Which will it be Iran? Off the Map/back to

Discussion in 'Your Bloody Soap Box' started by ptlwp, Dec 14, 2005.

  1. ptlwp

    ptlwp New Member

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    As I said, he lives in Israel is an American by birth and seems to have the facts straighter than anything on Google.
     


  2. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    you know that you're replying to your own messages!
     
  3. darkboong

    darkboong New Member

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    Lucky for her because I would have sent her off with a flea in her ear.
     
  4. darkboong

    darkboong New Member

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    With all due respect : You don't speak for me, fuck off.

    I wasn't referencing the Madrid stuff anyway Crappy. You would know that if you bothered to read up on the matter before forming your opinion.

    As for the Madrid study, as far as I know there has been zero qualfiied peer reviewed of the work because the publisher pulled it before peer review could happen.

    There are at least half a dozen other studies into the matter that drew the same conclusions last time I checked.
     
  5. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    You're not in a position to argue over genetics any more than I am, although I did study genetics some years ago as a subsid. That was a long time ago but I did study human biology. So, put that in your pipe and smoke it! :p
    Suffice it to say, that if you choose to take the argument in that direction it will all get a lot more complicated as there are scores of counter-research claims for the studies you cite.
    Theory displaces theory.
    Antonio Villena whom you quote also believes Greeks are related to Ethiopians and his claims have been hugely criticized or even discredited by other researchers:
    "The study contradicts all other genetic research on Greeks and has been heavily criticized by other population geneticists."
    Your problem is you accept any study that suits your own viewpoint as absolute gospel but you don't bother to look up any counter argument or keep an open mind."

     
  6. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    Another major criticism is the fact you don't tend to reflect any balance in the views you put forward.
    I'm waiting for the distant day when you're going to post a theme that laments human rights abuses perpetrated by some other nation or army. :eek:
    So far, you've never been seen wringing your hands over the lot of the Aboriginees in Australia or the fate of the people of Zimabwe. As Davemc once pointed out it's what we call compassion of convenience. The victims of Saddam Hussein mean far less to you than any victims found in the Palestinian population.
    Funny I never heard you say a great deal about the victims of terrorist attacks either or any thought that those responsible should be tracked down.
    If you were expressing indignation over Palestine in conjunction with similar indignation related to other nations and human rights abuses, I'd perceive your views as being far more balanced and rational.

     
  7. darkboong

    darkboong New Member

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    Cite them then. Your opinion has zero credibility as far as Genetics goes, you have no counter evidence to present of your own, present your "counter-research" (which isn't a valid scientific approach anyway)... Oh and don't forget to provide attribution.

    You don't even know the difference between theory, hypothesis and opinion.

    Even if that *were* true, that doesn't disprove his findings with respect to the genetic ancestry of Israeli Jews and Gentiles. Besides, I presented the Tel Aviv researcher Crappy, whom you have steadfastly refused to look into.

    That quote is useless without attribution and context. For all I know you just made it up, in fact you probably did.

    You just posted some unattributed stuff that critiques an apparently unrelated piece of work by a *different* researcher working at a *different* university. Accepting scientific evidence would appear to be your problem Crappy.

    1) You are so out of touch with scientific method that you believe in "counter-research" (ie: research that by definition puts desired results before actual "discovery"). I bet that you can't even tell me why putting a-priori results before discovery is fundamentally incompatible with scientific method.

    2) You won't even provide a single reference for any of your "data" which is a fundamental requirement of scientific method. I bet that you can't even tell my why stating your references is fundamental to scientific method.

    We're only having a knock about discussion here Crappy, but you can't even name your source without me digging it up for you. That just ain't science, it's kindergarten rhetoric.
     
  8. darkboong

    darkboong New Member

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    Weird, because I talk about victims of terrorist attacks all the time and you complain about me being biased when I do so. As to thought that those responsible should be tracked down, we recently discussed a thread where I said we should do exactly that.

