"Whites Only"?

psycholist said:

I have some black friends in Clemson and Anderson who are nervous
about riding IN A CAR through the rural areas of many South Carolina
counties. To be perfectly honest, I would understand completely if
you didn't feel comfortable riding on the roads down here where I
live. There are plenty of really sweet folks. Unfortunately, there
are also still plenty of Bubbas with rebel flags, too.

Since living in the South I've found the Southern stereotypes are no different
from their socio-economic counterparts elsewhere. In CA people say the same
things about the desert and Inland Empire. I know black people who will not
drive through the desert. Their concerns are not unfounded, either. Areas like
San Bernadino have extremely high crime rates, and plenty of miscreants cruising
around looking for trouble. In fact there may be more rednecks in CA than all
of the South.

Matt O.

Cheto said:

But isn't it a fact that Blacks are more likely to be the victims of
crimes perpetrated by other Blacks than by Whites? I think a solo
Black rider would be safer riding alone in a primarily White area
than a primarily Black area.

You might rephrase that to say safer in a prosperous area than a poor one.

Matt O.

Paul Turner said:

Claire Petersky

Quoted message said:

As long as I'm in the process of generalizing -- a friend of mine
has this theory about riding in rural areas of Washington State.
He believes that inareas where the predominate economic
activity is logging, motorists treat cyclists badly. Where the
predominate economic activity is agriculture, motorists do
not treat cyclists badly. Does this theory bear out in your
experience? If so, why do you think it is?

This is just speculation on my part, but then so is most everything on
this thread. I grew up in a farming area and I recall often being
stuck behind a tractor or other piece of farm equipment for a few
minutes. Everyone recognized the use of the roads to move such
equipment from place to place as legitimate and necessary, so they
didn't get upset if it added a couple of minutes to their trip. Maybe
that attitude carries over to being patient about having to slow down
briefly before finding a safe place to pass a bicycle.

I have found this to be true around here. While the farms are disappearing,
there are still plenty of tractors and hay trucks creeping along country roads.
People who have lived here awhile are used to that. Therefore they're more apt
to treat cyclists well too, and this has been my experience.

However, I once had a "discussion" with a redneck teenager who harassed several
riders on a club ride. I explained the law to him, about how it's his
responsibility to wait for a safe place to pass and then do so safely, just as
with any other slow moving vehicle -- tractor, construction equipment, etc. Of
course he didn't care, responding with "Well, maybe if you was doin' sumthin'
worthwhile..."

Matt O.

"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Of the readers who are not white males, let me ask: How frequent are
minor harrassments? How frequent are harassments that are really
troubling?

Incredibly rare, and rarer than they used to be. I've had my share of

incidents

Quoted message said:

too, but in the distant past. I've seen and heard of more road rage

driver to

Quoted message said:

driver than driver to cyclist.

This doesn't mean people don't feel vulnerable as cyclists though. In

fact this

Quoted message said:

is one of the biggest barriers to people taking up cycling -- they're

scared to

Quoted message said:

death of riding in traffic. Many people join cycling clubs because

they're

Quoted message said:

afraid to ride alone.

I've never really had a problem in traffic. I ride in town and other than
having a hard time crossing busy divided 4 lanes, no biggie. My problems
have been on relatively low traffic rural highways. It's easy for somebody
to act aggressively toward a cyclist when there are no witnesses....

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

: > Where are all the black riders? What is it about our sport that makes

it

Quoted message said:

: > so unappealing to an entire race of people?
: >
: > Anybody have any theories?
: >
:
: Could be they just aren't interested,
:
: But look at the ratio of white riders according to the total white
: population, then look at the ratio of black riders according to the

total

Quoted message said:

: black population. There may not be much difference,

Yeah, when people find out that I ride (and these are white people by and
large), they are astonished because none of them have ridden a bike since
they were 12 years old! They are just amazed that an adult would ride a
bike. In fact, they tend to make fun of it at first with a kind of "Aren't
you through with childish things by now?" attitude.

Pat in TX

I have an 18 mile commute(each way) that I do 3x/wk in the spring and
summer. When people see me arrive at work on my bike and ask where I live
they're shocked than anybody would do that voluntarily. Then again, the only
people in my area riding bikes are fitness riders on the Rails to Trails and
DUI riders.

