Who is Jesus?



M

moslim

Guest
Without a doubt, you have often heard the claim that Jesus is God, the
second person in the "Holy trinity." However, the very Bible which is
used as a basis for knowledge about Jesus and as the basis for
doctrine within Christianity clearly belies this claim. We urge you to
consult your own Bible and verify that the following conclusions are
not drawn out of context:

1. God is All Knowing.....but Jesus was not
When speaking of the day of judgment, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a
limitation on his knowledge when he said, "but of that day and hour
knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the
son, but the Father." Mark 13:32, and Matt 24:36. But God knows all.
His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own
admission, did not know when the day of judgment would be, is clear
proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not
God.

2. God is All Powerful.....but Jesus was not
While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the
power he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said,
"Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but
what he seeth the Father do..." St. John 5:19. Again he said, "I can
of mine own self do nothing: as I hear I judge: and my judgment is
just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father
which hath sent me." St. John 5:30. But God is not only all-powerful,
He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his
own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus
is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.

3. God does not have a God.....but Jesus did have a God.
God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call
upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one
whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "l ascend unto
my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." St. John
20:17. He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My
God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?" Matt 27:46. If Jesus were God,
then couldn't this be read, "Myself, myself why hast thou forsaken
me?" Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's
prayer (Luke 11:2-4), was he praying to himself? When in the garden of
Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup
pass from me: Nevertheless not as I will but as thou wilt." Matt
26:36-39. Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own
admission and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped, and prayed
to another being as God is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.

4. God is an invisible spirit.....but Jesus was flesh and blood
While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that
this could not be done with God when he said. "No man hath seen God at
any time." St. John 1:18. '"Ye have neither heard His voice at any
time nor seen His shape." St. John 5:37. He also said in St. John
4:24. "God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in
spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or
heard God at any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is
clear proof that Jesus was not God.

5. No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him but Jesus
acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from
his own.
Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not
equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth
of Jesus himself who said in St. John 14:28, "My Father is greater
than I." When someone referred to him as good master in Matt 19:17,
Jesus responded, "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but
one, that is God..." Furthermore, Jesus drew clear distinctions
between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from
God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." St. John 8:42. Jesus
gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his
equality with God,when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but thine
be done" and in St. John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will
of the Father which hath sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did
not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do
so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself,
and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the
will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One
and therefore Jesus is not God.

Conclusion
The Church recognizes the Bible as the primary source of knowledge
about God and Jesus. But since the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is
not the Supreme Being and the Supreme Being is not Jesus, upon what
basis have you come to believe otherwise?

My brother or sister, the belief that the Supreme Being is a Trinity
is false and completely inconsistent with the words of Jesus as
presented in the Bible. God is one, not three. He is a perfect unity.

If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to
Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.


What is the word of God about Jesus:

A. Regarding Sonship of Jesus:
That is Jesus, son of Mary, in word of truth, concerning which they
are doubting. It is not for God to take a son unto Him. Glory be to
Him! When He decrees a thing he but says to it "Be", and it is.
(Qur'an 19:34,35).

And they say, 'The All-merciful has taken unto Himself a son.' You
have indeed advanced something hideous. The heavens are well nigh rent
of it and the earth split asunder, and the mountains well nigh fall
down crashing for that they have attributed to the All-Merciful a son;
and it behoves not the All-Merciful to take a son. None is there in
the heavens and earth but comes to the All-Merciful as a servant
(Qur'an 19:88-93).

Truly the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He
created him of dust, then said He unto him, "Be", and he was. (Qur'an
3:59).

People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say
not as to God but the Truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only
the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a
spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers. and say not,
'Three', Refrain, better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be
on Him - that He should have a son! To Him belongs that which is in
the heavens and on the earth, God suffices for a guardian. (Qur'an
4:171)

B. Regarding Jesus being God:
And when God said. 'O Jesus son of Mary,did you say unto men, "Take me
and my mother as gods, apart from God?" He Said, 'To You be Glory! It
is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, You
knew it, knowing what is within my soul, and I do not know what is
within Your soul; You know the things unseen. I only said to them what
You did command me: "Serve God, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a
witness over them, while I remained among them; but when You did take
me to Yourself the Watcher over them; You are the witness of
everything. (Quran 5:116,117)

