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whole grain wheat

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
7 June 2005
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4 July 2005
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TC
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  1. Sbharrisatsignix.netcom.com said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    High glucose meals causes vascular disease. By direct damage from high


    blood glucose levels, and the chronic depletion of vitamins,
    specifically the B vitamins and vitamin c, which are essential to
    vascular health. <<

    COMMENT

    I suppose that would explain the many animal models of atherosclerosis
    caused by giving the animals high blood sugars chronically (aka
    diabetic or streptozotocin treated rats). Not.

    You mean the studies that fed animal source fats to normally vegetarian
    animals? Pretty sad science, if you ask me.

    Quoted message said:


    It DOESN'T work. You can give rats or rabbits or dogs or monkeys
    atherosclerosis by modifying their dietary fat and cholesterol. If
    there's any model where this has been done to these animals by screwing
    around with their dietary glucose loads and dietary carbs, please
    enlighten us. Yes, elevated blood sugars surely contribute to the
    human problem in frank diabetics. But most human vascular disease
    doesn't occur in frank diabetics. It does however, occur to humans with
    LDL > 100, and heart disease is rare in cultures where LDL is low.

    We are not talking about rats ir rabbits or dogs or monkeys, we are
    talking about humans.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Heart disease country is in India among the vegetarian Hindus who have triple the incidence of heart disease of their meat eating neighbors, the Indian Muslim. This is referred to as the Indian Paradox. <<

    COMMENT:

    There's no paradox about it. You know about that favorite Hindu food
    clarified butter, called ghee? Full of saturated fat, transfat,
    oxidized cholesterol. I can't think of a food better designed to give
    you atherosclerosis, and it has NOTHING to do with carbohydrates. Nada.

    That's is just plain ridiculous.

    Quoted message said:

    If these Hindus were vegan, now THAT would be a paradox. Ghee is no
    paradox. Ghee will kill you.

    SBH

    Garbage.

    TC

  2. "The mediterraneans and the japanese do not eat huge amounts of sugars.
    They eat moderate amounts of pasta and/or rice. They eat a lot of fresh
    whole-food foods with minimal processing. They eat entirely adequate
    amounts of healthy fats (fish fats, olive oil, etc). The live closer to
    the soil with little extra food processing other than just cooking the
    fresh foods. These foods are filling and full of real nutrition."

    The e. asia diet tradition has around 70 percent of carbohydrates in
    refined grain products, that is the paradox that low carbohydrate
    advocates must account for in their claims. If one doesn't over consume
    then problems are far less likely, and in the e. asian diet tradition they
    are active and not overweight.

  3. "Heart disease country is in India among the vegetarian Hindus who have
    triple the incidence of heart disease of their meat eating neighbors,
    the Indian Muslim. This is referred to as the Indian Paradox."

    Web source please.

  4. Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com <[email hidden]> wrote:
    : > I suppose that would explain the many animal models of atherosclerosis
    : > caused by giving the animals high blood sugars chronically (aka
    : > diabetic or streptozotocin treated rats). Not.

    : >>You mean the studies that fed animal source fats to normally vegetarian
    : animals? Pretty sad science, if you ask me. <<

    : Rats are not "normally vegetarian". They are omnivores. And

    They shun white flour.

    Interesting.

  5. They don't disclose it in the abstract, but it really doesn't matter.
    If high sugar is the PRIME causal thing, the association because blood
    sugar and heart disease should be closer than the association between
    other cholesterol and hypertension and heart disese. Which it is. And
    closer than the association between these factors and high blood sugar.
    Which it is, because with medication we now have the power to control
    them independently.

    I'm not saying high blood sugar doesn't contribute to artery damage.
    But NOTHING in the literature I know of suggests that it is the primary
    mechanism. Not epidemology, not intervention trials. And the fact that
    controlling glucoses in diabetics doesn't even do as much for risk of a
    second vascular event as controlling their pressures and cholesterols,
    is strong evidence against little varations in non-diabetics being the
    cause of of the scourge of heart disease in developed countries.
    Especially since the variations in cholesterol and blood pressure which
    go along with this scourge, ARE quite substantial.

