Who does not use drugs?

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Doer, Jan 29, 2004.

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  1. Doer

    Doer Guest

    I was at a club race meeting the other day and was listening to all the conversations about these
    "Dope heads" in professional cycling. The most verbal rider was really going on about using drugs.
    He loudly denounced all drug use. This started me thinking, When I do a longish ride (80-100 Ks) I
    use XLR8, Occasionally a can of coke towards the end of the ride, which really is a good "pick me
    up" for a short period. I now discover that the loudest proponent against drugs in cycling has this
    "energy system" About ten K's before the end of a race he will pop a No-Doz (Keep awake) pill and
    down a can of flat (Well shaken) coke. Now to me he is as bad as any "dope head" in any peleton,
    professional or not. To me doping is doping, but where does "doping' start? Am I a doper as I take
    substances that increase my riding ability for a short while? I think many of us need to think
    carefully about what we use ourselves before condemning any body else. Sure any illegal substance
    should be dealt to, but just a note of caution about what we ourselves use. Reading the labels on
    some of these new "energy" drinks has startled the "Begabbers" out of me. The crap they put in these
    drinks!! I know that now I need to be much more careful about what I use on my biddens. Just a
    thought Doer.
     
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  2. In rec.bicycles.racing Doer <[email protected]> wrote:

    > When I do a longish ride (80-100 Ks) I use XLR8, Occasionally a can of coke towards the end of the
    > ride, which really is a good "pick me up" for a short period. I now discover that the loudest
    > proponent against drugs in cycling has this "energy system" About ten K's before the end of a race
    > he will pop a No-Doz (Keep awake) pill and down a can of flat (Well shaken) coke. Now to me he is
    > as bad as any "dope head" in any peleton, professional or not.

    Dude,

    Either you are the same guy who posted this message last month about No-Doz and doping:

    <http://groups.google.com/groups?q=no-doz+caffeine+group:rec.bicycles.racing&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-
    8&selm=3fe6b684%241%40darkstar&rnum=4>

    or you Kiwis really have an unhealthy obsession with No-Doz. Stewart Fleming, can we get a ruling
    here? Jeez. It's just like drinking a cup of coffee, only not as enjoyable.

    > To me doping is doping, but where does "doping' start? Am I a doper as I take substances that
    > increase my riding ability for a short while? I think many of us need to think carefully about
    > what we use ourselves before condemning any body else. Sure any illegal substance should be dealt
    > to, but just a note of caution about what we ourselves use.

    You're blurring a distinction, like between over the counter medication and abusing prescription
    drugs for one thing. Do you really think popping a No-Doz and flat coke is on the same ethical level
    as bulking up on steroids or sludging up on EPO?
     
  3. Donald Munro

    Donald Munro Guest

    Benjamin Weiner wrote:

    > Either you are the same guy who posted this message last month about No-Doz and doping:
    >
    > <http://groups.google.com/groups?q=no-doz+caffeine+group:rec.bicycles.racing&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-
    > 8&selm=3fe6b684%241%40darkstar&rnum=4>
    >
    > or you Kiwis really have an unhealthy obsession with No-Doz. Stewart Fleming, can we get a ruling
    > here? Jeez. It's just like drinking a cup of coffee, only not as enjoyable.

    Perhaps Steward will take the 5th Amendment when it comes to Kiwis having unhealthy obsessions :)
     
  4. "Benjamin Weiner" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    > You're blurring a distinction, like between over the counter medication and abusing prescription
    > drugs for one thing. Do you really think popping a No-Doz and flat coke is on the same ethical
    > level as bulking up on steroids or sludging up on EPO?

    You're operating at the most egregious extremes and acting like every situation is cut and dried.
    The distinction is already very blurry.

    Is it okay to take a no-doze half way through a race, because you recognize that caffeine has
    performance enhancing properties that are advantageous? What about two or three no-doze? As long as
    I don't violate the number in the piss test, I didn't cheat, right? Now, what if I decide to also
    take ephedrine, but take it at a level that will be below that which will make you test positive at
    the published limit? Is that cheating?