C. Regarding Crucifiction of Jesus:
And for their unbelief, and their uttering against Mary a mighty
calumny, and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of
Mary, the Messenger of God'...yet they did not slay him, neither
crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who
are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him, they
have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they
did not slay him of certainty... no indeed, God raised him up to Him;
God is Almighty, All-Wise. There is not one of the people of the Book
but will assuredly believe in him before his death, and on the
Resurrection Day he will be a witness against them. (Qur'an 4:156-159)
 
moslim wrote:
> Without a doubt, you have often heard the claim that Jesus is God,

blahblahblah -snip-

The easter Bunny is more topical and neither rides a bike

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
"A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> moslim wrote:
>> Without a doubt, you have often heard the claim that Jesus is God,

> blahblahblah -snip-
>
> The easter Bunny is more topical and neither rides a bike
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> www.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971


While I don't believe in ANY Gods or Easter bunnies I did find a picture of
Jesus on a bike. I just knew there had to be some. Any pics of Muhammad on
a bike? Guess it's not worth getting your head cut off.

http://www.talyandruss.com/graphics/cds/gr-cov-jc.htm
 
On Mar 7, 11:49 pm, A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:
> moslim wrote:
> > Without a doubt, you have often heard the claim that Jesus is God,

>
> blahblahblah -snip-
>
> The easter Bunny is more topical and neither rides a bike
>
> --
> Andrew Muziwww.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971


I worship at the 'Church of Eddy Merckx'..there can be no other.
 
Tim McTeague wrote:
> "A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>moslim wrote:
>>
>>>Without a doubt, you have often heard the claim that Jesus is God,

>>
>>blahblahblah -snip-
>>
>>The easter Bunny is more topical and neither rides a bike
>>
>>--
>>Andrew Muzi
>>www.yellowjersey.org
>>Open every day since 1 April, 1971

>
>
> While I don't believe in ANY Gods or Easter bunnies I did find a picture of
> Jesus on a bike. I just knew there had to be some. Any pics of Muhammad on
> a bike? Guess it's not worth getting your head cut off.
>
> http://www.talyandruss.com/graphics/cds/gr-cov-jc.htm


He appears to be riding a single-speed. I'd guess a coaster brake, but
that cable coming off the handlebars must be doing something. The
coaster-brake brotherhood and the three-speed sect may now begin their
religious arguments. The crank is totally obscured, or we could see if
it's one-piece, square-taper, or octalink/isis, and thereby provide
material on RBT for an extended religious war. Let's not ask if He
greases his tapers.

Mark J.
 
On Mar 7, 11:34 pm, "moslim" <[email protected]> wrote:

<snipped>

- on The Supreme Being -

>
> God is All Knowing


>
> God is All Powerful



> God does not have a God



> No one is greater than God



And he posts to RBT from stanfordalumni.org! ;-)
 
>> moslim wrote:
>>> Without a doubt, you have often heard the claim that Jesus is God,

>> blahblahblah -snip-


> A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:
>> The easter Bunny is more topical and neither rides a bike


[email protected] wrote:
> Repent!
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/82116585@N00/169674013/
> Ignore the old-fashioned helmet!
> http://www.terrysvillage.com/tvweb/...753&parentCategoryId=122753&categoryId=162631


Cute. Now, since we're feeling ecumenical, let's see muhammad in a silly
costume.

Or, as Orwell noted, some are more equal than others.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
"Tim McTeague" wrote: (clip) While I don't believe in ANY Gods or Easter
bunnies I did find a picture of Jesus on a bike.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I have a similar picture of Albert Einstein on a bike. Is it possible they
were the same person. That might explain how Einstein was able to think of
things that others did not.
 
Leo Lichtman writes:

> "Tim McTeague" wrote: (clip) While I don't believe in ANY Gods or
> Easter bunnies I did find a picture of Jesus on a bike.


> I have a similar picture of Albert Einstein on a bike. Is it
> possible they were the same person. That might explain how Einstein
> was able to think of things that others did not.


Just the same Wikipedia would have rejected his writings because he
could cite no sources, and beyond that, he didn't do the research for
e=mc^2, it was obvious to him, just as riding a bicycle, something he
rarely did.

Jobst Brandt
 
On 2007-03-08, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> Leo Lichtman writes:
>
>> "Tim McTeague" wrote: (clip) While I don't believe in ANY Gods or
>> Easter bunnies I did find a picture of Jesus on a bike.