    SBH

  6. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I suppose that would explain the many animal models of atherosclerosis


    : > caused by giving the animals high blood sugars chronically (aka
    : > diabetic or streptozotocin treated rats). Not.
    : >>You mean the studies that fed animal source fats to normally
    vegetarian
    : animals? Pretty sad science, if you ask me. <<
    : Rats are not "normally vegetarian". They are omnivores. And

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    They shun white flour.<<

    That is an urban legend created by people who've never had mice in
    their flour.

    SBH

  7. Quoted message said:

    "Heart disease country is in India among the vegetarian Hindus who have
    triple the incidence of heart disease of their meat eating neighbors,
    the Indian Muslim. This is referred to as the Indian Paradox."

    Web source please.

    http://www.indianewengland.com/media/paper549/news/2004/05/01/Medicine/Study.South.Asians.At.Higher.Risk.Of.Heart.Disease-673859.shtml

    ---

    "Asian Indians have the highest rates of heart attacks, with those
    settled in the United States having a 400 percent higher incidence than
    white Americans, and a 600 percent higher hospitalization than
    Chinese-Americans, despite the fact that almost half of them are
    lifelong vegetarians.

    ---

    Unique Indian paradox

    The higher rates of heart attacks in Indians worldwide are accompanied
    by paradoxically low rates of conventional risk factors: hypertension,
    obesity, cigarette smoking and cholesterol levels.

    The common tool employed to assess heart attack risk is the lipid
    profile. Indians usually have acceptable lipid profiles as recommended
    by the American Heart Association.

    ----

    Indians differ from other ethnic groups in the following ways:

    * Higher prevalence of abdominal obesity, glucose intolerance, insulin
    resistance and diabetes.

    * Higher prevalence of emerging clot-promoting risk factors.

    * Higher prevalence of cardiodysmetabolic syndrome (consisting of
    abdominal obesity, high tryiglycerides, low HDL, glucose intolerance,
    hyperinsulinemia and hypertension).

    ********************

    http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/501040510/story2.html

    "So vulnerable is the subcontinent to cardiovascular ailments that the
    World Health Organization (who) estimates that 60% of the world's
    cardiac patients will be Indian by 2010. "Of all Asians, South Asians
    have by far the worst problems" when it comes to heart disease, says
    Dr. Timothy Gill, an Asia-Pacific specialist with the International
    Obesity Task Force, a medical NGO that coordinates with the who on
    obesity issues."

    ---

    "Equally troubling, it is not just the elderly who are being hit by
    cardiovascular disease. In India, nearly 50% of CVD-related deaths
    occur below the age of 70, compared with just 22% in the West."

    ----

    One of the world's foremost epidemiologists of cardiovascular disease,
    Yusuf once championed the idea that ethnicity was a significant
    determinant of heart disease, but his recent research has convinced him
    otherwise. "By and large, the differences in heart-disease rates are
    because of different lifestyles," he says. "About 80% of the risk can
    be accounted for by known risk factors like smoking or obesity or blood
    pressure and the way we live and eat, which leaves very little room for
    genetic risk factors." Even the common idea that family history is a
    decisive risk factor, Yusuf says, overlooks the fact that families tend
    to have similar lifestyles and are exposed to the same environment.

    *******

    http://www.tlca.com/adults/heart.html

    Asian Indians at highest risk of heart disease in world

    BY JULIE SEVRENS LYONS AND ANU MANCHIKANTI

    (KRT) - Mr. Rao always chalked up his high cholesterol and blood
    pressure to bad luck, figuring a family history of heart troubles set
    him up for coronary artery disease. The 48-year-old never suspected his
    ethnicity could be to blame.

    But now researchers have determined that those of Indian and Pakistani
    descent have the highest rates of heart disease in the world, despite
    coming from a culture that shuns smoking, encourages a vegetarian diet
    and lacks many of the other classic risk factors for the disease.

    About 25 percent of all heart attacks among men of Indian descent occur
    while they are younger than 40, unheard of in any other population,
    according to researchers. Death rates from the disease are up to three
    times higher among Indians than those of European or East-Asian origin.

    Such findings, borne out most recently by a new report, surprise many
    Indo-Americans - and just as many doctors. Research carried out in the
    United Kingdom years ago began to suggest a genetic link, but there has
    not been a push for early screening in the Indo-American community
    here, and relatively few education campaigns.

    "Most physicians trained in the U.S. are not aware their Asian-Indian
    patients are at risk," said Dr. Susan Ivey, an assistant researcher at
    the University of California-Berkeley Center for Family and Community
    Health, which spearheaded the new study.

