White Lightning vs. Purple Extreme



M

Monty

Guest
About a month ago I posted a question to you. I was looking for an
alternative to White Lightning. Someone suggested Purple Extreme. I gave
it a try. I thought you might be intrested in the results.

I used it for over 1,000 and was very happy with it. The chain was quieter
and the bike shifted better. I recently put a new chain on the bike and
thought I would document the difference. For the first 150 miles I used
White Lightning. Then photographed the chain. I then thoroughly cleaned
the chain and used Purple Extreme. At 150 miles I, once again,
photographed the chain. I rode the same road on both tests. (Wisconsin
back roads, generally blacktop or seal coated)

Purple extreme is the clear winner!

See for yourself, Purple Extreme on the top, White lightning on the bottom.
http://nanandmont.com/fm/chain-comp.jpg

Thanks
Monty
 
On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:31:53 GMT, "Monty"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>About a month ago I posted a question to you. I was looking for an
>alternative to White Lightning. Someone suggested Purple Extreme. I gave
>it a try. I thought you might be intrested in the results.
>
>I used it for over 1,000 and was very happy with it. The chain was quieter
>and the bike shifted better. I recently put a new chain on the bike and
>thought I would document the difference. For the first 150 miles I used
>White Lightning. Then photographed the chain. I then thoroughly cleaned
>the chain and used Purple Extreme. At 150 miles I, once again,
>photographed the chain. I rode the same road on both tests. (Wisconsin
>back roads, generally blacktop or seal coated)
>
>Purple extreme is the clear winner!
>
>See for yourself, Purple Extreme on the top, White lightning on the bottom.
>http://nanandmont.com/fm/chain-comp.jpg
>
>Thanks
>Monty
>


Dear Monty,

Are the two pictures of the same side of the same chain? The
stamped markings are quite different.

The lower picture looks considerably dirtier than the upper
one, but external dirt is not usually considered much of an
indicator of chain wear, noise, or shifting performance, is
it?

Carl Fogel
 
M

Monty

Guest
Yes, it is the same sime of the chain (DA10) Some of the links do have
different stampings on them.
I think a dirty chain, with buildup, will cause compant wear.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:31:53 GMT, "Monty"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >About a month ago I posted a question to you. I was looking for an
> >alternative to White Lightning. Someone suggested Purple Extreme. I

gave
> >it a try. I thought you might be intrested in the results.
> >
> >I used it for over 1,000 and was very happy with it. The chain was

quieter
> >and the bike shifted better. I recently put a new chain on the bike and
> >thought I would document the difference. For the first 150 miles I used
> >White Lightning. Then photographed the chain. I then thoroughly cleaned
> >the chain and used Purple Extreme. At 150 miles I, once again,
> >photographed the chain. I rode the same road on both tests. (Wisconsin
> >back roads, generally blacktop or seal coated)
> >
> >Purple extreme is the clear winner!
> >
> >See for yourself, Purple Extreme on the top, White lightning on the

bottom.
> >http://nanandmont.com/fm/chain-comp.jpg
> >
> >Thanks
> >Monty
> >

>
> Dear Monty,
>
> Are the two pictures of the same side of the same chain? The
> stamped markings are quite different.
>
> The lower picture looks considerably dirtier than the upper
> one, but external dirt is not usually considered much of an
> indicator of chain wear, noise, or shifting performance, is
> it?
>
> Carl Fogel
 
H

H. Morgan

Guest
On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:54:10 -0600, [email protected] wrote:

>On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:31:53 GMT, "Monty"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>About a month ago I posted a question to you. I was looking for an
>>alternative to White Lightning. Someone suggested Purple Extreme. I gave
>>it a try. I thought you might be intrested in the results.
>>
>>I used it for over 1,000 and was very happy with it. The chain was quieter
>>and the bike shifted better. I recently put a new chain on the bike and
>>thought I would document the difference. For the first 150 miles I used
>>White Lightning. Then photographed the chain. I then thoroughly cleaned
>>the chain and used Purple Extreme. At 150 miles I, once again,
>>photographed the chain. I rode the same road on both tests. (Wisconsin
>>back roads, generally blacktop or seal coated)
>>
>>Purple extreme is the clear winner!
>>
>>See for yourself, Purple Extreme on the top, White lightning on the bottom.
>>http://nanandmont.com/fm/chain-comp.jpg
>>
>>Thanks
>>Monty
>>

>
>Dear Monty,
>
>Are the two pictures of the same side of the same chain? The
>stamped markings are quite different.
>
>The lower picture looks considerably dirtier than the upper
>one, but external dirt is not usually considered much of an
>indicator of chain wear, noise, or shifting performance, is
>it?
>
>Carl Fogel



A dirty chain's future is a short one.
 
