Who gave what to whom?

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Niall Martin, Apr 29, 2003.

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  1. "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Tom Schulenburg <[email protected]> schreef in berichtnieuws
    > [email protected]
    > >
    > > "Niall Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > >
    > > > Boogerd on a late night chat show here in NL last night was asked about LANCE's apparent
    > > > antipathy towards him at the Amstel and gave an explicit version of what now seems to be the
    > > > stock answer -- that it all stems from the Alpe d'Huez stage in last year's TDF.
    > > >
    > > > USPS believe they let Boogerd win on the Alpe and that they were due some payback. Dekker
    > > > reneged on that agreement.
    > > >
    > >
    > > Has anyone from USPS said that they let Boogerd win? It's more likely
    > that
    > > USPS did Rabobank a favor by not chasing so that Levi could stay in the
    > top
    > > ten on GC - Sastre finished with Armstrong and Basso was right behind Leipheimer. If Levi cracks
    > > in the chase, he could have lost major time
    to
    > > those chasing him.
    > >
    > > - T
    >
    > US Postal did chase. Up to La Plagne, the chase group was led by US Postal riders and in the final
    > kms, Armstrong chased Boogerd. I don't see where
    the
    > myth that US Postal wasn't chasing comes from.
    >

    There was a chase group with O'Grady, Jalabert, Merckx, Mayo, etc who were away from the yellow
    jersey group by several minutes. As I recall, Lance didn't start taking time away from Boogerd until
    the last 10-15k (When Boogerd was 6 or 7 minutes up.) If he was really chasing for a win, I think he
    would have moved earlier.

    -T

    P.S. - This might have been the stage where he "let" Sastre cross the line in front of him?
     


  2. Amit

    Amit Guest

    "Steven L. Sheffield" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (otto) wrote:
    >
    >
    > > As far as Lnace not winning any grand mountains: what was Siestres, or Alpe d'Huez?
    >
    >
    > We will never see Lance go on a long attack in the mountains, like Virenque, Jalabert, Chiappucci,
    > etc. have done ...

    Armstrong races to win - the overall. Those guys, especially the French (and Jalabert in his last
    two years) prefer to put on a "heroic" show. The fans lap it up.

    -Amit
     
  3. In article <[email protected]>, Alex Rodriguez <[email protected]> wrote:

    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >
    > >We will never see Lance go on a long attack in the mountains, like Virenque, Jalabert,
    > >Chiappucci, etc. have done ...
    >
    > Towards the end of his career we might see that.

    Doubtful, unless he has a bad Tour this year or next year, and feels he needs to go on the long
    break to try and bring back time. When he starts to lose his Tour GC prowess, he'll retire, rather
    than risking looking like a fading star, but rounding out his palmares.

    --
    Steven L. Sheffield stevens at veloworks dot com veloworks at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net bellum
    pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
     
  4. Greg Hall

    Greg Hall Guest

    Anders H. Andersen <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > On 29 Apr 2003 12:08:30 -0700, [email protected] (Greg Hall) wrote: You mean 1986?

    Hey Flanders, ever see the movie Brazil (1985) and how a clerical error leads to all sorts of
    mayhem? I hope my typo doesn't have the same affect on rbr. Damnit, there I go again.

    Greg 'Tuttle' Hall
     
  5. Peter Allen

    Peter Allen Guest

    "Amit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Steven L. Sheffield" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (otto) wrote:
    > >
    > >
    > > > As far as Lnace not winning any grand mountains: what was Siestres, or Alpe d'Huez?
    > >
    > >
    > > We will never see Lance go on a long attack in the mountains, like Virenque, Jalabert,
    > > Chiappucci, etc. have done ...
    >
    > Armstrong races to win - the overall. Those guys, especially the French (and Jalabert in his last
    > two years) prefer to put on a "heroic" show. The fans lap it up.

    Putting it another way, going on a long attack early in a mountain stage pretty much guarantees you
    lots of mountains points. The peloton won't bother chasing you immediately when you're several
    minutes down on GC. You'll probably get caught towards the end of the race, though, and then the GC
    contenders in whatever's left of the peloton by then will be much fresher than you, and will take a
    lot of time off you up the last climb to the finish.

    To go on a long solo attack with the intention of gaining time on GC, you have to be incredibly
    strong: and no-one since Merckx has really been that good.

    Jalabert in any case wasn't particularly trying to put on a 'heroic show'; he knew he wasn't capable
    of winning GC, and hadn't been fast enough to win sprints for some years, so he only had the
    mountains jersey to go for.

