Which will it be Iran? Off the Map/back to

Discussion in 'Your Bloody Soap Box' started by ptlwp, Dec 14, 2005.

  1. darkboong

    darkboong New Member

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    That's as maybe, but there were gentiles on that land before Judaism ever existed. Why won't you admit Gentiles existed in Israel before, during and after the foundation of Judaism, Crappy ?

    Is it because you are a religious fundamentalist yourself ?
     


  2. Dondare

    Dondare New Member

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    The Jews insist that the land is theirs because it is the "Promised Land" but they are also capable of being very secular and very pragmatic. Obviously the Zionists are intent on occupying the whole lot but right at the moment the Israeli Government is ready to make deals with the Palestinians and Israeli troops have been evicting Jewish settlers in order get an agreement from the Palestinian leaders to stop the bombers.
    The Iranians are governed by their clerics, their politics and their religion are one and the same.
     
  3. EoinC

    EoinC New Member

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    Weird, Carrera, very weird. Lim, DB and Fred have never claimed (in any of the posts that I have read) that the Jews don't have a right to live in Israel. They have only claimed that the Zionists (who make up an extremist minority, albeit that many are in powerful positions) need to stop their violent oppression. This hardly smacks of the anti-semitism which brings you harking back to Nazi Germany / Austria.
    You, on the other hand, have continually proffered that the Palestinians should leave and be absorbed by neighbouring Countries. That sounds a lot closer to a fascist view to me.
    To try to divide peoples of the Middle East up by the length of time their respective religions have been in place is the biggest piece of bullshit I have heard in a long time. For a start, they all grew out of the same cultural situation. The first Christians were Jews who believed, (unlike those who continued with Judaism) that Jesus was the Mesaiah. Moslem's believed that Jesus was a Prophet, but that Muhammad was the one true Prophet. They may all fight over whether their particular beliefs are right or not, but I don't think any of them are fighting about "my religion is older than yours". Let's grab some animists from Baia in PNG, or some desert dwellers from out of Warburton in Australia, and put them in Israel cos' their history beats the crap out of anything you have offered.
    Your Winner-takes-all crap tells us that Israel should be handed over to the Italians since their Granpappies managed to win it "fair and square".
    As the descendent of an animist Canaanite, I find your historic ramblings decidedly one-sided in their erroneous conclusions.
    Jews and Gentiles should be able to live peaceably in Israel. Your xenophobic rantings are one of the reasons why this does not happen. You are the one who is spreading division amongst the people. Perhaps you should be President of Iran - you seem to think along similar lines - only the names were changed to protect the innocent.
    Anyway, as a much-diluted Canaanite, I say "Git orff my land!" :D
     
  4. Colorado Ryder

    Colorado Ryder New Member

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    If Muslim's believe Jesus was a prophet and that Muhammad was the one true prophet, then that means they believe jesus was a false prophet?
     
  5. Colorado Ryder

    Colorado Ryder New Member

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    What the hell is an animist Canaanite?
     
  6. EoinC

    EoinC New Member

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    I'm no expert, CR, but my understanding is that the original belief held him as being pretty good, but not a top-seeded player. I'm guessing that, when this was all going on, things were viewed along the lines of wise, wiser, wisest. Over the last couple of milleniums, these three main judaic religions have moved apart in their interpretations, and the Zoroastrians have headed off into a whole different postcode.
     
  7. EoinC

    EoinC New Member

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    They were the people who were sitting playing in the sand when King David came over the crest of the hill (although, by that time, they were probably polytheists rather than animists, but Carrera wants history and animism preceeds polytheism).
     
  8. Colorado Ryder

    Colorado Ryder New Member

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    So the Muslim's view Muhammad as a Roger Federer and Jesus as a Andy Roddick.
     
  9. EoinC

    EoinC New Member

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    Something like that - maybe more Eddie-the-Eagle than Andy Roddick (I assume Eddie plays tennis like he ski-jumps). Aren't analogies fun?
    Have a Happy New Year, CR and all.
     
  10. lwedge

    lwedge New Member

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    I didn't think Muhammad played that well on clay ?

    Lw
     
  11. ptlwp

    ptlwp New Member

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    Sunny Listen turned into Clay.
     
  12. lwedge

    lwedge New Member

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    I was a very little kid when I heard that fight. My father was a big Sonny Listen fan.

    :D
     
  13. Dondare

    Dondare New Member

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    Clay turned into Mohamed.
     