    And this lack of awareness, researchers worry, may be deadly.

    "Just being of Asian-Indian descent places you at higher risk for heart
    disease than having high cholesterol and being a smoker," said Dr. H.
    Robert Superko, director of research at the Berkeley HeartLab.

    Superko launched a separate study, the National Asian Indian Heart
    Disease Program, several years ago and discovered one gene is
    responsible for part of the increased risk in heart disease rates. A
    metabolic disorder common in Indians likely also plays a role, as does
    having high levels of a dangerous type of cholesterol. Lifestyle, such
    as diet and lack of exercise, is also to blame.

    The problem is coming into sharpest focus in places such as
    California's Bay Area, where Indians are the fastest growing of all
    Asian groups. But there are 1.6 million Indians sprinkled all over the
    United States who are also at risk. Because the population is
    scattered, researchers say it is difficult to study the problem fully
    or raise awareness among doctors and within communities.

    The elevated risk of heart disease often catches many Indians off
    guard. Generally, their overall cholesterol levels have been normal.
    High blood pressure isn't prevalent in the community. Smoking rates
    are low. And about half are vegetarians.

    Knowing that doing many of the right things to prevent the disease
    still might not be enough, "It does make you afraid," said Mr. Rao, a
    Yuba City sandwich shop owner who immigrated from India nearly three
    decades ago. His father has been battling heart problems for years.

    "A lot of people, they just feel they look healthy, they feel healthy,"
    and so they don't get tested for heart disease, Mr. Rao said. "By the
    time some of them find out they have it, they're either in an
    ambulance or a hospital bed."

    As lifestyles change in India, heart disease is hitting epidemic
    proportions there - and also among Indo-Americans - with more than 10
    percent of urban Indians now suffering from the disease. Over the past
    three decades, coronary artery disease rates have declined by half in
    many developed countries, but have more than doubled in India,
    according to the Coronary Artery Disease among Asian Indians Research
    Foundation. Rates are significantly higher in urban regions of India
    than in rural ones.

    This helps dispel the theory that a Western lifestyle is entirely to
    blame for the problem among immigrants, some scientists believe. Dining
    on greasy fast food and adopting a couch-potato lifestyle can certainly
    make the situation worse, they said. But other factors clearly are at
    play.

    "Genetics load the gun. Environment pulls the trigger," said Dr. Enas
    A. Enas, director of the research foundation.

    That is all the more reason why Indo-Americans need to be aggressive
    about preventing heart disease. Parents should be sure to start their
    children on health diets and exercise programs when they're as young
    as age 2, Enas said.

    "If you have a loaded gun and you don't pull the trigger, no harm is
    done."

    Viren Venkat, 66, knows first-hand the importance of a healthy
    lifestyle. The Sunnyvale resident experienced his first heart attack
    when he was only 44. His oldest brother, Surendra, had one at 48.
    Another brother, Narendra, had one at 47.

    They were all busy business executives, and none of them got much
    exercise, he conceded, but they were still surprised to suffer heart
    problems at such an early age.

    At the time of Venkat's first attack, he lived in Bombay and worked
    as a record executive in India. His staff included a gardener, a
    chauffeur and a cook. Venkat didn't even have to carry his briefcase
    to his car in the morning.

    Like many Indians and Indo-Americans, he ate heavier food cooked in
    ghee, or clarified butter. Doctors recommend that foods be cooked in
    olive oil instead.

    Enas is convinced that high heart disease rates are partially
    attributable to what he calls an "influence of affluence," which could
    help explain the higher rates in urban India versus rural regions.
    Research into this theory is still ongoing, but Enas points to the
    highly automated lifestyle that is enjoyed in urban areas.

    "Indians are Silicon Valley high-tech execs. What do they do? They do
    not exercise. How do they go to work? By car," Enas said.

    The Berkeley researchers believe that the children and grandchildren of
    Indian immigrants could be at the highest risk for heart problems,
    given their lifestyle as children is much more inactive than their
    parents' tended be. The scientists, who looked at more than 300
    Indo-Americans living in Yuba City and Alameda and Contra Costa
    counties, anticipate the phenomena won't be visible, however, for a
    few more years.

    "We haven't hit the big wave of second- and third-generation"
    Indo-Americans, Ivey said. "Indians are more at risk when they're put
    in a Western environment."

