Whitehorse Rd., Melbourne - New Tram Stops... :(

Discussion in 'Australia and New Zealand' started by Hippy, May 12, 2003.

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  1. Hippy

    Hippy Guest

    If anyone has ridden along Whitehorse Rd. (Maroondah Hwy) between Balwyn and Box Hill you might have
    noticed the new trams stops that have been put in?

    What's the go?! These tram stops are sat on top of large concrete slabs, apparently designed to form
    a raised platform so our oldies don't have to step up so far when boarding. The problem is, these
    foot-high platforms jut right out into the road and leave maybe 30cm between the edge and the tram
    track. Mmm bike tyres and tram tracks - what a fun combination!

    I just waiting to see how long it takes before I'm squished between a tram or car and the platform.
    Because of their height, it's almost impossible for me to bunnyhop over it, especially on a road
    bike at speed!

    It's a little hairy doing 50kph+ down the hill and then being forced to move towards the centre of
    the road, ie. towards cars and then you are given a foot of road between the platform and the tram
    track! :-(

    Just wondering if anyone else had any opinions on the design of these tram stops?

    hippy
     
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  2. rek

    rek New Member

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    It's as if they thought, "traffic seems to flow a little too well on Whitehorse Rd .. what could we do to jam up the works?" It's going to turn out to be a traffic nightmare for motorists and cyclists alike.

    I've never seen anything like it -- nor can I think of any reason why they'd design a tram stop this way.

    An alternative route is to use Mont Albert Road, which runs parallel to Whitehorse Rd a hundred or so metres south. Wide lane, less traffic, fewer parked cars, no tram tracks, and looks nicer (trees etc.)
     
  3. Pc

    Pc Guest

    On Mon, 12 May 2003 12:06:09 GMT, "hippy" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >If anyone has ridden along Whitehorse Rd. (Maroondah Hwy) between Balwyn and Box Hill you might
    >have noticed the new trams stops that have been put in?

    >What's the go?! These tram stops are sat on top of large concrete slabs, apparently designed to
    >form a raised platform so our oldies don't have to step up so far when boarding. The problem is,
    >these foot-high platforms jut right out into the road and leave maybe 30cm between the edge and the
    >tram track.

    Step so far? Almost all trams on the 109 are low floor Citadis trams, there's no step at all from
    those stops.. Incidentally, that's the point..

    >Mmm bike tyres and tram tracks - what a fun combination!
    >
    >I just waiting to see how long it takes before I'm squished between a tram or car and the platform.

    Look a little closer, the bike lane turns (or will turn, once they finish em) into a bypass
    path around the back of the tram stop.. All other traffic has to merge right (note the form one
    lane sign)..

    Have the bypasses been finished yet?

    PC
     
  4. "rek" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > It's as if they thought, "traffic seems to flow a little too well on Whitehorse Rd .. what could
    > we do to jam up the works?" It's going to turn out to be a traffic nightmare for motorists and
    > cyclists alike.

    Agreed
    >
    > I've never seen anything like it -- nor can I think of any reason why they'd design a tram stop
    > this way.

    A piece of Commonwealth legislation, the Disability Discrimination Act.

    > An alternative route is to use Mont Albert Road, which runs parallel to Whitehorse Rd a hundred or
    > so metres south. Wide lane, less traffic,

    Not for long, once the motorists work that out as well.

    Even with the alleged bicycle bypass lanes I think this type of tram stop will be a real hazard for
    any cyclist riding along Whitehorse Rd. Pedestrians will start screaming once we get a few accidents
    from kids who walk out in front of cyclists while leaving the tram stop. Cyclists unfamiliar with
    the road will get caught trying to follow the traffic to the right into the tram tracks, and take
    tumbles. The idea sucks and is straight out discrimination against cyclists (anbd we don't have any
    of that, do we?)

    Cheers Peter
     
  5. Hippy

    Hippy Guest

    "PC" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > >I just waiting to see how long it takes before I'm squished between a tram or car and the
    > >platform.
    >
    > Look a little closer, the bike lane turns (or will turn, once they finish em) into a bypass
    > path around the back of the tram stop.. All other traffic has to merge right (note the form one
    > lane sign)..
    >
    > Have the bypasses been finished yet?

