Which will it be Iran? Off the Map/back to

Discussion in 'Your Bloody Soap Box' started by ptlwp, Dec 14, 2005.

  1. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    Happy Christmas to all. Mabe this thread will die of natural caused by New Year, who knows.
    At any rate, I've spent some time researching some very ancient history and have taken great pains to avoid Christian, Moslem or Jewish sources. I wanted to look into what has been proposed about the Palestinians originating from Philistia and lots of other matters that have been raised.
    Here is an approved chronological chart officially endorsed. What it indicates is that the Israelis were preceded by a very similar culture the Canaanites who also had some interesting religious views and one or two cultural eccentricities. After them come the Amorites.
    The Philistines arrive quite late around the 12th and 11th centuries B.C.
    I'm hoping this will also be interesting for Colorado Rider who probably studied some of this history.
    By the way, the Philistines spoke a kind of proto-Greek and definitely originate in Crete as we have some words of their language that resemble Mycenaean influence. They were a sea faring nation and settled in Ashkelon, Asdod and Gaza. Later on, some of their number intermarried with the semitics peoples who were already in the region:
    8300 - 4000 B.C. Neolithic epoch, Jericho,
    3150 - 2200 Early Canaanite
    2200 - 2000 Semi-nomad invader, Middle Canaanite
    2000 - 1800 Amorite invasions and immigrations
    19th, 16th centuries the Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, Jacob
    1800 - 1550 Egyptian domination
    14th cent Labaya the Lion man at Schechem
    1300 Departure of Joesph for Egypt
    12th cent invasions and immigrations of Joshua
    12th 11th centuries: The Judges and Firt Commonwealth
    12th 11th centuries settlements of Philistines.
     


  2. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    I think there are basic similarities between thirties Germany ideology and ideology endorsed by the extremist clerics. I'm not saying all Moslems endorse those extremist views and even the Palestinians took a poke at Iran for interfering.
    I heard one guy who lived in France during the occupation testify how German troops entered his school and burned all the history books to be replaced by one particular slant.
    The current argument I keep hearing is Israel never existed or, if it did exist, the Palestinians were there first. After that comes the conclusion Jerusalem should be dominated by Islam as the main significant world religion.
    That leaves both Orthodox and Christian Jews deprived of their history and heritage. To me that doesn't seem at all fair or remotely based on the true archeological picture.
    Some of the history gets very complicated at times and there are lots of things the archeologists, scientists and historians don't quite agree on. But from what I researched so far to add to what I know already, the various tribes of Jews have every right to continue their traditions and maintain their ancient culture in their homeland.
    The Palestinian extremists have been trying to write Israel out of the history books and deny they were ever in the region and that boils down to propaganda not history.
    Happy Xmas to all :)





     
  3. darkboong

    darkboong New Member

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    If by Palestinians you mean Gentiles, then yes that is the case. Judaism is nowhere near as old as civilisation, therefore the Gentiles of the region were there first.

    Gentiles lived in Israel before Judaism came into existance. You have never denied that. The Jews and Gentiles that live in Israel today are descended from common ancestors. You have failed to present any evidence whatsoever that disproves that (your 'counter-research' consisted solely of second hand character assassinations from extremist zionist lobbyists led by none other than Daniel Pipes).

    You can rehash, duck, dive, evade, lie and bullshit as much as you like Crappy, but the Gentiles *were* in Israel first. Some of the earliest evidence of farming is from that very region, and predates Judaism by at least 7000 years. So someone was there before the Jews, and since the Jews came into existance they have lived side by side with Gentiles in that land. The Gentiles have just as much right to that land.

    You will *not* find me making any exceptions for any other religion or race either Crappy. There is no way that I will ever agree to your concept of Racial Primacy on the basis of religion, it is sick.

    I don't see that conclusion Crappy. Quite the reverse. Lim has dug up a pile of historical precedent that points to all faiths getting on along in Jerusalem.