    >
    > -Amit

    Peter
     
  6. Jenko

    Jenko Guest

    Tom Kunich wrote ...
    >
    > > We will never see Lance go on a long attack in the mountains, like Virenque, Jalabert,
    > > Chiappucci, etc. have done ...
    >
    > We would never have seen those men go if they were leading the Tour.

    I did see Chiapucci attack while in yellow, on the way to Luz Ardiden. Lost a couple of minutes to
    Lemond at the finish line.

    Same with Jalabert in Vuelta'95. He arrived to Avila 4'40" ahead of the peloton. ONCE being so
    dominant that year helped to open such a big gap, but still, quite an exhibition.

    Jenko
     
  7. Otto

    Otto Guest

    You forgot to mention that Belgian TV is better because flemish sounds a helluva alot better than
    smeets dead dutch.

    It's all in the ears.

    "Bart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Belgian TV is good just because there is so much.
     
  8. Amit

    Amit Guest

    "Peter Allen" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<b8nle7
    >
    > Putting it another way, going on a long attack early in a mountain stage pretty much guarantees
    > you lots of mountains points. The peloton won't bother chasing you immediately when you're several
    > minutes down on GC. You'll probably get caught towards the end of the race, though, and then the
    > GC contenders in whatever's left of the peloton by then will be much fresher than you, and will
    > take a lot of time off you up the last climb to the finish.
    >
    > To go on a long solo attack with the intention of gaining time on GC, you have to be incredibly
    > strong: and no-one since Merckx has really been that good.
    >

    Or even in a long classic.

    Early "suicide" attacks are only used by (to use Liggett's term) "lesser riders", who can only hope
    to gain results or publicity with a risky gamble. You never see Musseuw attack solo from the gun in
    a classic.

    It is fun to watch, and it is exciting when an obscure rider manages to hold off the pack to take
    that rare win from a long breakaway. But even Durand's best results came from long breakaways with
    one or more other riders (as opposed to solo rides which he is known for).

    -Amit
     
  9. On 30 Apr 2003 01:56:55 -0700, Amit wrote:
    >Early "suicide" attacks are only used by (to use Liggett's term) "lesser riders", who can only hope
    >to gain results or publicity with a risky gamble. You never see Musseuw attack solo from the gun in
    >a classic.

    Who's talking about solo from the gun? And Museeuw did go solo with 40 km ahead in Paris-Roubaix,
    and won. That's about the equivalent of going on the second to last climb in a mountain stage.
     
  10. Niall Martin

    Niall Martin Guest

    On 30 Apr 2003 01:55:32 -0700, [email protected] (otto) wrote:

    >You forgot to mention that Belgian TV is better because flemish sounds a helluva alot better than
    >smeets dead dutch.
    >
    >It's all in the ears.
    >

    kijk nu daar gaat hij, tic, tic, tic, tic, tic,

    toe curling.
     
  11. Niall Martin

    Niall Martin Guest

    On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:47:55 GMT, "Tom Schulenburg" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    >"Hyllus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >> The fact that Armstrong feels the need to start calling in favors shows me that he is starting to
    >> doubt his own abilities.
    >>
    >> I think that we are starting to see the beginning of the end.
    >>
    >> Armstrong will be lucky to win 5 tours, getting his 5th either this year or next. 6 will not
    >> happen.
    >>
    >
    >Lucky? Then why is he the favorite? If anyone but Armstrong wins this year, they will most likely
    >be the lucky one.
    >
    >-T

    But strange that USPS should be allowing this bad blood to develop with a team that should be a
    natural ally come Tour time -- strong in depth, usually well-organised, no GC ambitions, English
    speaking. Seems especially ill-advised to piss off the Dutch given the question marks hanging over
    USPS's collective performance at the moment. And for what? Pay-back for an alleged bad-debt from
    last year's Tour which Armstrong won anyway?

    Niall
     
  12. Bob Schwartz

    Bob Schwartz Guest

    Jenko <[email protected]> wrote:
    > I did see Chiapucci attack while in yellow, on the way to Luz Ardiden. Lost a couple of minutes to
    > Lemond at the finish line.

    > Same with Jalabert in Vuelta'95. He arrived to Avila 4'40" ahead of the peloton. ONCE being so
    > dominant that year helped to open such a big gap, but still, quite an exhibition.