    You even responded to my suggestion of letting the investigation run it's course before pointing the finger. Your "solution" was to work over the immigants first, which would have achieved fuck all because none of the bombers were immigrants.

    What makes this most recent bundle of blatant lies about what I have and have not said even more weird is the fact that it was you who dredged up that entire thread with yet more lies about what I said.

    Lie after lie after lie after lie. Ever considered a career in politics ? You could be the new Goering, (I did say Goebbels but you lack his finesse).
     
  9. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    You've apparently chosen to take this debate into fresh waters and I already stated I'm fine going into this area if you want. But be warned, it's going to get technical.

    "Even if that *were* true, that doesn't disprove his findings with respect to the genetic ancestry of Israeli Jews and Gentiles. Besides, I presented the Tel Aviv researcher Crappy, whom you have steadfastly refused to look into."

    In actual fact, I've been reading through some of the data and have the some of the stuff in Spanish. As I said, you chose to take this thread into fresh waters and I already made it clear I would supply you with some information as I glean it.

    As I understand it, your argument revolves around a study that concluded Jews are exactly identical to Palestinians. But I know enough about these kinds of surveys to proceed with caution. At this stage I'm not going to draw any conclusions as I haven't sifted through all the information.

    What I do know is the analyst you cite has been challenged by other geneticists and I promise I'll find time to forward you the responses by other universities to the data he published. I can't be more reasonable than that.





     
  10. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    "Your "solution" was to work over the immigants first, which would have achieved fuck all because none of the bombers were immigrants."

    Here are the names of the people who carried out the London bombings:

    Mohammad Sidique Khan, Hasib Hussain, 18, and Shehzad Tanweer.

    That's hardly Smith and Jones, is it?

    I sometimes wonder why you politically correct folks seem so removed from basic realities. If I go to live in China as an immigrant, it doesn't make me instantly Chinese. I can have kids in China but when they grow up, it won't make them Chinese either. People can be polite and comment I speak damned good Mandarin but we all know I'm not Chinese. I'm English.

    I lived 5 years in Spain but that doesn't make me Spanish.

    These people were immigrants. If you want to be spot on they were the offspring of immigrants.

    As Dave Mc tried to explain to you, it was obvious that an attack on that scale was motivated by religious extremism and common sense dictated you shouldn't be looking for the terrorists in a countryside village. :confused:






     
  11. darkboong

    darkboong New Member

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    You don't understand it. Re-read the post.

    He's not an "analyst", he is a scientist.

    Just names will do Crappy. You still owe us names for the quotes you've already come up with.
     
  12. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    O.K. here is the score:
    These scientists you refer to seem to me to be totally discredited. I've been apparently wasting my time reading this research but now I find the reason why all of this stuff has been dismissed by other universities. :(
    The first study I've looked into is totally biased. It smacks of Stalinist studies on genetics in the thirties that totally rejected western research and had a political agenda behind it.
    How can anyone possibly take any of this research seriously when it was conducted partly by Palestinians and the author uses the kind of language I quote below?
    "He accepts he used terms in the article that laid him open to criticism. There is one reference to Jewish 'colonists' living in the Gaza strip, and another that refers to Palestinian people living in 'concentration' camps. 'Perhaps I should have used the words settlers instead of colonists, but really, what is the difference?' he said.
    What's the difference? The difference is clear: Any responsible academic does his research outside of politics and independently. Scientists and researchers have no business approaching any kind of study with a pre-conceived agenda.
    A researcher who claims he's not in any way biased yet states Palestinians live in concentration camps simply can't be trusted. That isn't the language used by any neutral academic.
    From what I know so far, this study is a total farce.




     
  13. darkboong

    darkboong New Member

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    I bet you can't spot the contradiction in that line.
     
  14. darkboong

    darkboong New Member

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    Name the Universities.

    Oh dear, there's your opinion again.

    Science is science regardless of who does it.