    I'm with Yasser Arafat's PLO charter on this issue. I quoted the relevant article from the 1967 PLO charter some months back. That article explicitly states that *all* races and creeds (including Jews) should have access to Jerusalem. They got that one dead right in my opinion. As far as I can tell you are pretending that article never existed in the PLO charter because it doesn't match with what Mel P and Dan P have told you about Palestinians.

    Sure, no one is arguing with that. We're arguing that the Zionists don't have the right (or historical precedent) to deny those same rights to Gentiles.

    The PLO acknowledged the existence and right to existance of Israel many many years ago. I notice that Mel P and Dan P refuse to acknowledge that raw fact, whenever they are presented with it they accuse the messenger of naivette and scream Golda Meir's quote regarding the sea as an exultation to a vengeful god. Realistically, even if Meir was right, that is certainly not the case today.

    The question I ask is why do Crappy, Mel P, Dan P and their friends tell us that it is our moral duty to base our judgement on 50 or 5000 year old misquotes ?
     
  4. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    Again, my major gripe with your views is that they are discriminatory and you haven't made any similar arguments with respect to other countries.
    That is, there were populations who lived in Greece before modern Greeks and how come you've never claimed the whole of Greece should revert to the old Roman borders of Achaia and Macedonia? You suggest modern Israel should fix its borders according to the Roman settlement that brought about a Palestinian state called Palaestina.
    With regard to the other points, you're incorrect. The Amorites were a semitic race and preceded the Philistines by many many years. The Amorites were pre Canaanite. And as I stated before, the Philistineses were not Arabic but spoke proto-Greek and arrived from Crete (this is agreed by linguists who were involved in the study of linerar A and linear B script).
    Another point about the Philistines is many were absorbed under Solomon and acted as a kind of praetorian guard within the Israeli Commonwealth in the way the Romans recruited soldiers from Germany.
    But again, they arrived originally from Crete way after the Amorites.
    I keep returning to the main point that this whole conflict centres around religion and it's more about Christians and Moslems seeking control over Jerusalem than anything else.
    Myself (not being guided by political propaganda or religion) can see Judaism is the oldest religion in the region next to the beliefs of the Canaanites. In historical terms of antiquity, Christians came much later and Moslems arrived very late. This gives Hebrew-speaking modern Jews more right to be where they are than the moslems who arrived late.
    Israel and Judah formed a huge Empire under Solomon and King David at a time when moslems simply didn't exist. In those very ancient times, people followed Judaism not Islam.
    The worrying thing is those who share your views have taken to removing maps, ignoring archeological evidence and dismissing historical research.

     
  5. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    "If by Palestinians you mean Gentiles, then yes that is the case. Judaism is nowhere near as old as civilisation, therefore the Gentiles of the region were there first."

    Going on that theory of yours, I see no reason why the Brits shouldn't hand territory and land over to Italy. The Romans were in Britain prior to the modern English, Scots, Welsh and Irish. The native Britons who resided on this island prior to the arrival of the Romans consisted of tribes such as the Iceni.
    But modern Brits are a mixture of Gauls and Saxons e.t.c. who arrived here when the Romans left.
    This has been my point all along. You twist and bend history like a rubber band to try and prove Israel never existed or that some 5000 years of Jewish historic sites in the Middle East isn't enough time to have any rights to form a state. You lament human rights abuses committed by Israeli troops but say very little about Japan, Germany or human rights in Iran.
    In my book, that's called discrimination. ;)







     
  6. darkboong

    darkboong New Member

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    It's not a theory Crappy. It is fact and logic.

    That is because you are pathologically unreasonable.

    There you go lying again, I have talked about Iran. Japan and Germany is past history, I can't change it, but I will try to learn from it. On the other hand Israel is today, it's well documented and there is a hell of a lot of people who want it changed. There's a good chance something can happen for the better there, particularly since the Vatican has put it's oar in to muddy the waters.

    Also, with regards to Iran, Iran isn't walling up and shelling 50% of it's population because they aren't Jewish. For that reason and the will and opportunity for change Israel remains at the top of the agenda as far this thread goes.