    Now howabout testosterone: Endurance athletes are known to have testosterone levels drop over
    the course of long events (e.g., a 10 day - 3 week tour). Is it okay for the team doctor to
    monitor testosterone levels and, when they start to drop off, inject riders to bring them back
    to normal levels?

    Howabout blood boosters? If I take drugs that increase my hematocrit, but I don't exceed the 50%
    rule, have I really broken the rules? What if I don't do any drugs, and I sleep in a hyperbaric
    chamber and spike my hematocrit over 50, does that mean that I'm a cheater?

    When you get right down to it, the only way to determine cheating from non-cheating is to compare
    behavior and (where applicable) lab results to the letter of the rules, and where it is violative in
    a specific, non-subjective manner, then its cheating. That's why the real trick is to write rules
    that are enforceable and that make sense.
     
  5. Jtn

    Jtn Guest

    im thinking illegal should mean anything that has to be given out by a doctor. anything over the
    counter should be legal as long as your under the limit, I.e. caffeine., effies, the likes.
     
  6. leif_ericson

    leif_ericson New Member

    Joined:
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    Isn't EPO an OTC drug in some countries???
     
  7. "hold my beer and watch this..." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    >
    > Is it okay to take a no-doze half way through a race, because you recognize that caffeine has
    > performance enhancing properties that are advantageous? What about two or three no-doze? As long
    > as I don't violate the number in the piss test, I didn't cheat, right?

    Right.

    JT
     
  8. Gwhite

    Gwhite Guest

    "hold my beer and watch this..." wrote:
    >
    > "Benjamin Weiner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >
    > > You're blurring a distinction, like between over the counter medication and abusing prescription
    > > drugs for one thing. Do you really think popping a No-Doz and flat coke is on the same ethical
    > > level as bulking up on steroids or sludging up on EPO?
    >
    > You're operating at the most egregious extremes and acting like every situation is cut and dried.
    > The distinction is already very blurry.
    >
    > Is it okay to take a no-doze half way through a race, because you recognize that caffeine has
    > performance enhancing properties that are advantageous? What about two or three no-doze? As long
    > as I don't violate the number in the piss test, I didn't cheat, right? Now, what if I decide to
    > also take ephedrine, but take it at a level that will be below that which will make you test
    > positive at the published limit? Is that cheating?
    >
    > Now howabout testosterone: Endurance athletes are known to have testosterone levels drop over
    > the course of long events (e.g., a 10 day - 3 week tour). Is it okay for the team doctor to
    > monitor testosterone levels and, when they start to drop off, inject riders to bring them back
    > to normal levels?
    >
    > Howabout blood boosters? If I take drugs that increase my hematocrit, but I don't exceed the 50%
    > rule, have I really broken the rules? What if I don't do any drugs, and I sleep in a hyperbaric
    > chamber and spike my hematocrit over 50, does that mean that I'm a cheater?
    >
    > When you get right down to it, the only way to determine cheating from non-cheating is to compare
    > behavior and (where applicable) lab results to the letter of the rules, and where it is violative
    > in a specific, non-subjective manner, then its cheating.

    I think you just answered your own questions.

    > That's why the real trick is to write rules that are enforceable and that make sense.

    Today, the folks that go into that "business of writing the rules" aren't all that bright, or have
    other objectives, which may or may not be public. Dream on.
     
  9. Doer wrote:

    > I was at a club race meeting the other day and was listening to all the conversations about these
    > "Dope heads" in professional cycling. The most verbal rider was really going on about using drugs.
    > He loudly denounced all drug use. This started me thinking, When I do a longish ride (80-100 Ks) I
    > use XLR8, Occasionally a can of coke towards the end of the ride, which really is a good "pick me
    > up" for a short period. I now discover that the loudest proponent against drugs in cycling has
    > this "energy system" About ten K's before the end of a race he will pop a No-Doz (Keep awake) pill
    > and down a can of flat (Well shaken) coke. Now to me he is as bad as any "dope head" in any
    > peleton, professional or not.