    *************

    The Indian Paradox: a supposed heart-healthy vegetarian diet and they
    have the highest heart diseases rate in the world.

    The mainstream medical response: blame it on every thing else except
    the diet, call it a paradox, and start prescribing pills and surgery
    and start making some serious money.

    TC

  8. TC, do you even read the stuff you post?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The higher rates of heart attacks in Indians worldwide are accompanied


    by paradoxically low rates of conventional risk factors: hypertension,
    obesity, cigarette smoking and cholesterol levels. <<

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Indians differ from other ethnic groups in the following ways:


    * Higher prevalence of abdominal obesity, glucose intolerance, insulin
    resistance and diabetes.
    * Higher prevalence of emerging clot-promoting risk factors.
    * Higher prevalence of cardiodysmetabolic syndrome (consisting of
    abdominal obesity, high tryiglycerides, low HDL, glucose intolerance,
    hyperinsulinemia and hypertension). <<

    COMMENT:
    Please note that these quotes largely contradict each other. Diabetes
    is a well-known cardiovascular risk factor, and so is abdominal
    obesity, high triglycerides, low HDL and hypertension.

    Further on:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    One of the world's foremost epidemiologists of cardiovascular disease,


    Yusuf once championed the idea that ethnicity was a significant
    determinant of heart disease, but his recent research has convinced him

    otherwise. "By and large, the differences in heart-disease rates are
    because of different lifestyles," he says. "About 80% of the risk can
    be accounted for by known risk factors like smoking or obesity or blood

    pressure and the way we live and eat, which leaves very little room for

    genetic risk factors." <<

    COMMENT:

    Well, if "About 80% of the risk can be accounted for by known risk
    factors like smoking or obesity or blood
    pressure and the way we live and eat," then that leaves just 20% for
    the big "paradox." Not very impressive. So which is it?

    Even the quoted storylet has problems:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    At the time of Venkat's first attack, he lived in Bombay and worked


    as a record executive in India. His staff included a gardener, a
    chauffeur and a cook. Venkat didn't even have to carry his briefcase
    to his car in the morning.
    Like many Indians and Indo-Americans, he ate heavier food cooked in
    ghee, or clarified butter. Doctors recommend that foods be cooked in
    olive oil instead.<<

    COMMENT:

    The guy never exercised and lived on clarified butter. Then had a heart
    attack. Amazing! SUCH a paradox.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The Indian Paradox: a supposed heart-healthy vegetarian diet and they


    have the highest heart diseases rate in the world. <<

    COMMENT:

    It's NOT a supposed heart-healthy vegetarian diet if it's full of
    clarified butter.

    Back in the bad old days of the Joslin high fat treatment for diabetes,
    they used to treat diabetics with an Atkins-like diet which had things
    like a breakfast of 10 pats of butter, and a little bit of toast.
    "Carbohydrates made for sugar and sugar was bad," was the mantra. The
    Joslin diet controlled diabetes, all right. But it wasn't long before
    somebody found that these diabetics weren't dying of diabetes any more
    on this diet. They were dying of heart attacks. This was half a century
    ago. It's not news.

    SBH

  9. Sbharrisatsignix.netcom.com said:

    TC, do you even read the stuff you post?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The higher rates of heart attacks in Indians worldwide are accompanied


    by paradoxically low rates of conventional risk factors: hypertension,
    obesity, cigarette smoking and cholesterol levels. <<

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Indians differ from other ethnic groups in the following ways:


    * Higher prevalence of abdominal obesity, glucose intolerance, insulin
    resistance and diabetes.
    * Higher prevalence of emerging clot-promoting risk factors.
    * Higher prevalence of cardiodysmetabolic syndrome (consisting of
    abdominal obesity, high tryiglycerides, low HDL, glucose intolerance,
    hyperinsulinemia and hypertension). <<

    COMMENT:
    Please note that these quotes largely contradict each other. Diabetes
    is a well-known cardiovascular risk factor, and so is abdominal
    obesity, high triglycerides, low HDL and hypertension.

    Further on:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    One of the world's foremost epidemiologists of cardiovascular disease,


    Yusuf once championed the idea that ethnicity was a significant
    determinant of heart disease, but his recent research has convinced him

    otherwise. "By and large, the differences in heart-disease rates are
    because of different lifestyles," he says. "About 80% of the risk can
    be accounted for by known risk factors like smoking or obesity or blood

    pressure and the way we live and eat, which leaves very little room for

    genetic risk factors." <<

    COMMENT:

    Well, if "About 80% of the risk can be accounted for by known risk
    factors like smoking or obesity or blood
    pressure and the way we live and eat," then that leaves just 20% for
    the big "paradox." Not very impressive. So which is it?