T

TBGibb

Guest
In article <[email protected]>, "Monty"
<[email protected]> writes:

>About a month ago I posted a question to you. I was looking for an
>alternative to White Lightning. Someone suggested Purple Extreme. I gave
>it a try. I thought you might be intrested in the results.
>
>I used it for over 1,000 and was very happy with it. The chain was quieter
>and the bike shifted better. I recently put a new chain on the bike and
>thought I would document the difference. For the first 150 miles I used
>White Lightning. Then photographed the chain. I then thoroughly cleaned
>the chain and used Purple Extreme. At 150 miles I, once again,
>photographed the chain. I rode the same road on both tests. (Wisconsin
>back roads, generally blacktop or seal coated)
>
>Purple extreme is the clear winner!
>
>See for yourself, Purple Extreme on the top, White lightning on the bottom.


Dirt on the outside of the chain does not mean a longer lasting chain. It's
the lubrication and lack of dirt on the inside that counts.

Here's a challenge for you: mark your chain into two halves and lube one half
with "Purple Extreme" and the other half with WL. Measure the halves for
elongation (AKA "stretch") at intervals and report on which lubrication
produces the longest lived chain (the half that gets to 12 1/16 over 24 links
first)

For those that are interested (and didn't see this the first time I posted it)
here is my comparison method of two different chain maintainence methods:

To interject some real data into the chain lubrication debate I devised the
following method for comparing two methods.

1. Take one PC-48 chain, size it for the bike and then "break" it into two
equal sections
2. Join the two sections with second "Power Link."
3. Mark a section by cutting a shallow "+" sign in a rivet with a Dremel and a
cut off wheel so the individual chain sections would always be cleaned by the
same method.
4. Clean one section (called "washed") by thrashing it in paint thinner,
changing the thinner until there is a clean wash. It took 5-6 to do this. I
always used fresh (instead of thinner that was being reused by allowing it to
settle prior to being filtered through a coffee filter) thinner for the last
2-3 washes.
5. Clean the other section (called "unwashed") by throughly wiping it off with
a rag and then brushing it with a tooth brush.
6. Otherwise treat both sections exactly the same oiling both with Quaker State
chain saw bar oil.
7. Measure the chain sections as follows:
a. hang the chain section with a five pound weight on it (a set of
automobile cable chains).
b. measure with an 18 inch ruler that is ruled to 1/32 in the first inch.
Using that long a ruler allowed us to measure between the 1 inch
mark and the 13 inch mark so we could use that first inch and
extrapolate to 1/64.
c. have my wife confirm the measurements (we argued about them several
times).
8. Put the chain back together, oil it, wipe it down to remove excess oil,
replace it on the bike and ride it until the chain needs cleaning again.
9. Repeat until 24 links in one section measures 12 1/16.

Tom Gibb <[email protected]>
 
W

Werehatrack

Guest
On 25 Jul 2004 17:56:14 GMT, [email protected] (TBGibb) wrote:

>Here's a challenge for you: mark your chain into two halves and lube one half
>with "Purple Extreme" and the other half with WL. Measure the halves for
>elongation (AKA "stretch") at intervals and report on which lubrication
>produces the longest lived chain (the half that gets to 12 1/16 over 24 links
>first)


Won't the lubes mix as they transfer via the cogs?

Your greatly-appreciated chain cleaning & lube effects test didn't
have that problem since the same lube was used for both halves.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
 
T

TBGibb

Guest
In article <[email protected]>, Werehatrack
<[email protected]> writes:

>Won't the lubes mix as they transfer via the cogs?
>
>Your greatly-appreciated chain cleaning & lube effects test didn't
>have that problem since the same lube was used for both halves.


Certainly there will be some transfer of lubrication via the cogs, but will the
amounts be significant? I personally don't think so, there would need to be
more an an "innoculation" of the contaminating lubricant. The lube that was
put on the half would be the dominate influence.

I think that one would have to come up with an expensive labratory method to
compare two different chain lubes that would be identical in all respects.
Even in my test there "could" have been some transfer of grit from the
"unwashed" half to the "washed" one, but whatever grit was present on the
"unwashed" half should have caused a lot more wear on the half from which it
came.

Tom Gibb <[email protected]>
 
C

Commuter Cyclist

Guest
On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:13:23 +0000, Werehatrack wrote:

> On 25 Jul 2004 17:56:14 GMT, [email protected] (TBGibb) wrote:
> > ...