Pat said:

: Funny you should mention that. In late Novemeber of 2004 my front
: wheel
got
: caught in some railroad tracks and I went down -- while moving at
: about 12-13 mph. Tumbled over a time, tore my jacket and brand new
: tights, and moved my left shifter out of position (I could not
: reposition it by hand
and
: had to ride back to my car without use of it). I was sore for a
: week, but
I
: did my first century the following weekend.

Jeez, I read too fast! I thought you wrote that your "left shoulder"
was out of position. Maybe I just have shoulders on my mind lately.
I remember your accident now. How much did it cost to get that
shifter repaired?

Free. I just took it to the LBS and they had it back in place within
minutes. Plus they adjusted the brakes and lubed the chain.

mbarbee1 said:

Seems like more black people are riding here in the DC area than three
years ago when I first started riding. Of course, people have always
used them for commuting inside the city. But I've even seen a few
black guys on the trail outside the city this winter. And during the
summers I have seen some black guys riding what seemed to be
expensive road bikes and who were in very good roadbike riding shape.
Actually I wonder if there is a club out towards MD that has a
significant percentage of black members. I ride with a regional
recreational club, and yes, we are a rare sight in this club, but I
know I'm not the only and probably far from the first black person to
ride with them.

When I was in college I competed on the ski team. On every trip, some of the
group had a pool going for the first person to see a black skier. I don't think
it was mean spirited as much as a comment on how few black skiers there were.
We found this amusing, and a little sad. Maybe our way of expressing it was
inappropriate, but that's 20 year olds for you. We could go a whole weekend at
Mammoth without seeing a single black skier, out of 15-20,000 skiers. Of
course, 20 years later, there are black skiers everywhere, every weekend at
Mammoth.

FWIW, I was a conscientious objector to this little game.

We were all introduced to certain activities as kids, which we continue into
adulthood. Where I grew up, we all rode bikes everywhere, surfed, swam, sailed,
played volleyball, and other beachy stuff. Tennis was big too in the 70s. Kids
were into the "big three" American sports, but not so much. OTOH, where my
cousins grew up on a military base, football, basketball, and weightlifting were
the thing. They didn't need bikes for transportation, because everything was
right there. 25 years later, I still ride a bike and sail, and my cousin still
plays basketball and lifts weights.

Compared to 20 years ago, kids are exposed to far more on a hundred channels of
TV, and more again when they go off to college or whatever. So there's a lot
more cross-pollination going on. Pretty soon everyone will be doing whatever
makes them happiest, and that's just great.

Matt O.

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 16:26:53 GMT, RonSonic <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Mark Hickey said:

Roger Zoul said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

> Is there a chance that black folks feel too vulnerable out on the road
> alone? FWIW, I once lived in an area of the country where that might
> have been reasonable. (That's one of the reasons I left.)

I have to admit that these kinds of thoughts always creep into my head on my
solo rides. I just ignore them and keep going.

Good for you... I once lived in an Asian country where (for various
reasons) there were spikes of anti-Western sentiments. I too had to
consider the possibility that someone might feel it prudent to reduce
the Western population in that country by one with a twitch of the
steering wheel, but didn't let that stop me either.

The way I look at it, if prejudice keeps you from doing what you want
to do, the weenies win, and we can't have that! Sadly, we live in a
world where we can legislate equality (which is a good thing), but we
can't legislate the attitude of the individual. Hopefully those who
are truly warped will die off and not pass along the behaviors to
their offspring.

Last year in St Petersburg, Fla, the KKK held a rally. The turn out of Klansmen,
NeoNaz, fellow travellers, sympathizers and immediate family was five (5).
That's right, the Klan held a rally and got five people to show up. There were
about 40 newsmen and 200 some counter-protesters. Even that was a historically
low turnout since the Klan isn't even worth protesting anymore.

Evil really hates being yawned at.

Ron

I believe it. Interesting though, recently i was watching a PBS show
about Malcolm X, who grew up in Michigan. I was surprised when they
said that (at the time,anyways) Michigan had an even higher Klan
membership than any state in the Deep south. I don't know if that
statistic remained the same in the years after the 1930s.

Roger Zoul said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Home of the $695 ti frame

That's a very good point. Letting social pressure dictate your leisure
activities is counterproductive. This isn't the third reich! The truth
is you're much more likely to have a stupid crash on the railroad
tracks or slip on a slick painted line than get mowed down by some
racist idiot. We don't let the possiblity of falling and hurting
ourselves stop us from cycling and that's much more likely.