    I think the perception of risk was a big factor in both in both of those examples. Even though
    Chiapucci was in yellow, he still felt as though he had to make up time on Lemond because of the
    final time trial and what Lemond had done to Fignon, a much better time trialist than Chiapucci, the
    year before. In his view he was behind with opportunities running out to gain the time he needed. He
    had to take a chance.

    In retrospect he probably would have won if he had just followed wheels to Luz Ardiden and then
    focused completely on the time trial. But hindsight is perfect and who would have guessed that at
    the beginning of that stage?

    I think Jalabert's Vuelta is similar at the opposite extreme. As you note, ONCE owned the race that
    year. That made it a lot easier for Jalabert to take a chance on any particular stage. The risk that
    it would have cost him the race was small.

    Here on rbr we place a lot of value on style. But I hardly think the game of risk minimization is
    unique to people like Armstrong. Risk and results being what they are I don't think it is chance
    (heh) that bigger risks are taken by riders with less to lose.

    Bob Schwartz [email protected]
     
  13. Nev Shea

    Nev Shea Guest

    "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

    > Ewoud Dronkert <[email protected]> schreef in berichtnieuws
    > [email protected]
    >> On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:28:09 GMT, Steven L. Sheffield wrote:
    >> >We will never see Lance go on a long attack in the mountains, like Virenque, Jalabert,
    >> >Chiappucci, etc. have done ...
    >>
    >> That's what I meant. Which Tour winners did long mountain breakaways? Merckx, Coppi, Bahamontes,
    >> OcaƱa no doubt. The 20th century champions we will not see again.
    >
    > Lesser gods also tried it. Thevenet in a stage to La Mongie (I think), and Pantani tried it in the
    > infamous Joux Plane stage. And when did Pantani attack in the stage to Les Deux Alpes?

    According to this, he attacked the Ullrich group on the Galibier to bridge up to the lead group.
    Looks like his pharmacist finished right behind him . . . before getting arrested a few days later.

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/1998/tour98/stage15.html
     
  14. "Ewoud Dronkert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On 30 Apr 2003 01:56:55 -0700, Amit wrote:
    > >Early "suicide" attacks are only used by (to use Liggett's term) "lesser riders", who can only
    > >hope to gain results or publicity with a risky gamble. You never see Musseuw attack solo from the
    > >gun in a classic.
    >
    > Who's talking about solo from the gun? And Museeuw did go solo with 40 km ahead in Paris-Roubaix,
    > and won. That's about the equivalent of going on the second to last climb in a mountain stage.

    Paris Roubaix is what - 260km?

    That analogy doesn't work for me.
     
  15. "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    > > Who's talking about solo from the gun? And Museeuw did go solo with 40 km ahead in
    > > Paris-Roubaix, and won. That's about the equivalent of going on the second to last climb in a
    > > mountain stage.
    >
    >
    >
    > Paris Roubaix is what - 260km?
    >
    >
    > That analogy doesn't work for me.

    Why not?

    BTW, not that I'll be glad to see you go, but now that the next World Cup race isn't until August,
    are you disappearing again?
     
  16. On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:40:59 GMT, Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    >"Ewoud Dronkert" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> Museeuw did go solo with 40 km ahead in Paris-Roubaix, and won. That's about the equivalent of
    >> going on the second to last climb in a mountain stage.
    >
    >Paris Roubaix is what - 260km? That analogy doesn't work for me.

    Generally considered to be way too early for favorites to go solo.
     
  17. "Ewoud Dronkert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:40:59 GMT, Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    > >"Ewoud Dronkert" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> Museeuw did go solo with 40 km ahead in Paris-Roubaix, and won. That's about the equivalent of
    > >> going on the second to last climb in a mountain stage.
    > >
    > >Paris Roubaix is what - 260km? That analogy doesn't work for me.
    >
    > Generally considered to be way too early for favorites to go solo.

    2 reasons why it doesn't work for me:

    In P-R the riders have been on the bike for 5 hours with ~1 more to go.

    In P-R the favorite does not have to continue to race the day after and the day after that. In
    the TdF, the conservative Indurain method has caught on because the savvy GC leader will not
    risk blowing himself to pieces for the rest of the race. After all, the goal is to wear the
    jersey in Paris.
     
  18. "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > BTW, not that I'll be glad to see you go, but now that the next World Cup race isn't until August,
    > are you disappearing again?

    Wasn't really planning on it, but we'll see what happens (with a few of the 'tards here).
     
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