    No attribution again. No credit given. Why are you so coy about your sources Crappy ? Is it because they might just be heavily biased with a political agenda ?

    Damn straight.

    The term "Concentration Camp" is in fact used by Academics. That has little bearing on the technical merits of his work (and this is the Madrid study you are talking about, not the Tel Aviv one - but we wouldn't know that because you have not stated your sources at all).

    The farce here is you Crappy. For starters you have not stated which study you are talking about, you haven't even stated where you quoted from *AGAIN*, so for all we know you are just making stuff up again. Setting all that aside you have not attacked a single techincal aspect of the study. The man could be Coco the Clown but his method and results could still be correct. The only "counter-research" (LOL) that you have provided is solely character assasination, it doesn't concern the study or the results of the study whatsoever.

    That post of yours vividly illustrates your fundamental lack of understanding of scientific method.
     
  15. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    It's a free world in my book. You have a right to your views and I have a right to mine. Obviously we disagree. There isn't any real animosity on my part, though. ;)
    The only thing I can advise is you read information that gives you a variety of viewpoints and then you must decide where you stand.
    Maybe you misunderstand me slightly. I do think the Palestinians have rights and I believe in human rights and that nobody should have those rights abused. Even Melanie Phillips has admitted the Israeli army has lacked compassion in dealing with Palestinians and this hasn't helped them.
    Just like you and Lim, I would like to see moslems and Jews and Christians living in peace. But it's funny how none of us can really agree so how are these people ever going to agree? That's the problem.
    The funny thing is this debate seems to have gotten everybodys backs up and I'm not even religious myself. I don't know, maybe we should just repect each others opinion and agree to disagree. ;)

     
  16. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    Nope, I wouldn't make anything up. Here is something I just found and you'll find what I quoted:
    http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,605798,00.html
    It even comes from your own source The Guardian.
    In short, all of this stuff seems highly suspicious to me. I'm totally against carrying out any kind of study or research with a predetermined agenda. History and social studies have to be neutral. I was disappointed by what I read so far.
    I'm now very suspicious of these studies you refer to.
    It's up to you to read up on the issue and consider the whole range of views available on the topic.

     
  17. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    "Jews and Palestinians in the Middle East share a very similar gene pool and must be considered closely related and not genetically separate, the authors state. Rivalry between the two races is therefore based 'in cultural and religious, but not in genetic differences', they conclude."
    http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,605798,00.html

    Lots of races share "similar gene pools". Many races may appear "closely related" on the surface.
    However, Jewish people practise circumcision and have a custom of intermarrying. Part of the religion has to do with maintaining racial identity, a bit like the Athenians and Spartans used to do in ancient times.
    Jews speak Hebrew and have done for centuries. Palestinians speak Arabic. I agree there are some Jews who are possibly Palestinians and some Palestinians are Jewish, so to speak.
    But this study in particular seems to me to be a lot of nonsense when you look into it closely. If it had any real impartiality and credibility I wouldn't be so negative towards it.



     
  18. darkboong

    darkboong New Member

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    That's not my source, in fact it's the first time I've seen the whole article. My *original* source quoted that article Guardian and took a look at the *technical* findings of the study. Interesting to note that there is no reference whatsoever to the findings of that study being disputed in that article. The censorship was imposed on the basis of calling Settlers "Colonists" (which they arguably are), and the use of the term "Concentration Camp" for the camps outside of Israel. Which is *entirely* true, that is precisely what they are (admittedly, not of the Nazi variety, more like the British Colonial variety - which were appear to have been just as nasty in terms of death rates).

    Again, you failed to challenge the findings of that study.

    The Tel Aviv one conducted by Jews ?

    There is no way in hell that we'll see eye to eye as long as you choose politics and censorship over science.

    You should check out the credentials of the Editor : "Nicole Sucio-Foca"... Specifically that she hails from Columbia University. There is a certin chap called Daniel Pipes who has Columbia Uni in a stranglehold, he is a close friend of Melanie P's no less. You might wish to check out some of his other handywork at Columbia University. It is a small world...