    Apparently you can't actually read because you don't seem to have taken on board anything that contradicts your pre-conceptions.
     
  7. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    There aren't any similarities between German ideology in the 1930's and Islam.
    To state that there is - is another lie.

    You did say that Moslems were extremists and you have been scaremongering
    since you started waffling here.


    Then you need to get your hearing tested.

    We suggested that Jerusalem be an open city as mandated under the UN 1947 Declaration.

    In addition, it needs to be stated yet again, that the Jews and Christians were given open access to Jerusalem for 8 centuries when it was under Moslem control between 12 - 20th centuries.
     
  8. FredC

    FredC New Member

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    Crappy is fudamentally bonkers and has no coherent logic in any discussion whatsover. Firstly he declares that Israel won the wars 'fair and square'. and that they are entitled to grand theft, genocide, and displacement of lawful deed holding owners of land and property, in Israel, and now in the occupied West Bank.
    Then he mentions Germany. Well the Allies won the war 'fair and square', but no nation went about stealing land and property, ethnic cleansing, nor displacement of the vanquished. Not even the Communists.
    So I'm so pleased that his family dumped him for Chrimbo. No doubt he'll blame the Moslems. Hehehehehehehe and Hohohohohoho.
     
  9. FredC

    FredC New Member

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    And I don't remember him mentioning Christian Arabs in Israel who are also
    disenfranchised along with all the other Moslem Arabs in modern day Israel, or indeed Christian Arabs in the illegally occupied West Bank. I met a lot of those.
     
  10. darkboong

    darkboong New Member

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    This is why I've been reframing my arguments in terms of Jews and Gentiles.

    Israel's Hubris may catch up with it yet. The Cradle of Christianity has been deeply wounded by the wall, and the Vatican are *not* happy...
     
  11. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    I agree with Fred and DB : I prefer to keep this discussion soely about politics but it seems that our Dail Mail reading friend insists on bringing religion in to it.

    I will agree with DavidMc : church and state must be separate.
     
  12. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    If there isn't any similarity between the extremist Islamic mullahs in Iran and WW2 Germany, then what's with all these placards in Tehran calling for the destruction of Israel and death to all Jews?
    This is my question.
    Another point is I happened to view footage of the Paris suburb riots which we were told were an expression of despair by mixed Algerians who were supposed to be so poor and downtrodden they had no choice but to riot.
    These scenes I saw didn't reveal people acting out of despair. What I saw was gangs throwing molotov cocktails and laughing in the process as cars were set alight.
    And the fact remains hundreds of Jews were forced to flee these thugs and return to their homeland in the same way as Jewish communities fled Poland in WW2.
    So, I have good grounds for my belief that Europe is once more appeasing anti-semitism and this is very dangerous territory - considering how such a state of affairs brought about the fall of Germany.


     
  13. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    You simply can't address the situation in the Middle East without realising the whole conflict is about religion.
    George Bush as a Catholic and the evengelistic neo-cons don't specifically support Judaism or Israel in the truest sense. What they seek is some kind of control over Christian sites within Jerusalem - and concerns over Israelis come second.
    Israel had to keep quiet about the Iraq War and the real motive for that was oil, not Israel's security.
    Moslems seek the Isalmisazation of Jerusalem, plain and simple. This isn't rocket science. There is no logical reason why Arabs should want control over Jerusalem other than control of the so-called holy sites e.t.c.
    The situation is, America (being a deeply religious country) has no intention of allowing Moslems to control Jerusalem.
    Neither do the Jews but, of course, they are sandwiched in the middle.
    And back on religion, the most fundamental point is that the oldest religion and most ancient religious sites aren't Islamic but Judaic.
    Islam isn't what we would term an ancient religion at all. There were never any moslems residing in Israel even before the advent of Christianity or during Roman rule. That point can't be stressed more strongly. Islamic clerics have no fundamental historic claim over Jerusalem.
    The Philistines they are supposed to have been descended from were not moslems but spoke proto-Greek and arrived much later than the Hebrews:
    "Excavations of Late Bronze strata in the Philistine cities of Ashkelon, Ashdod and Ekron have produced only Canaanite pottery, not a single shard of Philistine pottery. The three cities were destroyed in about 1180 B.C., at the end of the Late Bronze period. The new chronology would date this event to 820 B.C..The Philistines who settled in Ashkelon and Ekron in the eighth year of Ramesses III built new, well organized cities on the ruins of the Canaanite Late Bronze cities, and introduced an entirely different culture, characterized by Mycenaean IIIC:1b pottery."