  14. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    Has anyone noticed a definite swing away from the former "Palestinians were there first" argument?
    Now we have a new line: The Jews weren't the first occupants of the so-called promised land, the gentiles were there first. :confused:
    Of course the Jews weren't the very first race to occupy this land. Neither was Judaism the very first religion. And Islam came very late, way after the Romans had been and gone.
    Here is how it works, roughly:
    The original God The Father was venerated by the Canaanites who were a semitic race (coming before the Hebrews). God The Father was called El Elyon and he had a son called Baal.
    God The Father already had a son centuries before Christianity appeared on the scene.
    Not only that but, according to the Canaanite belief system, Baal descended into the underworld where he broke the power of his enemy called Mot (who symbolised death).
    So, the Canaanites believed in El Elyon who had a son who was resurrected. The Hebrews inherited El Elyon from the semitic Canaanites and called him Yahwe. Some Jews adopted other gods including Baal and not all Jews were monotheistic.
    But the oldest religion in the region is this Canaanite religion. The second oldest religion was Judaism. Islam came so late that my own personal view is anyone who tries to argue Moslems were there first is simply churning out propaganda and not being objective.





     
  15. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    This is quite true, more or less. We should also bear in mind the Jewish Monarchy under David and Solomon was about as brief as the Soviet Union. The Jews had a very powerful Empire and strong alliances with their neighbours but lived mainly as communities before the Monarchy was established (Israel and Judah feature on all standard maps of the Monarchy).
    But, sure, the Canaanites and Amorites were there first.
    The point I'm making is we should listen to the archeologists and researchers not propaganda. Archeologists are discovering ancient Jewish temples and buildings all the time which means the ancient Jewish homeland isn't fiction.
    And history shows quite clearly that Iran, Iraq, Syria, Greece and Rome gradually stole land from Jews and squeezed them out of the region.
    It was a case of the strong devouring the weak.

     
  16. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    Mohammad Ali has the same views I have, believe it or not. Ali didn't believe in forced integration and neither do I. Ali believes it's wrong to force Christianity and democracy on Iraqis and it's also wrong to force Islam on people who maybe don't want forced religion. Forcing your own values on other people is wrong basically.
    Ali believes the 9/11 hijackers were a bunch of nutters but he thinks the KKK are equally as nutty. He's right as well.
    Ali's mother is a baptist Christian and he has close friends who are Jewish and ate Jewish food that corrsponds to Moslem diet too.
    More importantly, Ali was hated in the U.S. for some years because he went against the grain, opposed forced integration and opposed Vietnam.
    I had mixed feeling about Ali sparring with George Bush when he got his award recently and wonder what he would have had to say to Bush in his prime (when he was psychologically sharp enough to stand up to war-mongers and bigots).
    In short, Ali interprets Islam as a religion of peace and tolerance and he gave black people pride in their own heritage and history. ;)


     
  17. FredC

    FredC New Member

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    You're off thread, off track, and off your head. Why don't you buy a bunch of old bibles, a covered wagon, and piss off to Death Valley.
    BTW Can't see any postings from you on the Falklands thread.
     
  18. Dondare

    Dondare New Member

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    The heavyweight champion of the world can have whatever views he wants to, tho' boxing clever doesn't make you an expert on anything else.
    Islam has nothing to do with the heritage and history of black Africans, (unless you count the fact that Arabs were enslaving negros for centuries before Europeans bought in to the slave trade).
     
  19. EoinC

    EoinC New Member

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    I think you may be missing the point, Carrera. You still seem to be contending that people here are saying the Jews have no right to be in Israel. This is not so. All of the views put forward here (that I have read) are saying that they do have a right to be in Israel, they just don't have a right to follow the path promoted by the Zionists in displacing the Palestinians who inhabit the area, be they Muslim, Christian, Jewish or any other faith.
    You are the one who is promoting displacement on the basis of history. You have chosen your own starting point for history in the region and don't want to include the rights of any people before that. You claim that this is just because the Jews won the land "fair and square". You go on to claim that the land was then "stolen" from them. Isn't that just another lot winning it "fair and square"? If Iran was to wipe out Israel, would you consider that to be OK because they won it "fair and square"? I wouldn't, and I doubt if you would.
    Your ramblings show us that you believe the Jews have a right to be there - I agree. Your ramblings show that you don't believe the Palestinians have a right to be there - I disagree. Your selective history does not indicate why the resident Palestinians should be required to leave.
    I believe that it is naive for you to see this as Jew vs. Muslim and to regard any criticism of the Government of Israel as being based in anti-semitism - that is Zionist thought, not Semitic thought. To aid your understanding of the difference between Judaism and Zionism, have a read of this:
    https://lists.portside.org/pipermail/portside/Week-of-Mon-20041115/006827.html
     
  20. davidmc

    davidmc New Member

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    Thats what I've been trying to say for the last month or so. We know the promised land is not, say...Pittsburg (no offense intended to any "Pittsburgians" on the thread) for example. The known world, at that time, was a small place. Thank you for being logical CR.
     
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