    Ahh, this might be ok then. I did not notice any bypass lanes. They might still be under
    construction... In the mean time, it's still squishy.

    hip
     
  6. Pc

    Pc Guest

    On Mon, 12 May 2003 22:40:33 GMT, "hippy" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >> >I just waiting to see how long it takes before I'm squished between a tram or car and the
    >> >platform.
    >>
    >> Look a little closer, the bike lane turns (or will turn, once they finish em) into a bypass path
    >> around the back of the tram stop.. All other traffic has to merge right (note the form one lane
    >> sign)..
    >>
    >> Have the bypasses been finished yet?
    >
    >Ahh, this might be ok then. I did not notice any bypass lanes. They might still be under
    >construction... In the mean time, it's still squishy.

    http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/vrne/vrninte.nsf/AllDocs/6C48BAC33FCF324CCA256CEE0011C139?OpenDocume-
    nt&Area=[Online+Information+&+Services] or http://tinyurl.com/blt3

    There's an artists impression there, plus the following text..

    Kerb Access tram stops Like Superstops, Kerb Access stops are designed to provide a new level of
    accessibility for commuters of route 109. The Kerb Access tram stop involves extending a raised
    section of footpath area out to meet the tram, allowing passengers to board and alight from the tram
    without having to negotiate steps. The design will also allow passengers to move directly from the
    footpath area onto the tram without having to cross a lane of traffic.

    Motor traffic is required to merge into one lane prior to the stop and will share the tram track
    area with trams in the vicinity of the stop.

    Kerb Access stop locations Kerb Access stops along Whitehorse Road will be located: between Hotham
    Street and Hood Street between Wellesley Street and Inglisby Road

    Kerb Access stop construction Kerb Access stops consist of a platform that is 20 metres in length
    and 3.3 metres wide from the kerb. Construction of the two Kerb Access tram stops, is expected to
    commence in late March 2003 and will take up to six weeks. During the tram stop construction period,
    traffic restrictions and some lane closures will be in place on Whitehorse Road, between Union Road
    and Elgar Road.

    Tram tracks at the tram stop locations will be relocated by approximately 700mm to allow for
    adequate traffic lane widths. This will provide a safe width for vehicles to pass through the tram
    stop area.

    What are the features of the Kerb Access stop? A dedicated bicycle path to enhance the safety for
    cyclists travelling through the Kerb Access stop Shelters to provide protection for passengers
    waiting to board Tactile tiles to assist the visually impaired in locating the correct position on
    the platform from which to board Information devices to assist the visually impaired and other
    commuters Additional street lighting in the vicinity of the stops Motorists are required to merge
    into the right lane to pass through the tram stop Kerb extensions and road markings will direct
    motorists to move into the right lane

    What are the benefits of the Kerb Access stop? A safe environment for passengers boarding and
    disembarking from trams Tram users will not have to negotiate steps when boarding low floor trams
    Travel time savings for trams users through quicker and easier passenger boarding times

    What happens when the tram approaches the platform? As the tram approaches the tram stop platform,
    motorists will wait behind the tram whilst commuters board and alight directly from the platform.
     
  7. Peter/Hippy/All, Have any of these yet been completed? Pedestrian and tram issues aside, I would be
    interested to see how well they work at the sidestreets - it looks like it might be harder for
    motorists leaving or entering a sidestreet to see the cyclists on the path? It looks like the
    cyclist has right of way (same as if they were on the road proper) but I can imagine right-turning
    cars just checking for oncoming cars and trams on the road and then turning right into the path of a
    cyclist... what do you think? Curious to hear others' experiences, Gemm

    > Even with the alleged bicycle bypass lanes I think this type of tram stop will be a real hazard
    > for any cyclist riding along Whitehorse Rd. Pedestrians will start screaming once we get a few
    > accidents from kids who walk out in front of cyclists while leaving the tram stop. Cyclists
    > unfamiliar with the road will get caught trying to follow the traffic to
    the
    > right into the tram tracks, and take tumbles. The idea sucks and is
    straight
    > out discrimination against cyclists (anbd we don't have any of that, do
    we?)
    >
    > Cheers Peter
     
  8. Jeremy Lunn

    Jeremy Lunn Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Peter Signorini wrote:
    >> I've never seen anything like it -- nor can I think of any reason why they'd design a tram stop
    >> this way.
    >
    > A piece of Commonwealth legislation, the Disability Discrimination Act.