    Even the quoted storylet has problems:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    At the time of Venkat's first attack, he lived in Bombay and worked


    as a record executive in India. His staff included a gardener, a
    chauffeur and a cook. Venkat didn't even have to carry his briefcase
    to his car in the morning.
    Like many Indians and Indo-Americans, he ate heavier food cooked in
    ghee, or clarified butter. Doctors recommend that foods be cooked in
    olive oil instead.<<

    COMMENT:

    The guy never exercised and lived on clarified butter. Then had a heart
    attack. Amazing! SUCH a paradox.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The Indian Paradox: a supposed heart-healthy vegetarian diet and they


    have the highest heart diseases rate in the world. <<

    COMMENT:

    It's NOT a supposed heart-healthy vegetarian diet if it's full of
    clarified butter.

    Back in the bad old days of the Joslin high fat treatment for diabetes,
    they used to treat diabetics with an Atkins-like diet which had things
    like a breakfast of 10 pats of butter, and a little bit of toast.
    "Carbohydrates made for sugar and sugar was bad," was the mantra. The
    Joslin diet controlled diabetes, all right. But it wasn't long before
    somebody found that these diabetics weren't dying of diabetes any more
    on this diet. They were dying of heart attacks. This was half a century
    ago. It's not news.

    SBH

    If you had read what I posted you would have noted the incredible
    variety of views on what is supposed to cause heart disease and what
    doesn't and the wide variety of "paradoxes" seen in the real world.
    With everyone speculating about the possible causes of the increased
    incidences of heart disease, it seem no-one is even questioning the
    diet, ie. vegetarianism.

    They ascribe the problem to genetics, and if that doesn't explain it
    they ascribe it to sedentariness, and if that doesn't fit they ascribe
    it to the ghee, and if that doesn't fit then they ascribe it to
    cholesterol etc etc and if it still doesn't fit they call it a paradox
    and prescribe the cholesterol reducing drugs and the blood thinning
    drugs and more and more drugs, nd if that doesn't work the operate and
    bypass their arteries. No one gets healthy except for the doctors
    wallets.

    You keep talking about the evils of ghee, but the Masai that ate a
    primarily dairy based diet had no such high incidence of heart disease.
    There is no credible science to link heart disease to butter oe any
    animal fat, I challenge you to show some credible science to back that
    up.

    The point I am making is that a primarily vegetarian group has very
    high incidences of heart disease and when they become "westernized" and
    they continue eating vegetarian they get even worse. Is it the fat
    causing the jump or is it the greater access to more refined carbs in
    their vegetarian diet?

    Heart disease is more of a nutrient deficiency condition then it is a
    condition caused by too much of a certain nutrient. The B vitamins and
    vitamin C and collagen in the diet has more impact on the health of the
    cardio-pulmonary system than any suggested excess of any fat.

    The fact is that a vegetarian whole-food diet(as in India) will not
    provide good enough nutrition for proper cardio health. Switch some of
    the carbs to refined westernized carbs and their cardio health will get
    even worse. That is the pattern.

    Vegetarians have weak and damaged arteries due to their poor diets and
    the lack of the right nutrients that are primarily gotten from animal
    sources, and the first arteries to go will be the ones that move the
    most and get the most physical stress, and those are the heart
    arteries.

    When the artery walls become compromised the improperly fed body tries
    to repair the damage with fatty deposits which become plaque. It is
    caused by a nutritional deficiency not by some as-yet-unproven and
    unknown effect of fat in the system.

    TC

  10. Quoted message said:

    Eating grains, especially whole grains, provides health benefits. People
    who eat whole grains as part of a healthy diet have a reduced risk of some
    chronic diseases. Grains provide many nutrients that are vital for the
    health and maintenance of our bodies.

    They forgot to mention the benefits to the farmers and lobbyists.

  11. 455 said:
    Quoted message said:

    Eating grains, especially whole grains, provides health benefits. People
    who eat whole grains as part of a healthy diet have a reduced risk of some
    chronic diseases. Grains provide many nutrients that are vital for the
    health and maintenance of our bodies.