    Go and read what Eddie B used to recommend as "rocket fuel" for the last 30km of a 160km road
    race... Caffeine is legal in 2004.
     
  10. Benjamin Weiner wrote:

    > or you Kiwis really have an unhealthy obsession with No-Doz. Stewart Fleming, can we get a ruling
    > here? Jeez. It's just like drinking a cup of coffee, only not as enjoyable.

    I have some in the bathroom cabinet, just like VDB. I never touched the stuff. It's for my
    mother-in-law.

    I know anecdotally that it is used in NZ races, even at club level. Who cares? It's legal
    now anyway.
     
  11. Donald Munro wrote:

    > Benjamin Weiner wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Either you are the same guy who posted this message last month about No-Doz and doping:
    >>
    >><http://groups.google.com/groups?q=no-doz+caffeine+group:rec.bicycles.racing&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-
    >>8&selm=3fe6b684%241%40darkstar&rnum=4>
    >>
    >>or you Kiwis really have an unhealthy obsession with No-Doz. Stewart Fleming, can we get a ruling
    >>here? Jeez. It's just like drinking a cup of coffee, only not as enjoyable.
    >
    >
    > Perhaps Steward will take the 5th Amendment when it comes to Kiwis having unhealthy obsessions :)

    Bungee jumping, jet boating, mountain climbing, paragliding, heli-skiing, sheep shagging. 5 out of 6
    of those activities are legal. As for obsessives, you should see the local Scrabble set...
     
  12. leif_ericson wrote:

    > Jtn wrote:
    > > im thinking illegal should mean anything that has to be given out by a doctor. anything over
    > > the counter should be legal as long as your under the limit, I.e. caffeine., effies, the
    > > likes.
    >
    >
    >
    > Isn't EPO an OTC drug in some countries???

    WTF is Evening Primrose Oil gonna do to enhance performance? It might stop the hot flushes, but...

    So when Rumsas said the EPO was for his mother-in-law, he could have been telling the truth...
     
  13. Steven

    Steven Guest

    "JTN" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > im thinking illegal should mean anything that has to be given out by a doctor. anything over the
    > counter should be legal as long as your under the limit, I.e. caffeine., effies, the likes.

    That would make Cellebrex illegal and 1-testosterone legal. Try again.
     
  14. Brian Trdina

    Brian Trdina Guest

    "JTN" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > im thinking illegal should mean anything that has to be given out by a doctor. anything over the
    > counter should be legal as long as your under the limit, I.e. caffeine., effies, the likes.

    That's a good rule.

    I also think that if you cut the course, it should only be illegal if

    at the bar, it shouldn't be considered cheating if you wear a condom and no one finds out about it.
     
  15. Jtn

    Jtn Guest

    crap....obviously.....

    if that maks 1-testo legal than it should be if you can take it without a doctors script.....

    me personally, i only take cliff bars and r4, without a docs script of course. with a script i
    couldnt begin to tell ya my doping habits.....

    "Steven" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "JTN" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > im thinking illegal should mean anything that has to be given out by a doctor. anything over the
    > > counter should be legal as long as your under
    the
    > > limit, I.e. caffeine., effies, the likes.
    >
    > That would make Cellebrex illegal and 1-testosterone legal. Try again.
     
  16. Jtn

    Jtn Guest

    right on, for the whore one.....lololo

    "Brian trdina" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "JTN" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > im thinking illegal should mean anything that has to be given out by a doctor. anything over the
    > > counter should be legal as long as your under
    the
    > > limit, I.e. caffeine., effies, the likes.
    >
    >
    > That's a good rule.
    >
    > I also think that if you cut the course, it should only be illegal if

    > at the bar, it shouldn't be considered cheating if you wear a condom and no one finds out
    > about it.
     
  17. Jtn

    Jtn Guest

    AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, that was clevvvvvor.... is it on the banned list????

    "Stewart Fleming" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > WTF is Evening Primrose Oil gonna do to enhance performance? It might stop the hot flushes, but...
    >
    > So when Rumsas said the EPO was for his mother-in-law, he could have been telling the truth...
     