Funny you should mention that. In late Novemeber of 2004 my front wheel got
caught in some railroad tracks and I went down -- while moving at about
12-13 mph. Tumbled over a time, tore my jacket and brand new tights, and
moved my left shifter out of position (I could not reposition it by hand and
had to ride back to my car without use of it). I was sore for a week, but I
did my first century the following weekend.

l
I've fallen on tracks a couple of times in the past 2 years. Last July
the same thing happened to me, but I was going pretty slow because
they were really old bumpy railroad tracks. I was worried that the
wheel had gotten [censored] since we were pretty much out in the middle of
nowhere, but the wheel was okay; and I had just gotten new shorts!
NOthing was torn or damaged and I went on to do a nice long ride, but
I was pretty sore the next day and I had the hugest bruise on my right
hip. It was just so STUPID.

Pat said:

: > Where are all the black riders? What is it about our sport that makes it
: > so unappealing to an entire race of people?
: >
: > Anybody have any theories?
: >
:
: Could be they just aren't interested,
:
: But look at the ratio of white riders according to the total white
: population, then look at the ratio of black riders according to the total
: black population. There may not be much difference,

Yeah, when people find out that I ride (and these are white people by and
large), they are astonished because none of them have ridden a bike since
they were 12 years old! They are just amazed that an adult would ride a
bike. In fact, they tend to make fun of it at first with a kind of "Aren't
you through with childish things by now?" attitude.

Well that's not a black or white thing! I know people whose parents
wonder why any adult would ride a bike, etc, and I get the sort of
quizzical attitude from my family. I get the feeling it's
trans-racial.THey just DON'T UNDERSTAND....

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 16:26:53 GMT, RonSonic <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Mark Hickey said:

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote:

>[email hidden] wrote:

>> Is there a chance that black folks feel too vulnerable out on the road
>> alone? FWIW, I once lived in an area of the country where that might
>> have been reasonable. (That's one of the reasons I left.)
>
>I have to admit that these kinds of thoughts always creep into my head on my
>solo rides. I just ignore them and keep going.

Good for you... I once lived in an Asian country where (for various
reasons) there were spikes of anti-Western sentiments. I too had to
consider the possibility that someone might feel it prudent to reduce
the Western population in that country by one with a twitch of the
steering wheel, but didn't let that stop me either.

The way I look at it, if prejudice keeps you from doing what you want
to do, the weenies win, and we can't have that! Sadly, we live in a
world where we can legislate equality (which is a good thing), but we
can't legislate the attitude of the individual. Hopefully those who
are truly warped will die off and not pass along the behaviors to
their offspring.

Last year in St Petersburg, Fla, the KKK held a rally. The turn out of Klansmen,
NeoNaz, fellow travellers, sympathizers and immediate family was five (5).
That's right, the Klan held a rally and got five people to show up. There were
about 40 newsmen and 200 some counter-protesters. Even that was a historically
low turnout since the Klan isn't even worth protesting anymore.

Evil really hates being yawned at.

Ron

I believe it. Interesting though, recently i was watching a PBS show
about Malcolm X, who grew up in Michigan. I was surprised when they
said that (at the time,anyways) Michigan had an even higher Klan
membership than any state in the Deep south. I don't know if that
statistic remained the same in the years after the 1930s.

Back in the thirties the Klan could get 50-60,000 together for a march on DC.
And they sure weren't all from the south.

I really don't know the racial history of the south on a personal level having
lived in more northern locations until the mid 80s. But I do know that white
southerners do not on average have any greater racial animosity than anyone
else. Perhaps it's the larger black populations here, but there is a general
sense that we may as well get along and personal opinions are secondary.

In any case it is a better world we're living in these days and a better one
ahead. Certainly couldn't be a hell of a lot worse than what created the KKK and
the Nation of Islam.

Ron

"Gooserider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I suppose it all depends on what kind of urban black neighborhood you

mean.

Quoted message said:

If you mean a gentrified area with middle class "buppies" (black urban
professionals) then I'd say you're on the right track. If you mean poor
inner city projects, I would worry about your safety.

I mean black neighborhoods in the greater Seattle area. These aren't
horrible ghettos, but they aren't gentrified, either.

