there might be something to gain by
moving the seat forward and up (maybe), but since he is using this bike
for commuting and general riding around, I think he'd be better off
keeping the same saddle position.

It's not that hard to switch it back and forth.

JT

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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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I wouldn't go too far forward. It's only an advantage when you ride like
that all the time. I don't know how supple you are, but most riders have
trouble riding in the really flat/forward position. I've moved my setup
back a bit and go faster as a result. You also risk injuting your
hamstrings going for such an extreme position. You'll get an idea once
you've got some clip-ons. I like the Profile ones (T2: fairly cheap,
simple, adjustable and stay put) but I'm sure others will have different
suggestions . Keep your current bars and shifters, at least for the moment.
If you've not got a dedicated race bike, bar-end shifters are a real pain
when you're riding on the brake hoods or drops.

Skippy
E&OE

"Sorni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Skippy said:

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Pardon the top post, but... 'what they said".

Quoted message said:

Sorry? I'm not sure I understand. I was agreeing with Russell.

"What they said" is just an expression meaning they got it right. (Often
it's "what he said" after someone nails something especially well.)

HTH, Bill S.

Doh! I'll get there one day.

Skippy
E&OE

Skippy said:

"bebopdeluxe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

At the risk of making this even more confusing...it looks like the seat
tube angle of dedicated tri bikes like, say, the Felt B2/S22 or Jamis
Trilogy are at 76 degrees...versus the Quest's seat tube angle of 73
degrees...so, I guess that means that the position of the rider is more
straight-up on a tri bike and when you ues aerobars, you feel more
balanced...while using aerobars with a traditional road bike may feel
more like you are leaning forward in a bit more unbalanced way...yes?

Again - this is all incremental steps in a process...can I adjust my
existing seat to make up for this 3 degree difference? Should I even
sweat this?

Again...many thanks for everyone's input...

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On 26 Jun 2006 16:12:28 -0700, "Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

>
>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> >Aerobars for sure, but I wouldn't recommend messing with the seat
>> >position.
>>
>> Mess with it. That's one of the points of sport -- to try things out
>> and learn what works best.
>
>If he had a dedicated TT bike there might be something to gain by
>moving the seat forward and up (maybe), but since he is using this bike
>for commuting and general riding around, I think he'd be better off
>keeping the same saddle position.

It's not that hard to switch it back and forth.

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't go too far forward. It's only an advantage when you ride like
that all the time. I don't know how supple you are, but most riders have
trouble riding in the really flat/forward position. I've moved my setup
back a bit and go faster as a result. You also risk injuting your
hamstrings going for such an extreme position.

I think you've got things a little backwards. There's often *less*
stress on your hamstrings in a forward position because your whole
body (upper body and legs) are rotated forward. Without moving the
saddle forward but using full-size aero bars, riders can overstretch
and thus stress their hamstrings and butt.

In terms of getting used to a position that's rotated forward, riding
in that position once or twice a week is enough. The key thing is to
make it easy to switch the bike back and forth. One way is to get a
second saddle and seatpost set-up with the new position, so you can
use just an allen key and no measuring (beyond a bit of tape around
each post) to swap saddle positions.

JT

PS -- if "suppleness" is a problem, then the rider should work on it.
He wants to get better and that should be encouraged, not discouraged.

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Ron Ruff said:

Peter Cole said:

Try clip-ons before you make any major investment. You don't need to do
any other modifications except perhaps moving your saddle forward.

Aerobars for sure, but I wouldn't recommend messing with the seat
position. Just use clipons with the proper reach (probably short) and
adjustable height, and get your upper body as low as you can while
still being comfortable. If you aren't too low at first, that's fine...
the aerobars will still help.

Well I did say "perhaps"... Many people find that aerobars make them
feel a little too stretched out and moving the saddle forward a bit can
compensate -- it also helps getting the back flat, which is pretty much
the point of the exercise.

It can take a bit of experimentation to get a bike dialed in for a
comfortable and efficient position. My favorite way of doing this is to
set a bike on a trainer and move things around. It's surprising how
small changes can make significant differences. With removable faceplate
stems, you can swap bars/stems fast if you leave them untaped. I like to
try a few stems and bars of different shapes, then experiment with bar
angle, brake lever position, seat position, etc. until I feel just right.