    That and it's generally a lot safer to board a tram without having to cross a lane of motorists (who
    often fail to stop when they're supposed to).

    > will be a real hazard for any cyclist riding along Whitehorse Rd. Pedestrians will start
    > screaming once we get a few accidents from kids who walk out in front of cyclists while leaving
    > the tram stop.

    Same thing happens with kids and cars at conventional stops, only the consequences are far greater.

    > Cyclists unfamiliar with the road will get caught trying to follow the traffic to the right into
    > the tram tracks, and take tumbles.

    If cyclist lanes were painted on the road then lane markings could be used to direct cyclists to go
    behind the stops.

    --
    Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/ http://www.jabber.org/ - the next
    generation of Instant Messaging.
     
  9. Hippy

    Hippy Guest

    "Gemma Kernich" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Peter/Hippy/All, Have any of these yet been completed? Pedestrian and tram issues
    aside, I
    > would be interested to see how well they work at the sidestreets - it
    looks
    > like it might be harder for motorists leaving or entering a sidestreet
    to
    > see the cyclists on the path? It looks like the cyclist has right of
    way
    > (same as if they were on the road proper) but I can imagine
    right-turning
    > cars just checking for oncoming cars and trams on the road and then
    turning
    > right into the path of a cyclist... what do you think? Curious to hear others' experiences,

    Well, I had a closer look this morning and there are indeed bike paths around the platform. They
    have a fair bit of work to go though before they will be useable. I still don't like the idea of
    crossing a side street, ducking behind a shelter and then coming back out into the main flow of
    traffic - not the best for maintaining visibility with cars. Meh, I'll get over it, it's not likely
    to change because I have a sook.

    hip
     
  10. Rman

    Rman Guest

    "hippy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Gemma Kernich" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > Peter/Hippy/All, Have any of these yet been completed? Pedestrian and tram issues
    > aside, I
    > > would be interested to see how well they work at the sidestreets - it
    > looks
    > > like it might be harder for motorists leaving or entering a sidestreet
    > to
    > > see the cyclists on the path? It looks like the cyclist has right of
    > way
    > > (same as if they were on the road proper) but I can imagine
    > right-turning
    > > cars just checking for oncoming cars and trams on the road and then
    > turning
    > > right into the path of a cyclist... what do you think? Curious to hear others' experiences,
    >
    > Well, I had a closer look this morning and there are indeed bike paths around the platform. They
    > have a fair bit of work to go though before they will be useable. I still don't like the idea of
    > crossing a side street, ducking behind a shelter and then coming back out into the main flow of
    > traffic - not the best for maintaining visibility with cars. Meh, I'll get over it, it's not
    > likely to change because I have a sook.
    >

    I guess your at an advantage, being a regular commuter, and having prior knowledge will be able to
    adjust your riding in anticipation of a "hot-spot". I always find it the toughest when commuting
    unfamiliar routes and coming across such spots, and I'm going too fast or day-dreaming. You have
    that thought "shit, I wasn't paying attention here and if there was a driver not paying attention
    too..........."

    or something like that..............
     
  11. Ted Linnell

    Ted Linnell Guest

    "hippy" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >If anyone has ridden along Whitehorse Rd. (Maroondah Hwy) between Balwyn and Box Hill you might
    >have noticed the new trams stops that have been put in?
    >
    Havn't ridden along there, but as I came home along there on the tram last night I was thinking that
    it could be a bit hairy on a bike, being forced out on to the tram tracks. And only the one lane for
    trams, cars and bikes.

    Ted.
    ==============================================================
    | Ted Linnell <[email protected]> |
    | |
    | Nunawading, Victoria , Australia |
    ==============================================================
     
  12. Joda

    Joda Guest

    I used to go to Melbourne once in a month, and I have to admit, I've nearly squished a few
    commuters....just not used to it. They just jump in road! scares the shit out of me.