  18. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Donald Munro" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]...
    > Benjamin Weiner wrote:
    >
    > > Either you are the same guy who posted this message last month about No-Doz and doping:
    > >
    > >
    <http://groups.google.com/groups?q=no-doz+caffeine+group:rec.bicycles.racing &hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-
    8&selm=3fe6b684%241%40darkstar&rnum=4>
    > >
    > > or you Kiwis really have an unhealthy obsession with No-Doz. Stewart Fleming, can we get a
    > > ruling here? Jeez. It's just like drinking a cup of coffee, only not as enjoyable.
    >
    > Perhaps Steward will take the 5th Amendment when it comes to Kiwis having unhealthy obsessions :)

    After all, there are those rumors about him and Italian whores.....
     
  19. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "hold my beer and watch this..." <[email protected]> on a wanker's night
    out wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Benjamin Weiner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > You're blurring a distinction, like between over the counter medication and abusing prescription
    > > drugs for one thing. Do you really think popping a No-Doz and flat coke is on the same ethical
    > > level as bulking up on steroids or sludging up on EPO?
    >
    > Is it okay to take a no-doze half way through a race, because you
    recognize
    > that caffeine has performance enhancing properties that are advantageous? What about two or three
    > no-doze? As long as I don't violate the number in the piss test, I didn't cheat, right? Now, what
    > if I decide to also take ephedrine, but take it at a level that will be below that which will make
    > you test positive at the published limit? Is that cheating?

    If you believe that no-doz is a pick-me-up be my guest. If you think that ephidrine below the
    levels that are illegal is going to give you a performance boost be my guest. But then you never
    were very bright.

    > Now howabout testosterone: Endurance athletes are known to have
    testosterone
    > levels drop over the course of long events (e.g., a 10 day - 3 week tour). Is it okay for the team
    > doctor to monitor testosterone levels and, when they start to drop off, inject riders to bring
    > them back to normal levels?

    I would say that those who need testosterone boosting probably don't have any balls to begin with.
     
  20. Ronde Chump

    Ronde Chump Guest

    According to USADA, you're a doper.

    "the use of an expedient (substance or method) which is potentially harmful to athletes’ health
    and/or capable of enhancing their performance"

    >Subject: Re: Who does not use drugs? From: Benjamin Weiner [email protected] Date: 1/30/2004
    >2:44 AM Eastern Standard Time Message-id: <[email protected]>
    >
    >In rec.bicycles.racing Doer <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> When I do a longish ride (80-100 Ks) I use XLR8, Occasionally a can of coke towards the end of
    >> the ride, which really is a good "pick me up" for a short period. I now discover that the loudest
    >> proponent against drugs in cycling has this "energy system" About ten K's before the end of a
    >> race he will pop a No-Doz (Keep awake) pill and down a can of flat (Well shaken) coke. Now to me
    >> he is as bad as any "dope head" in any peleton, professional or not.
    >
    >Dude,
    >
    >Either you are the same guy who posted this message last month about No-Doz and doping:
    >
    >
    ><http://groups.google.com/groups?q=no-doz+caffeine+group:rec.bicycles.rac
    ing&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3fe6b684%241%40darkstar&rnum=4>
    >
    >or you Kiwis really have an unhealthy obsession with No-Doz. Stewart Fleming, can we get a ruling
    >here? Jeez. It's just like drinking a cup of coffee, only not as enjoyable.
    >
    >> To me doping is doping, but where does "doping' start? Am I a doper as I take substances that
    >> increase my riding ability for a short while? I think many of us need to think carefully about
    >> what we use ourselves before condemning any body else. Sure any illegal substance should be dealt
    >> to, but just a note of caution about what we ourselves use.
    >
    >You're blurring a distinction, like between over the counter medication and abusing prescription
    >drugs for one thing. Do you really think popping a No-Doz and flat coke is on the same ethical
    >level as bulking up on steroids or sludging up on EPO?
     
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