Which will it be Iran? Off the Map/back to

Discussion in 'Your Bloody Soap Box' started by ptlwp, Dec 14, 2005.

  1. Colorado Ryder

    Colorado Ryder New Member

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    You would think so.
     


  2. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    If you read the OT and Genesis, the first use of the word Israel is in connection with Jacob when God tells him that he (Jacob) is to be referred to
    Israel from that point onward.

    I don't recall reading the OT where it states that Israel/Palestine/Philistia was promised to anyone.
    There are references to God promising the "promised land".
    Promised land, where ? Promised land, to whom ? Promised, only to Jews ?

    It's open to interpretation as to the location and to whom the land was promised.

    As regards who dwelled where first - it is evident from Genesis that people were in the Holy Land, long before the Jewish religion devolved.

    Throughout chapters 1 - 34 there are references to Philistia, Babylon, Assyria.

    Whether the people in thse locations were generic to those lands or not, the claim made by the Jews based on Chapter 35 onwards in the Old Testament, completely dismisses the fact that other people were there that predated any promise of any land made to the Jews.
     
  3. Colorado Ryder

    Colorado Ryder New Member

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    Just because someone else lived there doesn't discount the fact the Bible states that God promised the land to the Hebrews.
    You know where the promised land is. All Catholics know what and where the promised land is. You are being facetious to act like you're not sure who the land was promised to. The bible specifically spells out who the people are who will go to the promised land.
    It was the promised land for the Hebrew slaves in Egypt. Whether it is still relavant now as a homeland for Jews is debatable.
    And whether it was called Israel or not in the bible is irrelavant. At one time the same land was called Judea. It is a Roman change on Judah or Yehuda in Hebrew. Judah was one of the sons of Jacob.
     
  4. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    The problem with this debate is yourself and Boogers seem to ignore information that is available to all of us on this matter.
    Lim, we seem to be going round in circles in perpetual motion :)
    Trust the experts, historians and academics: The Palestians you keep claiming are direct descendents of Philistines are not. I repeat once more for everone:
    The Palestinians who presently dispute land with Israel are an ethnic mix of former Turkish, Persian, Iraqi and Arab invaders who took advantage of a weakened Israel after Palestine was forcefully created by the Romans (along with Macedonia).
    To claim Palestinian moslems are direct descendents of the Philistines is the stuff of fiction, fantasy and comic books. No serious academic, archeologist or historian takes such an idea seriously.
    As for modern Jewish people, I'm keeping an open mind as to whether or not they are direct descendents of the Israelis who left Egypt (according to biblical sources).
    Unlike everybody else on this thread, what interests me is scientific fact. I don't see the point of basing any dispute on only one source The Torah) and dogmatically believeing what one wants to believe, purely to satisfy a racial or religious prejudice.
    Let's look at the facts logiccally and be open minded. :)

     
  5. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    The OT states "chosen people" and "promised land" : let's follow this to this conclusion to a RC/Christian viewpoint.

    The OT states that God will make a kingdom for his people :
    from a Catholic/Christian perspective, Jesus was born to restore to restore the covenant between Man and God.
    That, in RC/Christian context, was the opportunity for man (Jewish ?) to restore the Covenant.
    The Jewish people rejected Jesus and therefore rejected the Covenant.

    The Christian belief is in that in that rejection : and the death of Jesus restored the Covenant with mankind (Christian Mankind).

    Which begs the question : to whom was land promised ? and in what context was land offered.



    The promised land ?
    There is no teaching in the RC faith about a promised land : no land is deemed
    sacred in RC teaching.



    CR : there is no reference in the OT as to where the promised land is located.
    Nor is there any reference to Judea, Judah, Israel being deemed to be the promised land.

    The fact is that from a RC perspective the OT and most of what it contains is secondary to what the NT states.
     
  6. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    I agree they were treated badly. The fact Israel reformed through brute force presents us all with a human rights ethical problem. That is, the Palestinians were not to be blamed for happening to be resident in the region at the time.
    But I happen to think the terrible consequences of the hollocaust and continual anti semitism within Europe forced Israel's hand. They alone had no native land they could call their own as they had been dispossessed by countless incursions by Arabs and other nationalities throughout history.
    A tough decision was taken and it has upset pacifists worldwide. However, as davemc pointed out, Lim's and Booger's compassion has a narrow field of scope and chooses to ignore all other injustices.
    Boogers says little about Chechnya and Lim practically endorsed Iraq's invasion of Kuwait which seems like huge double standards (given how Kuwaitees were treated).
    And I'll tell you one thing for sure: If the Israelis weren't Israelis but Iranians taking land from the Palestinians, Boogers and Fred would be supporting the whole policy.

     
  7. FredC

    FredC New Member

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    Well done Crappy. I was only against the SOI before, but now my thoughts are turning to being anti-semitic as the diaspora seem to condone the Zionism, but are not residents of Israel.
     
  8. darkboong

    darkboong New Member

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    That is because you keep banging on about Israel moron, and it's something that I happen to have a little knowledge about. Chechnya is something that I don't know much about because the reporting has been pretty heavily silenced in the main. We hear a lot from Yeltsin and Putin, not much from the other side.

    To the credit of *some* Israelis and the Palestinians they are getting the message out and it is an important one.

    You don't speak for me Crappy, so fuck off.

    You have already stated that I am a pacifist and anti-war, yet there you are saying that I would support War. Your twisted mind appears to be incapable of producing anything other than contradiction and twisted reasoning.