    They forgot to mention the benefits to the farmers and lobbyists.

    And benefits to Archer Daniels Midland, Monsanto, Kellogg, Kraft, etc.

    TC

  12. What I would like to know is what causes so much gas, so to speak? The
    traditional indian diet had one of the lowest rates of cvd and diabetes in
    the world until a couple of decades ago. That rat didn't go from bad to
    worst by changing the amount of carbs eaten, it went from good to worst by
    eating more fats, more calories, and by lowering physical activity. The
    low risk rates still exist in mostly rural areas where the shift has not
    been made. Most of be below is a pointless exercise in begging the
    question and could be countered with research support, but with same
    seldom forthcoming why bother. Who could possibly counter what is created
    so easily and cheaply?

    Quoted message said:

    If you had read what I posted you would have noted the incredible
    variety of views on what is supposed to cause heart disease and what
    doesn't and the wide variety of "paradoxes" seen in the real world.
    With everyone speculating about the possible causes of the increased
    incidences of heart disease, it seem no-one is even questioning the
    diet, ie. vegetarianism.

    They ascribe the problem to genetics, and if that doesn't explain it
    they ascribe it to sedentariness, and if that doesn't fit they ascribe
    it to the ghee, and if that doesn't fit then they ascribe it to
    cholesterol etc etc and if it still doesn't fit they call it a paradox
    and prescribe the cholesterol reducing drugs and the blood thinning
    drugs and more and more drugs, nd if that doesn't work the operate and
    bypass their arteries. No one gets healthy except for the doctors
    wallets.

    You keep talking about the evils of ghee, but the Masai that ate a
    primarily dairy based diet had no such high incidence of heart disease.
    There is no credible science to link heart disease to butter oe any
    animal fat, I challenge you to show some credible science to back that
    up.

    The point I am making is that a primarily vegetarian group has very
    high incidences of heart disease and when they become "westernized" and
    they continue eating vegetarian they get even worse. Is it the fat
    causing the jump or is it the greater access to more refined carbs in
    their vegetarian diet?

    Heart disease is more of a nutrient deficiency condition then it is a
    condition caused by too much of a certain nutrient. The B vitamins and
    vitamin C and collagen in the diet has more impact on the health of the
    cardio-pulmonary system than any suggested excess of any fat.

    The fact is that a vegetarian whole-food diet(as in India) will not
    provide good enough nutrition for proper cardio health. Switch some of
    the carbs to refined westernized carbs and their cardio health will get
    even worse. That is the pattern.

    Vegetarians have weak and damaged arteries due to their poor diets and
    the lack of the right nutrients that are primarily gotten from animal
    sources, and the first arteries to go will be the ones that move the
    most and get the most physical stress, and those are the heart
    arteries.

    When the artery walls become compromised the improperly fed body tries
    to repair the damage with fatty deposits which become plaque. It is
    caused by a nutritional deficiency not by some as-yet-unproven and
    unknown effect of fat in the system.

    TC

  13. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The traditional indian diet had one of the lowest rates of cvd and diabetes in


    the world until a couple of decades ago. That rat didn't go from bad
    to
    worst by changing the amount of carbs eaten, it went from good to worst
    by
    eating more fats, more calories, and by lowering physical activity. <<

    COMMENT:

    I think your reasoning is sound. "Westernization" of diets always adds
    more fat than carbohydrates, and the fat that it does add, is low in
    omega-3 (n-3) simply due to cost considerations. It's realtively hard
    to get n-3 PUFAs relative to other fats and oils, and once you have
    them, it's hard to keep them from spoiling. Industrial society runs on
    hydrogenated veg oil and it *systematically* remove w-3s from the diet
    at every opportunity. To hear TC talk, you'd think the same thing
    happens with vitamin C and other micronutrients. Sorry, but in our
    vitamin charged fortified world, that just ain't true. Read the
    MacDonald's Menu, or the the one at In an Out or Burger King or
    whatever. Vitamins added everyplace. Omega-3's--- nowhere.