    I've learned to negotiate Melbourne and avoid tram routes especially during peak hours.

    "Jeremy Lunn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, Peter Signorini wrote:
    > >> I've never seen anything like it -- nor can I think of any reason why they'd design a tram stop
    > >> this way.
    > >
    > > A piece of Commonwealth legislation, the Disability Discrimination Act.
    >
    > That and it's generally a lot safer to board a tram without having to cross a lane of motorists
    > (who often fail to stop when they're supposed to).
    >
    > > will be a real hazard for any cyclist riding along Whitehorse Rd. Pedestrians will start
    > > screaming once we get a few accidents from kids
    who
    > > walk out in front of cyclists while leaving the tram stop.
    >
    > Same thing happens with kids and cars at conventional stops, only the consequences are far
    > greater.
    >
    > > Cyclists unfamiliar with the road will get caught trying to follow the traffic to the right into
    > > the tram tracks, and take tumbles.
    >
    > If cyclist lanes were painted on the road then lane markings could be used to direct cyclists to
    > go behind the stops.
    >
    > --
    > Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/ http://www.jabber.org/ - the
    > next generation of Instant Messaging.
     
  13. Pc

    Pc Guest

    On Wed, 14 May 2003 12:15:58 GMT, "JoDa" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I used to go to Melbourne once in a month, and I have to admit, I've nearly squished a few
    >commuters....just not used to it. They just jump in road! scares the shit out of me.

    Yes, they walk in front because they have right of way over you..

    >I've learned to negotiate Melbourne and avoid tram routes especially during peak hours.

    Smart move..

    PC
     
  14. Shabby

    Shabby New Member

    Joined:
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    The reason that all the cars stop behind the tram when it's stopping is becuase that's the law. Otherwise you'd be walking of a tram into traffic. Look out for the hook turns as well, or you might find drivers who "just turn right in front of you" as you try to run a yellow light in the city.
     
  15. "Jeremy Lunn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, Peter Signorini wrote:

    > > Pedestrians will start screaming once we get a few accidents from kids
    who
    > > walk out in front of cyclists while leaving the tram stop.
    >
    > Same thing happens with kids and cars at conventional stops, only the consequences are far
    > greater.

    Generally at convential stops people walk from the tram to the footpath with legal protection (cars
    must stop) and kids are unlikely to muck about on the road. At these 'kerbside stops' people waiting
    for a tram (especially kids) will be less likely to regard the bike path behind the tram shelter as
    a notable hazard, and walk straight across in front of cyclists who have, I assume, a legal right of
    way here. Not a particularly safe road layoutfor cyclists or pedestrians.

    > If cyclist lanes were painted on the road then lane markings could be used to direct cyclists to
    > go behind the stops.

    Oh and of course Vicroads will go right ahead and mark in the bike lanes. I think not. These roads
    are for cars after all. :-{

    And when the traffic stops for the tram what's to stop motorcyclists using the bik path shortcut?
    (They will!)

    Cheers Peter
    - in my cynical mode
     
  16. Jeremy Lunn

    Jeremy Lunn Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Peter Signorini wrote:
    > Generally at convential stops people walk from the tram to the footpath with legal protection
    > (cars must stop) and kids are unlikely to muck about on the road. At these 'kerbside stops' people
    > waiting for a tram (especially kids)

    There are still problems when motorists fail to stop and people do get seriously injured. At least
    it does seem that these stops are segregated from the cycle lane/bypass, so waiting passengers won't
    cause a hazard, apart from when they arrive.

    > Oh and of course Vicroads will go right ahead and mark in the bike lanes. I think not. These roads
    > are for cars after all. :-{

    Maybe the local council could?

    > And when the traffic stops for the tram what's to stop motorcyclists using the bik path shortcut?
    > (They will!)

    Legislation and enforcement? Tram drivers and conductions (if/when they are returned) could
    report them.

    --
    Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/ http://www.jabber.org/ - the next
    generation of Instant Messaging.
     
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