>
>> I have a similar picture of Albert Einstein on a bike. Is it
>> possible they were the same person. That might explain how Einstein
>> was able to think of things that others did not.

>
> Just the same Wikipedia would have rejected his writings because he
> could cite no sources, and beyond that, he didn't do the research for
> e=mc^2, it was obvious to him, just as riding a bicycle, something he
> rarely did.


Of course they would have rejected his writings, and with good cause, as
would have any print Encyclopaedia of the time. Wikipedia is not the
place for cutting-edge research, however brilliant.
 
>> "Tim McTeague" wrote: (clip) While I don't believe in ANY Gods or
>> Easter bunnies I did find a picture of Jesus on a bike.


> Leo Lichtman writes:
>> I have a similar picture of Albert Einstein on a bike. Is it
>> possible they were the same person. That might explain how Einstein
>> was able to think of things that others did not.


[email protected] wrote:
> Just the same Wikipedia would have rejected his writings because he
> could cite no sources, and beyond that, he didn't do the research for
> e=mc^2, it was obvious to him, just as riding a bicycle, something he
> rarely did.


I wondered about that.
In the famous photo he doesn't appear graceful or comfortable on the bike.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
On 08 Mar 2007 18:28:55 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>Leo Lichtman writes:
>
>> "Tim McTeague" wrote: (clip) While I don't believe in ANY Gods or
>> Easter bunnies I did find a picture of Jesus on a bike.

>
>> I have a similar picture of Albert Einstein on a bike. Is it
>> possible they were the same person. That might explain how Einstein
>> was able to think of things that others did not.

>
>Just the same Wikipedia would have rejected his writings because he
>could cite no sources, and beyond that, he didn't do the research for
>e=mc^2, it was obvious to him, just as riding a bicycle, something he
>rarely did.
>
>Jobst Brandt


Dear Jobst,

A) An encyclopedia is a reference source, meaning its articles refer
to other sources.

Wiki is not a research journal for publishing original research.

If you want to publish research, send it to an editor at an
appropriate journal, just as Einstein did--Einstein would never have
submitted his original research to the Encyclopedia Britannica.

B) Are you aware how strange it is to tack your quarrel with Wikipedia
onto this thread?

No one on RBT can understand your non-sequitur unless they wade
through this editorial fuss, which is about your interest in car
brakes, not bicycles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jobstbrandt

C) Are you actually comparing yourself to Einstein, you modest devil?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
On Mar 8, 10:28 am, [email protected] wrote:
> Leo Lichtman writes:
> > "Tim McTeague" wrote: (clip) While I don't believe in ANY Gods or
> > Easter bunnies I did find a picture of Jesus on a bike.
> > I have a similar picture of Albert Einstein on a bike. Is it
> > possible they were the same person. That might explain how Einstein
> > was able to think of things that others did not.

>
> Just the same Wikipedia would have rejected his writings because he
> could cite no sources, and beyond that, he didn't do the research for
> e=mc^2, it was obvious to him, just as riding a bicycle, something he
> rarely did.
>
> Jobst Brandt


BAHAHAHA LOL Good one!!!
 
On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 12:59:44 -0600, A Muzi <[email protected]>
wrote:

>>> "Tim McTeague" wrote: (clip) While I don't believe in ANY Gods or
>>> Easter bunnies I did find a picture of Jesus on a bike.

>
>> Leo Lichtman writes:
>>> I have a similar picture of Albert Einstein on a bike. Is it
>>> possible they were the same person. That might explain how Einstein
>>> was able to think of things that others did not.

>
>[email protected] wrote:
>> Just the same Wikipedia would have rejected his writings because he
>> could cite no sources, and beyond that, he didn't do the research for
>> e=mc^2, it was obvious to him, just as riding a bicycle, something he
>> rarely did.

>
>I wondered about that.
>In the famous photo he doesn't appear graceful or comfortable on the bike.


Dear Andrew,

Hmmm . . . Here's the picture:

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/teachers/blackholes/imagine/einstein.jpg

Hundreds of copies can be found on Google Images.

Try to look at it without any preconceptions.

A smiling man with white hair is riding a commuter-style bicycle in
what looks like a courtyard and turning to avoid the camera.

How would anyone look more graceful or comfortable? He's probably
turning at low speed and posing for the camera.