  14. Sbharrisatsignix.netcom.com said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The traditional indian diet had one of the lowest rates of cvd and diabetes in


    the world until a couple of decades ago. That rat didn't go from bad
    to
    worst by changing the amount of carbs eaten, it went from good to worst
    by
    eating more fats, more calories, and by lowering physical activity. <<

    COMMENT:

    I think your reasoning is sound. "Westernization" of diets always adds
    more fat than carbohydrates, and the fat that it does add, is low in
    omega-3 (n-3) simply due to cost considerations. It's realtively hard
    to get n-3 PUFAs relative to other fats and oils, and once you have
    them, it's hard to keep them from spoiling. Industrial society runs on
    hydrogenated veg oil and it *systematically* remove w-3s from the diet
    at every opportunity. To hear TC talk, you'd think the same thing
    happens with vitamin C and other micronutrients. Sorry, but in our
    vitamin charged fortified world, that just ain't true. Read the
    MacDonald's Menu, or the the one at In an Out or Burger King or
    whatever. Vitamins added everyplace. Omega-3's--- nowhere.

    Reasoning based on what? Hearsay? Do you guys have anything to back
    these assertions? Data? Studies? Statistical trends? Anything at all?

    TC

  15. [email hidden] wrote:
    :: What I would like to know is what causes so much gas, so to speak?
    :: The traditional indian diet had one of the lowest rates of cvd and
    :: diabetes in the world until a couple of decades ago. That rat
    :: didn't go from bad to worst by changing the amount of carbs eaten,
    :: it went from good to worst by eating more fats, more calories, and
    :: by lowering physical activity. The low risk rates still exist in
    :: mostly rural areas where the shift has not been made. Most of be
    :: below is a pointless exercise in begging the question and could be
    :: countered with research support, but with same seldom forthcoming
    :: why bother. Who could possibly counter what is created so easily
    :: and cheaply?

    From your own posting I suspect that the CVD has not increased because of
    higher fat intake, but rather because of change in the quality of fat:

    Effects of an Indo-Mediterranean Diet on the Omega­6/Omega­3 Ratio in
    Patients at High Risk of Coronary Artery Disease: The Indian Paradox
    Daniel Pella [et al.] [...]
    Coronary artery disease (CAD) has become a major health problem in the
    Western world, and is rapidly increasing in the developing countries,
    accompanied by rapid changes in diet and lifestyle [1­3]. The prevalence of
    CAD is 2­3% in rural areas and 9­14% in urban populations of India [2, 3].
    This finding is associated with a lower total fat intake in rural areas
    compared to urban ones (10­15 vs. 15­27 en %/day, respectively) [2­4]. The
    paradox is that despite low fat intake relative to Western countries, the
    urban population has a high prevalence of CAD. The rural population in north
    and east India consumes more mustard oil and grains, which are considered a
    poor man's food. In urban areas, Indian ghee (clarified butter rich in
    cholesterol oxide [5]), vegetable ghee, butter, cream, refined oils and
    refined bread and flour are substituted for mustard oils and whole grains,
    resulting in marked changes in the omega­6/ omega­3 ratio of urban diets
    [2­4]. The cause of the Indian paradox can be explained by the increased
    ratio of omega­6/omega­3 fatty acids in the urban diets. The dietary changes
    described are more pronounced in patients with high risk of CAD [4, 6­11].
    It is possible that decreased consumption of omega­3 fatty acids may
    increase the coronary risk among urban subjects and in patients with CAD.