     
  14. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    The earliest inhabitants of Jerusalem were the Canaanites, specifically the Jebusites. These Canaanites were a semitic people who spoke an early version of Hebrew and were more closely related to Hebrews. The only difference was they were not monotheistic.
    The Jebusites were later defeated by King David who made Jerusalem the capital of a monarchy called Israel. So, although David wasn't the first monarch or ruler in Jerusalem, he won the city fair and square by war and established an Empire.
    So, there is no real possibility of ducking, dodging, or attempting to rewrite history.
    Once again, there was no Islamic religion or moslems living in Jerusalem in very ancient times. Moslems were the actual invaders and invaded centuries after the Canaanites were living in Jerusalem.
    "When it first appears in historical records, Jerusalem was inhabited by a Canaanite tribe. The Bible specifies them as the Jebusites, and says they ruled it until its conquest by King David. After taking control of it from the Canaanites, Jews formed the majority of the population of Jerusalem until its destruction by Rome in the second century."
     
  15. Dondare

    Dondare New Member

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    It is the Muslims (various sects) who insist on bringing religion to the forefront of any argument.
     
  16. FredC

    FredC New Member

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    What the hell are you talking about? It's the jews, remember them? Judaism, a religion who claim that a mythical unproven God pomised them that they could do what they like. The issue in Israel and the occupied West Bank is about theft of property from the indigenous Arabs.
     
  17. Jupiler

    Jupiler New Member

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    Why don't you give up man, you're sounding the more and more insane...:rolleyes:

    "And the fact remains hundreds of Jews were forced to flee these thugs and return to their homeland in the same way as Jewish communities fled Poland in WW2."
    This is unbelievable! No one was forced to flee...have you ever talked to a French jew? many of them come from the same countries as the Arabs (Morocco, Tunisia) and are happy in France. By the way, do you think the Jews are the only ones to suffer from violence in big cities? What about all the other communities that suffer from criminality and intimidation...? It's only when something happens to jews, they cry holocaust...

    "So, I have good grounds for my belief that Europe is once more appeasing anti-semitism and this is very dangerous territory - considering how such a state of affairs brought about the fall of Germany."
    Even Sharon commended Chirac for his effort to fight anti-semitism, so what's your point? I don't think I've ever heard a belgian or any other Euro call for the persecution of jews. On the other hand I've heard loads of times that 'we should deport/kill/gas all those stinking arabs'...that I've heard plenty of times!
     
  18. Jupiler

    Jupiler New Member

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    Do you even know the difference between an ethnicity(race), a religion, nationality, etc...? The more you're trying to defend those Isaeli bastards, the more I hate them really. Anythime I see those cunts with their "we have a birthrite to this land"-crap, makes me want to puke.

    "Israel had to keep quiet about the Iraq War and the real motive for that was oil, not Israel's security."

    Maybe this had something to do with it too: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,940250,00.html
     
  19. darkboong

    darkboong New Member

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    I suspect Mel P and her Zionist chums would have us believe that Arabs are not human, therefore they can't own property, therefore it's not theft...
     
  20. Jupiler

    Jupiler New Member

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    So 'might is right', that's your theory? So if the Americans, with their mighty army would invade and kick you all out of England, you would call that 'fair and square'?

    Anyway can you tell me what a Jew is anyway? No ancient history crap, I'm not interested!
    A new baby is born, what makes it a Jew? And why should he have more rights to the West bank then I do?
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4560550.stm
     
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