The picture was taken "at the home of Ben Meyer in Santa Barbara,
California, on February 18, 1933."

http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/einstein/sitecredits.php

At the time, Einstein was just short of 54. I don't know how often or
how well he rode a bicycle, but the picture itself shows only a fellow
well past the age at which most people learn to ride, obviously riding
a bicycle well enough to smile for a camera.

As a sidelight on how tricky biography can be, Wiki includes this
well-documented and interesting detail:

"The recurring rumor that Einstein failed in mathematics during his
education is untrue. On the contrary, Einstein always showed great
talent at mathematics; when he obtained his matura, he got the best
mark (6/6) in algebra, geometry, physics and history, among all of the
classes that he took.[61] The grading system of Switzerland, where 6
is the best mark, may have been confused with the German system, in
which 1 is the best mark."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein#Speculation_and_controversy

Einstein's report card! Anyone who does poorly in French should keep a
copy handy.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 

>>
>> Just the same Wikipedia would have rejected his writings because he
>> could cite no sources, and beyond that, he didn't do the research for
>> e=mc^2, it was obvious to him, just as riding a bicycle, something he
>> rarely did.

>
> Of course they would have rejected his writings, and with good cause, as
> would have any print Encyclopaedia of the time. Wikipedia is not the
> place for cutting-edge research, however brilliant.


No matter what you think of Wikipedia, you should compare it to
Conservapedia. They don't believe in gravity because "no one has seen it."
 
>>>> "Tim McTeague" wrote: (clip) While I don't believe in ANY Gods or
>>>> Easter bunnies I did find a picture of Jesus on a bike.


>>> Leo Lichtman writes:
>>>> I have a similar picture of Albert Einstein on a bike. Is it
>>>> possible they were the same person. That might explain how Einstein
>>>> was able to think of things that others did not.


>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> Just the same Wikipedia would have rejected his writings because he
>>> could cite no sources, and beyond that, he didn't do the research for
>>> e=mc^2, it was obvious to him, just as riding a bicycle, something he
>>> rarely did.


> A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I wondered about that.
>> In the famous photo he doesn't appear graceful or comfortable on the bike.


[email protected] wrote:
> Hmmm . . . Here's the picture:
> http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/teachers/blackholes/imagine/einstein.jpg
> Hundreds of copies can be found on Google Images.
> Try to look at it without any preconceptions.
> A smiling man with white hair is riding a commuter-style bicycle in
> what looks like a courtyard and turning to avoid the camera.
> How would anyone look more graceful or comfortable? He's probably
> turning at low speed and posing for the camera.
> The picture was taken "at the home of Ben Meyer in Santa Barbara,
> California, on February 18, 1933."
> http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/einstein/sitecredits.php

-snip extraneous-

Carl, I'm very familiar. A tenant hung that picture in my living room
for 4 years. I thought he looked odd on the bike when I first saw it and
I still think he looks odd on the bike. YMMV.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
On Mar 8, 11:43 am, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 12:59:44 -0600, A Muzi <[email protected]>
> wrote:


> >I wondered about that.
> >In the famous photo he doesn't appear graceful or comfortable on the bike.

>
> Dear Andrew,
>
> Hmmm . . . Here's the picture:
>
> http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/teachers/blackholes/imagine/einstei...
>
> Hundreds of copies can be found on Google Images.
>
> Try to look at it without any preconceptions.
>
> A smiling man with white hair is riding a commuter-style bicycle in
> what looks like a courtyard and turning to avoid the camera.
>
> How would anyone look more graceful or comfortable? He's probably
> turning at low speed and posing for the camera.


Dear Carl,

Your comments indicate that you are not familiar with proper fit of
bike to rider. Proper fit is extremely important for speed, good
handling, and pain- and injury-free cycling. If you get a
professional fitting you will be more comfortable on your own bike and
probably ride a lot more.

You can get fit in any quality bike shop. You can find a list of bike
shops in your area using Google; I put bicycle pueblo and got results
including Bob's Bicycles and Vance's Bicycle World. Better yet, drive
yourself and your bike to Vecchio's and have Peter set up your bike to
fit you better. You will be -much- more comfortable on your bike than
you previously thought was possible.

Here are some useful links on the subject:

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/sport/a/bikefit.htm
http://www.smartcycles.com/fitting_explained.htm

By the way, you mention that there are hundreds of copies of the photo
in question on Google Images. But, what you might not realize is,
there are -also- hundres of copies on Yahoo! Images.

Hope this helps,
Doug