    ::: If you had read what I posted you would have noted the incredible
    ::: variety of views on what is supposed to cause heart disease and what
    ::: doesn't and the wide variety of "paradoxes" seen in the real world.
    ::: With everyone speculating about the possible causes of the increased
    ::: incidences of heart disease, it seem no-one is even questioning the
    ::: diet, ie. vegetarianism.
    :::
    ::: They ascribe the problem to genetics, and if that doesn't explain it
    ::: they ascribe it to sedentariness, and if that doesn't fit they
    ::: ascribe it to the ghee, and if that doesn't fit then they ascribe
    ::: it to cholesterol etc etc and if it still doesn't fit they call it
    ::: a paradox and prescribe the cholesterol reducing drugs and the
    ::: blood thinning drugs and more and more drugs, nd if that doesn't
    ::: work the operate and bypass their arteries. No one gets healthy
    ::: except for the doctors wallets.
    :::
    ::: You keep talking about the evils of ghee, but the Masai that ate a
    ::: primarily dairy based diet had no such high incidence of heart
    ::: disease. There is no credible science to link heart disease to
    ::: butter oe any animal fat, I challenge you to show some credible
    ::: science to back that up.
    :::
    ::: The point I am making is that a primarily vegetarian group has very
    ::: high incidences of heart disease and when they become "westernized"
    ::: and they continue eating vegetarian they get even worse. Is it the
    ::: fat causing the jump or is it the greater access to more refined
    ::: carbs in their vegetarian diet?
    :::
    ::: Heart disease is more of a nutrient deficiency condition then it is
    ::: a condition caused by too much of a certain nutrient. The B
    ::: vitamins and vitamin C and collagen in the diet has more impact on
    ::: the health of the cardio-pulmonary system than any suggested excess
    ::: of any fat.
    :::
    ::: The fact is that a vegetarian whole-food diet(as in India) will not
    ::: provide good enough nutrition for proper cardio health. Switch some
    ::: of the carbs to refined westernized carbs and their cardio health
    ::: will get even worse. That is the pattern.
    :::
    ::: Vegetarians have weak and damaged arteries due to their poor diets
    ::: and the lack of the right nutrients that are primarily gotten from
    ::: animal sources, and the first arteries to go will be the ones that
    ::: move the most and get the most physical stress, and those are the
    ::: heart arteries.
    :::
    ::: When the artery walls become compromised the improperly fed body
    ::: tries to repair the damage with fatty deposits which become plaque.
    ::: It is caused by a nutritional deficiency not by some
    ::: as-yet-unproven and unknown effect of fat in the system.
    :::
    ::: TC

    --
    Juhana

  16. "Reasoning based on what? Hearsay? Do you guys have anything to back these
    assertions? Data? Studies? Statistical trends? Anything at all?"

    Ah, you presented yourself as knowing about if not an expert on the indian
    paradox, most basic of which is the observsation that traditional risk
    factors for the traditional high carb indian diet had one of the best
    rates of cvd and diabetes, and that it changed, which is the foundation of
    the paradox. It would be very easy to show support for this history and
    every point made about it. You said that an example of a hindu and muslim
    village showing the high carb traditional diet was not good is not yet
    forthcoming, with which you confused and confounded the indian paradox
    idea which issomething different.

  17. Quoted message said:

    "Reasoning based on what? Hearsay? Do you guys have anything to back these
    assertions? Data? Studies? Statistical trends? Anything at all?"

    Ah, you presented yourself as knowing about if not an expert on the indian
    paradox, most basic of which is the observsation that traditional risk
    factors for the traditional high carb indian diet had one of the best
    rates of cvd and diabetes, and that it changed, which is the foundation of
    the paradox. It would be very easy to show support for this history and
    every point made about it. You said that an example of a hindu and muslim
    village showing the high carb traditional diet was not good is not yet
    forthcoming, with which you confused and confounded the indian paradox
    idea which issomething different.

    So you have nothing to back up your nonsensical ramblings.Just as I
    thought.

    TC

  18. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    McDonald's uses soybean and canola oils, both of which contain adequate amounts


    of Omega-3. But too much Omega-6. <<

    COMMENT:

    Ahem. What a misleading comment, and if you know enough to know what
    you said above, you know enough to know how misleading it is. This is a
    recent change (circa 2003 for McDonalds), and certainly would not show
    up on anything epidemological. McDonald's went public in 1965. For two
    generations and more they've cooked everything in the same stuff
    everybody else in the fast food business has--- partically hydrogenated
    soybean and cottonseed oil. That doesn't make them evil, but let's
    state the plain facts.

    SBH

  19. The sign in Canada's McDonalds says "Beef Tallow"

    "Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    McDonald's uses soybean and canola oils, both of which contain adequate


    amounts

    Quoted message said:

    of Omega-3. But too much Omega-6. <<

    COMMENT:

    Ahem. What a misleading comment, and if you know enough to know what
    you said above, you know enough to know how misleading it is. This is a
    recent change (circa 2003 for McDonalds), and certainly would not show
    up on anything epidemological. McDonald's went public in 1965. For two
    generations and more they've cooked everything in the same stuff
    everybody else in the fast food business has--- partically hydrogenated
    soybean and cottonseed oil. That doesn't make them evil, but let's
    state the plain facts.

    SBH

  20. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The sign in Canada's McDonalds says "Beef Tallow" <<

    Yes. But prior to 2003 when the anti-trans fat people finally got to
    McDonalds, the sign wouldn't have said anything. Because McDonalds was
    using whatever they thought was cheapest and tasted okay.

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