    For my money that article was pulled for political reasons, not because the genetic research was shown to be false. It's up to you to find technical rebuttals.
     
  19. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    So far, what I found about these studies you refer to leads me to conclude they were highly suspect. I didn't know specifically which study you refer to but the main one I looked up was dismissed instantly by researchers as a whole.
    I couldn't figure out why till I discovered the language used by the people who conducted the study. It goes way beyond anything you could deem "impartial".
    It's somehow like having a couple of members of the KKK involved in a study to try and prove whether black people differ from white e.t.c.
    The second point is I'm not the one who's reduced to cussing online, using block letters and getting flustered. It seems to me you're not quite happy with anyone challenging the views you've been preaching as gospel under the pretext of being a peacenik. Someone has challenged your views for a change and you don't like it.
    The fact you are now apparently resorting to so-called scientific tests that we're supposed to believe prove Jewish people are really Arabs kind of has a Third Reich tone to it. Similar studies were conducted by the German scientists during the war - the same people who seriously believed the Germans themselves were of pure Arian stock.




     
  20. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    O.K., folks, this is for everybody. If you don't know a lot about this Israel/Palestinian dispute, let's have a recap:
    Israel is accused of stealing land from the Palestinians.
    Anyone who has an old map or Atlas may feel free to trace the maps back to the foundation of Israel as an Empire under King David and Solomon where you should find Judea and Israel marked out.
    King David (c.1004-965 BCE) established Israel as a major power in the region by successful military expeditions, including the final defeat of the Philistines, as well as by constructing a network of friendly alliances with nearby kingdoms.
    Follow through and you'll find Israel lost territory after invasions by Arab ancestors. Jews were invaded by Babylon (modern Iraq) and Persia (modern Iran) as well as Assyria.
    Assyria invaded Israel 722 - 720 B.C.
    Judah conquered by Babylonia; Jerusalem and First Temple destroyed; most Jews exiled to Babylonia. 586 B.C.
    Conclusion: Islamic forefathers invaded Israel many times throughout history. Arabs took land from Jews.
    There was never any Palestinian State. In 132 A.D. the Jews revolted against the Romans and only then was a Palestinian State formed, against the wishes of the conquered Jewish rebels. The Palestinian State was a foreign imposition not a state of affairs the Jews ever agreed to.
    "Following the suppression of Bar Kokhba's revolt, the emperor Hadrian changed the name of the province to Syria Palaestina (term originally coined by Herodotus) and Jerusalem became Aelia Capitolina in order to humiliate the Jewish population by attempting to erase their historical ties to the region."
    The Arabs States claim Jerusalem should be an Islamic capital and they have more rights to Jerusalem and Israel as a whole than Jews or Christians. The claim has been made on the basis of the Palestinians themselves but also on religious grounds.
    Islam was founded as a world religion around 622 A.D. many centuries after the Roman World had disappeared (around 450 A.D.)
    Judaism was active in Israel and Judea around 1000 B.C.
    The Arab States claim Palestinians were in Israel prior to the Jews. The truth is the Palestinian people are not related to the original Philistines who were defeated by Israel after 1004 B.C. Palestinian moslems arrived far later on after the Romans left. Some of the Palestinians may have Philistine genetic traits but these are a tiny minority, if any.
    "In their veins (the Palestinians) run the blood of the ancient Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Crusaders and Turks ... It must be fully conceded that the Palestinians are a very mixed group of people ... each group of Palestinians traces its ancestry over differing lengths of time."
    The big lie propagated by Islamic clerics is that Jews stole land from the Palestinians when they re-established Israel by force. The truth is, modern Palestinians are the ancestors of invaders who ethnically cleansed Jews from Israel.
    This is why so many Jews came to live in Russia, Germany and Poland.
     
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