Peter Cole said:

It can take a bit of experimentation to get a bike dialed in for a
comfortable and efficient position. My favorite way of doing this is to
set a bike on a trainer and move things around. It's surprising how
small changes can make significant differences. With removable faceplate
stems, you can swap bars/stems fast if you leave them untaped. I like to
try a few stems and bars of different shapes, then experiment with bar
angle, brake lever position, seat position, etc. until I feel just right.

Yes!

JT

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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And as far as the wheels, a
friend of mine (who is a world-class duathlete) said that the Cosmos
are a totally fine, workman-like wheel that is VERY sturdy (he knows
people who use them for training purposes because of their durability).
And if I am only going to pick up, say, 400-500 grams by changing out
the wheels, am I going to start changing the stem, bars, etc...as well?
And is it worth it to put on wheels that may be less forgiving for the
rides that I take on city streets?

If this was me, I would sell the Cosmos and get some decent standard
wheels.
You will save weight and get easily repaired wheels. If there is any
climbing
involved during the race, 500 grams is noticeable.

Quoted message said:

Not looking for the "magical" answer here...just trying to ascertain
whether there is a wheel out there that would provide some step-up in
perfromance over the Cosmos without breaking the bank. And if I AM
onto something with replacing the crank, confirmation of that would
also be appreciated...

How big is your bank? Hard to make a recommendation without knowing what
your budget is.
------------
Alex

Might be useful to read the Tour magazin wheelset test. The Mavic Aksium (or
how they are spelled...) and Shimano R550 (again, check from the Tour
article...) were both priced close to 200 euros & pair, and their
performance as resistance within 30...50 kmh range and lateral stiffness
were equal or better to most other wheelsets priced to 1500...2000 euros. So
what can be gained by those extra 1500 euros? Maybe 200...400 grams less
weight. OTOH, the standard, 32 spoke, box shaped rim had clearly higher air
resistance at 50 kmh, something like 50 Watts against the 20...30 Watts
spectrum. But see the Tour for more details, they might have that article
available online as well.

Antti

D'ohBoy said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

A 105, 36h front hub, 28h rear 105 hub, laced to Velocity Deep V, DT
oval spokes, 18 radial in the front, 28 2 cross in the rear..about
$400..

I'm impressed. I have read your frequently stated aversion to radial
lacing. And here you are, advocating radial spoking. On a hub not
warranteed for radial lacing no less!

I have built more than a few radial for tri-people front wheels. As
much as I would like to 'cross' a 18 spoke wheel, ya can't do it. What
I object to is radial for 28 or 32h fronts which is dummmmm

Quoted message said:

I noticed you making positive comments about the new campy chains as
well - another thing you have expressed negative opinions on in the
past as well.

Well the new Campag chains are .......new-

Quoted message said:

Is it Peter or a Pod Person?!

;-)

D'ohBoy

bebopdeluxe said:

(snip) I understand that 1) the improvements that I will get from
some high-end wheels will probably not be great enough to justify the
cost (I am a 46-y.o. guy who did yesterday's 40K ride in 1:20...I'm not
getting near a podium any time soon)

That's a good performance. Don't let anyone kid you, as the saying
goes.

WTH, you can always go to the podium and applaud the mighty, you know?
(mild sarcasm off)

Second set of wheels? (Following Vecchio and others on this ng):
"Conventionals", your Ultegra hubs, 36h, 3x, butted spokes, brass
nipples to a set of rims that is close enough to what you have in the
sidewall dept. that you don't have to adjust your brake pads when
changing (convenience/safety factors). Velocity Aeroheads, OC version
in the rear if they work. Cool colors available <g>. Thus maximizing
pain-free mileage and low-cost, no-wait maintainance (no special parts,
tools, factory trips), for more free ride time, not getting "stuck"
without a spare to ride if (when) something does break. Spare wheels in
the trunk at events, if that applies... You can put a narrower tire on
your event front wheel, if the course is smooth, for another slight
advantage, and ride a real tire for other use, also.

While you're busy near-term with positioning and clip-on bar
investigations, you can cast your net for a "real" aero front wheel if
you want-- Campy Shamal, Vento, or maybe a TriSpoke for example, bought
second-hand in good shape, cheap. No hurry. --D-y