For my job I finance low income housing. I find that I will learn more about
a project or a neighborhood by riding through it than I will either walking
around or driving through, or at least, learn different things about it.

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
Home of the meditative cyclist:
http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm
Personal page: http://www.geocities.com/cpetersky/
See the books I've set free at:
http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

"RonSonic" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 12:52:29 -0800, "Claire Petersky"

<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

FWIW, as a white woman, I feel safer riding in urban black neighborhoods
than I do on many rural roads. Young black men apparently find very

little

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

percentage in harrassing me for the sake of harrassing me; somehow in the
woods a young white guy in monster truck will think it's fun to run me

off

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the road.

Has the latter actually happened?

I'm both fierce about keeping my lane position, and also seem to need less
space to be comfortable between me and the motor vehicle than a lot of other
cyclists, so, I'm pretty hard to run off the road. I've had people come
pretty close, though.

I did have a motorist nudge me, where the bumper was put right up against my
back tire, and push the bike, in what -- December? I found this terrifying.
This happened in suburbia, as it turns out, by a black woman in a compact
car with Maine licence plates. I don't know what stereotype to draw on for
that one.

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
Home of the meditative cyclist:
http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm
Personal page: http://www.geocities.com/cpetersky/
See the books I've set free at:
http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

Sat, 05 Mar 2005 01:48:44 GMT,
<[email hidden]>, "Gooserider"
<[email hidden]> wrote, in part:

Quoted message said:

Basketball is the favorite
sport of black people by a large margin. Its popularity is no doubt due to
the fact that it is very inexpensive to play, and regardless of your
hypersensitivity, a disproportionately large number of black people are
economically disadvantaged.

In other places, like Africa and South America, soccer is the game but
there are also professional teams with lots of exposure. Maybe that's
why Ultimate Frisbee isn't more popular among the poor. Flying discs
are easier to shoplift than soccer balls. Vancouver has a small black
population but so maybe that's why I've never seen any blacks playing
it or disc golf. Perhaps those games are just too assinine

Most school yards have hoops and there are several ball hockey "rinks"
around town though there are far more soccer pitches.

I have a friend who is a self-confessed "gear freak". His attraction
to a sport or hobby is directly proportional to the amount of "must
have" stuff hyped in the speciality magazines.

Hockey over skiing, baseball and tennis over basket ball. He went
crazy with photography before the advent of digital cameras. He loved
technical rock climbing and ice climbing but scoffed at free climbing.
Now he's started playing golf though he's learned to minimise his load
for the marathon sessions. (He played 81 holes in one day, on foot,
carrying his own bag, to establish a course record.) He'd only been at
it for two years. I'd imagine he has gone through a few carts and sets
of clubs by now. He's never had a wife. He's married to his current
obsessions.

I'm too short to play golf. I can't reach the ball washers.
--
zk

Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:12:16 -0800, <[email hidden]>,

Claire Petersky said:

I did have a motorist nudge me, where the bumper was put right up against my
back tire, and push the bike, in what -- December? I found this terrifying.
This happened in suburbia, as it turns out, by a black woman in a compact
car with Maine licence plates. I don't know what stereotype to draw on for
that one.

The idiotic homicidal type that should be shot on sight.
--
zk

: > I remember your accident now. How much did it cost to get that
: > shifter repaired?
:
: Free. I just took it to the LBS and they had it back in place within
: minutes. Plus they adjusted the brakes and lubed the chain.
:
:
Well, I hope you remember how they did it so that you won't be walking the
next time that happens.

Pat

It is more an issue of socioeconomic's than race. I know runners &
cyclists of all races. However I have always lived in nice
middle/upper class neighborhoods. People who live in working class
neighborhoods who are adults generally don't exercise other than
perhaps lifting weights, cardio is non-existent.

People riding on bikes/running wearing spandex etc it can be safely
assumed that their job does not involve manual labor but most likely
sitting at a desk. I have had jobs when I was younger that involved
manual labor and I was too tired to exercise.

I know anyone can find anecdotal evidence to the contrary but the
facts are what they are.

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 05:00:41 -0500, [email hidden] (Chris Zacho

The Wheelman') said:

I have been riding for over 30 years now. I've been the member of many
clubs, large and small, on both coasts and in the middle. I've been to
and done many organized rides (short, long and "are you nuts?"😉 and bike
rallies boasting attendances ranging from the hundreds to the thousands.