> Your greatly-appreciated chain cleaning & lube effects test didn't have
> that problem since the same lube was used for both halves.


Is there a quick way to find this posting? Does someone have the MSGID or
other details to find it? Searching for messages from tbgibb didn't work.

Thanks.
 
J

justen

Guest
> On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:31:53 GMT, "Monty"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>I used it for over 1,000 and was very happy with it. The chain was quieter
>>and the bike shifted better. I recently put a new chain on the bike and
>>thought I would document the difference. For the first 150 miles I used
>>White Lightning. Then photographed the chain. I then thoroughly cleaned
>>the chain and used Purple Extreme. At 150 miles I, once again,
>>photographed the chain. I rode the same road on both tests. (Wisconsin
>>back roads, generally blacktop or seal coated)


When you got the new chain, did you thoroughly clean it before applying
White Lightning? Or did you just apply the White Lightning over the
lube that came on the chain?

justen
 
On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:18:43 -0300, Commuter Cyclist
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:13:23 +0000, Werehatrack wrote:
>
>> On 25 Jul 2004 17:56:14 GMT, [email protected] (TBGibb) wrote:
>> > ...

>> Your greatly-appreciated chain cleaning & lube effects test didn't have
>> that problem since the same lube was used for both halves.

>
>Is there a quick way to find this posting? Does someone have the MSGID or
>other details to find it? Searching for messages from tbgibb didn't work.
>
>Thanks.
>


Dear CommCycle,

Clicking on this gets you into the middle of the thread:

http://tinyurl.com/3uhq4

It's fairly easy to browse once you're in google groups.

Carl Fogel
 
T

TBGibb

Guest
In article <[email protected]>, Commuter Cyclist
<[email protected]> writes:

>Is there a quick way to find this posting? Does someone have the MSGID or
>other details to find it? Searching for messages from tbgibb didn't work.


Here it is:

To interject some real data into the chain lubrication debate I devised the
following method for comparing two methods.

1. Take one PC-48 chain, size it for the bike and then "break" it into two
equal sections
2. Join the two sections with second "Power Link."
3. Mark a section by cutting a shallow "+" sign in a rivet with a Dremel and a
cut off wheel so the individual chain sections would always be cleaned by the
same method.
4. Clean one section (called "washed") by thrashing it in paint thinner,
changing the thinner until there is a clean wash. It took 5-6 to do this. I
always used fresh (instead of thinner that was being reused by allowing it to
settle prior to being filtered through a coffee filter) thinner for the last
2-3 washes.
5. Clean the other section (called "unwashed") by throughly wiping it off with
a rag and then brushing it with a tooth brush.
6. Otherwise treat both sections exactly the same oiling both with Quaker State
chain saw bar oil.
7. Measure the chain sections as follows:
a. hang the chain section with a five pound weight on it (a set of
automobile cable chains).
b. measure with an 18 inch ruler that is ruled to 1/32 in the first inch.
Using that long a ruler allowed us to measure between the 1 inch
mark and the 13 inch mark so we could use that first inch and
extrapolate to 1/64.
c. have my wife confirm the measurements (we argued about them several
times).
8. Put the chain back together, oil it, wipe it down to remove excess oil,
replace it on the bike and ride it until the chain needs cleaning again.
9. Repeat until 24 links in one section measures 12 1/16.

Results:

Date Miles Elongation Elongation Notes
of washed of unwashed
chain chain
07/11/03 0
07/14/03 137.1 0 0 Dusty and
noisy
07/23/03 328.6 1/64 1/64 Dusty and
slightly noisy
08/01/03 607.24 1/64 1/64
08/11/03 819.71 1/64 1/64
09/02/03 1076.67 1/64 1/32
rain
09/19/03 1430.39 1/64 1/32
noisy
10/23/03 1801.17 3/64 1/32

11/07/03 2257.55 3/64 1/32

01/05/04 2739.52 1/16 1/32
Very dirty and noisy


Conclusions:
It isn't worth it to soak a chain out in solvent. I've stopped doing so, but I
will be very careful to measure often.
The presence of my wife Susan (an unbiased observer) in this was essential, I
(she) caught myself (me) seeing more wear in the "unwashed" chain than in the
"washed" one early in the trial.

Comments:
It was not easy to measure the chain to the 1/64 level, we spent some time
getting the light right so we could see the marks and either took the glasses
off (Susan) or used 4X readers (me) and we still had to work at it.
I used a needed fresh cassette at the begining.
The bike was my "beater" bike, a Cannondale M700. I use it for commuting and
errands. Part of the riding was on gravel trails.
The method could easily be used to compare other cleaning methods and other
lubricants.
I was prepared to take SRAM to task for advocating cleaning chains by wiping
them down with some kind of degreaser on the rag (trying to sell extra chains
are you?) HA! or NOT!