    For the record (yet again) I most certainly would not support it. I am 100% anti-war, and 500% anti-Ethnic Cleansing. It is a waste of life and resources and most importantly it breaks entire generations of people.
     
  9. darkboong

    darkboong New Member

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    I trust the scientists more than the politicians, priests and historians tbh. Whatever their origin, the Palestinians are of the *same* genetic stock as the Israeli Jews, so they have just as much right to it.

    Furthermore Judaism is a religion, not a Genetic code.

    Get that into your skull boyo.

    Good plan, why don't you start with the fact that Israeli Jews and Gentiles (ie: Palestinians) come from the same Genetic stock ?
     
  10. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    I'm not a genetics wizard (I did study some) so I won't comment on the Madrid study too much at this stage. But I do know Palestinian academics took part in the research and no Jewish academics were represented. I also believe the study was published using terms that seemed to reflect possible bias and was heavily criticized.
    I recall similar studies being carried out between Spaniards and Basques to try and disprove the Basques were any different from the Spanish. I know enough to fathom that a lot of genetic research has been highly controversial and then challenged later on.
    You should bear in mind that Jews don't intermarry anything like as much as, say, Turks or Kurds or Arabs (or many other ethnic groups). Jews who reside in America face family pressures when they might wish to marry an American who isn't Jewish. Sometimes young Jews go ahead and marry but some have strict family ethics and try to find Jewish partners.
    This is part of the religion. It's been going on for centuries.
    In Israel, Jews speak Hebrew and this custom has been passed down the family line. Palestinians speak Arabic and are moslem.
    Some Palestinians, as you say, are indeed ethnic Jews. I don't deny that. Some Jews could have Arab blood too. But the overall picture is more complicated.

     
  11. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    "That is because you keep banging on about Israel moron, and it's something that I happen to have a little knowledge about. Chechnya is something that I don't know much about because the reporting has been pretty heavily silenced in the main. We hear a lot from Yeltsin and Putin, not much from the other side."

    Funny how they say name-calling and a few expletives indicate a debate is being lost!
    You just enforced my point. You don't really know much about Chechnya because you're not interested in Chechnya. The Russian troops who crushed Chechnyan militants aren't Jewish so it doesn't really matter what other countries do, correct?
    Same goes for Miloshevich. I never heard you pounding your chest and wailing in lamentation over the fact Serbian troops murdered Albanian moslems with a shot to the head.
    Nope, I believe you're too busy searching for stories about Israeli soldiers so you can basically go on and on about this idea of Israeli land-grabbers and innocent Palestinian victims. sadly it smacks of thirties Germany and the ide aof Jewish people supposedly taking over Germany's economy.
    The truth is you ignore anything that doesn't fit in with your theories and you preach all this stuff about victims while portraying yourself as some kind of Don Quixote left-wing saint who's promoting human rights.
    In truth, your anti semitic views would be most certainly frowned upon in Germany and you'd be accused of being a bigot. I'm sorry, but I do think you're starting out form a position of prejudice and making stuff up as you go along to fit in with your own agenda.
    And that agenda has a lot to do with being anti Jewish.
    So, take that!




     
  12. FredC

    FredC New Member

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    HeheheheheHohohohohoho. Crappy has blown himself into self combustion sparked by the CH4 from his arse.
     
  13. darkboong

    darkboong New Member

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    You start nearly every single post with name calling.

    There is no truth in that Crappy. You want the Gentile Semites wiped off the face of Israel, I want them to have the same rights as their Jewish brethren. As if that was bad enough you won't even acknowledge the existance of the Semite Gentiles whatsoever.
     
  14. darkboong

    darkboong New Member

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    There has been a lot of research all round the globe into the matter. If you had bothered to check up on it, rather than forming your own opinion out of the vacuum that lies between your ears, you would know that the guy I mentioned works at Tel Aviv Uni. That's a bit closer to Israel than Madrid last time I checked.
     
  15. darkboong

    darkboong New Member

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    As usual you have it arse over tit. Blood does not dictate which religion you practice.
     
  16. ptlwp

    ptlwp New Member

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    I shall have to discuss this further with my elder sibling, who explained it to me as such, and lives in the neighborhood. Don't kill the messenger.
     
  17. darkboong

    darkboong New Member

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    You could just google for the quotes, take a look at the sources yourself. I doubt you will get a change of mind from your elder sibling just because you ask them again.
     
  18. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    Hitler's Germany conducted many scientific genetic experiments e.t.c. to try and bolster the theory the Germans were a pure tuetonic race and that Jewish people could be identified by certain traits e.t.c.
    We've all been there before and it's nothing new.
    In the same way, you guys claim the Palestinians who dispute land with Israel are some kind of pure super-race directly descended from the mythical Philistines (who in actual fact were a totally distinct people and not in any way moslem). ;)
    But if you insist I'll forward you some info on the Madrid tests you refer to and we'll take things forward from there. But be on guard, though, you're on dodgy territory and the data you refer to has quite a few loopholes. ;)


     
  19. FredC

    FredC New Member

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    Bollocks, they didn't know about DNA at that time.
     
  20. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    Actually none of us on this side of the issue are claiming that the Palestinians are a pure super race.

    What we are disputing is the claim - made by the Zionists - that the land which was seceded from Palestine, was theirs since time in memorial.

    We have already shown that the political claim that the Zionists make, based on Genesis, is spurious.
    Their own religious texts shows that there were people on that land before them.

    It is YOU who use a (Jewish) religious viewpoint to support a (Zionist) political statement.
     
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