Yet at any one of these organizations or events, I could count the total
number of "Afro-American" riders with the fingers of one hand. The
portion of South Carolina where I live now, according to the latest
census, has a population that is about 60% black. Yet the local club,
which has nearly 100 members, to my knowledge has only one black
cyclist. Hardly an accurate representation of the population at large.

In fact, I'll be willing to bet, that out of all the posters on this
board, only one, maybe two, max. are black. If indeed anybody here is.
Where are all the black riders? What is it about our sport that makes it
so unappealing to an entire race of people?

Anybody have any theories?

- -

"May you have the winds at your back,
And a really low gear for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

(Zoot Katz) said:

"Claire Petersky"

Quoted message said:

I did have a motorist nudge me, where
the bumper was put right up against my
back tire, and push the bike, in what --
December? I found this terrifying. This
happened in suburbia, as it turns out,
by a black woman in a compact car
with Maine licence plates. I don't know
what stereotype to draw on for that one.

Quoted message said:

The idiotic homicidal type that should be
shot on sight.
--
zk

Not a good idea, Zoot, they might take to shooting back. Worse, they'd
have a legitimate defense.

- -

"May you have the winds at your back,
And a really low gear for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

Quoted message said:

I believe it. Interesting though, recently i was watching a

PBS show

Quoted message said:

about Malcolm X, who grew up in Michigan. I was surprised

when they

Quoted message said:

said that (at the time,anyways) Michigan had an even higher

Klan

Quoted message said:

membership than any state in the Deep south. I don't know if

that

Quoted message said:

statistic remained the same in the years after the 1930s.

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Michigan is a wonderful
state, but not without its fringe element militias even now.

There's a picture here
http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/journal/page/?o=as&page_id=9558&v=0
from one of my bike tours. The picture of from Wayland,
Michigan and shows what seems at first glance to be a
lawnmower / garden tractor store, but its name is "Waco Sales
Company" (after Waco, Texas, where there was a violent
showdown between the Feds and a resistance group in the early
1990's*) with a nice sign on the marquee "We buy and sell
guns". There's a lot of hunting in Michigan, so there's
certainly a reasonable commercial market for buying and
selling guns. The "Waco" connection was pretty creepy,
though. I decided that I'd take a picture and get my
lycra-clad self further up the road.

* For more information on the Waco controversy -- and a
sampling of the heat still surrounding it -- see sites like
http://expage.com/lukester84

jt said:

It is more an issue of socioeconomic's than race. I know runners &
cyclists of all races. However I have always lived in nice
middle/upper class neighborhoods. People who live in working class
neighborhoods who are adults generally don't exercise other than
perhaps lifting weights, cardio is non-existent.

People riding on bikes/running wearing spandex etc it can be safely
assumed that their job does not involve manual labor but most likely
sitting at a desk. I have had jobs when I was younger that involved
manual labor and I was too tired to exercise.

I know anyone can find anecdotal evidence to the contrary but the
facts are what they are.

I think this is generally true, but I found the exception in southern CA. While
the usual crew are still dominant in cycling, there are plenty of people in the
construction business, both management and labor, as well as a lot of
police/fire/rescue folks.

Then again, class differences and identities are not as apparent in CA as in the
east. Oviously some people have way more money than others, but the usual class
stereotypes hardly apply. Nor are class identities as strong. There are plenty
of construction workers with yuppie tastes, and professionals with redneck
tastes. Assumptions about income levels don't apply either -- skilled tradesmen
often make healthy six figure incomes, while engineers, scientists, and
educators with advanced degrees struggle to make half that much.

About being too tired to work -- it happens, but smart laborers know staying in
shape in makes their job a lot easier. If you can't maintain your pace all day,
every day, week to week, month to month, you're doing something wrong. Working
yourself into shape on the job only works when you're young -- sometimes. After
30 or so, it takes a concerted effort to stay in shape in order to keep working
comfortably. If this isn't true at 30, it certainly is at 40. Just 50 years
ago it was common for laborers to retire at 40, and drop dead by 45. Today we
know a lot more about nutrition, exercise, overuse injuries, etc. Of course not
everyone's up to speed with this. As with many other things it's a problem of
education.

Matt O.