Tom Gibb <[email protected]>


Tom Gibb <[email protected]>
 
G

g.daniels

Guest
well, its hot. and gee riders are unhappy or dissastisfied with the
chain oil.Epic is outasight. using wax? wax is for candles and
envelopes not for kids.
Search DIY bike/cable luber at the bottom.
not that i'm unhappy with epic. the first shot is using epic as a
base. butbutbutbutbut greater things are over the horizon. for
example, epic(and the rest) evaps in the same heat's drivin yawl
batts. so, if one can find the right synthetic, groove on the pourable
85-240w, then firgure out what they mean by that in real time
hehehehe, add linseed(or? diaper powder?)maybe even better RAW
linseed, i assume boiling removes aromatics, for deoderizing
THEN, after the firsat weekly cleaning and one commute:
ONE CAN POUR ON MORE CHAIN LUBE!! rinsing the dirt out, adding lube
for commute 2,3,4 even- NBS!!!
AHHHHHHHHHHH!!
and not go to the poor house while bay shore buys another house in
tuscany.

the 3 in 1 guys are talkin bout semen?
or what?
 

Weisse Luft

New Member
May 28, 2004
1,306
0
0
2700 miles on a chain? Sounds like the lubricant isn't too good for the chain. I typically get 8000 miles out of my Dura Ace chains before they get 1/8" "stretch" over the ENTIRE length, my criteria for replacement.

I use a Quicklink (against recommendations of Shimano, of course) to allow easy removal. I clean in an $40 ultrasonic cleaner with paint thinner, changing the solvent twice. Final rinse is with acetone for quick dry.

I lube with White Lightning, letting it dry overnight. Chain cleanings are every 500 miles, give or take a few. If the rollers are rattling, I brush the chain with a large nylon brush until clean, then reapply WL. This gets the majority of the road grit off but the fresh WL looks dark when it dissolves the inside crud.

Post mortems of worn chain indicates no perceptable wear of the pins. Only the side plates and rollers are worn. The pins have some kind of carbide/nitride/chromium plating which resists wear.

The benefit of my process is a chain that is never too "gunky" to touch and a good year's worth of riding.
 

Weisse Luft

New Member
May 28, 2004
1,306
0
0
g.daniels said:
where does lufte live? what kind of road dirt? sand?
Oh yes, there is sand on the roads where I ride. There is also silt and clay. In the cleaning solvent sediment, I can definitely feel the grit that doesn't get attracted to the neoydium magnets (salvaged from old hard drives). Being a chemistry buff, I know a bit on elemental analysis. Since I no longer have access to a XRD, the only elemental analysis I can do is wet chemistry on the sediment.

About 22% by mass of the sediment off my chain washings is magnetic ferrous. This is a very fine powder that takes several days to accumulate on the side of the container where the magnet is taped to the outside. I decant the rest of the sludge and wash with 1N NaOH. The washings are collected and allowed to evaporate. From the total mass addition of NaOH and its eventual conversion to Na2CO3*10H20, estimated mass of aluminum is 8%.

The remainaing sediment is then treated with HCl to dissolve any non-magnetic metals like Ti (Dura Ace cogs) and non-magnetic ferrous residue. It also dissolves mineral carbonates. This is evaporated mass is a whopping 38% of the total.

The rest (32%) is probably silica, silicates and other extraneous lubricant that escaped the initial solvent washings. Since I used non-polar solvent (paint thinner), very little metal is lost in the washings. There is also some losses due to carbonate dissociation but I assume this to regain upon drying and exposure to atmospheric CO2.

Keep in mind, it took several chains to accumulate enough sediment to run this test and it was only done for more than subjective reasons.
 
J

j morelstein

Guest
guys, get a life...
"justen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> > On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:31:53 GMT, "Monty"
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>I used it for over 1,000 and was very happy with it. The chain was

quieter
> >>and the bike shifted better. I recently put a new chain on the bike and
> >>thought I would document the difference. For the first 150 miles I used
> >>White Lightning. Then photographed the chain. I then thoroughly

cleaned
> >>the chain and used Purple Extreme. At 150 miles I, once again,
> >>photographed the chain. I rode the same road on both tests. (Wisconsin
> >>back roads, generally blacktop or seal coated)

>
> When you got the new chain, did you thoroughly clean it before applying
> White Lightning? Or did you just apply the White Lightning over the
> lube that came on the chain?
>
> justen
 

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