Why condemn Tyler so fast?

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Ronde Chump, Sep 23, 2004.

  1. Ronde Chump

    Ronde Chump Guest

    Just an observation about this Tyler deal, and the state of cycling in
    general........

    Why is everyone (in this NG especially) so quick to point the finger and
    declare Tyler a cheater? The only thing we know for sure is that WADA has
    created a test that shows when 2 different types of blood cells are in
    someone's body. WADA, the IOC and all of the other ADA organizations see
    everything in black and white only. Positive test (for whatever they feel like
    testing) = cheater. And like idiots, cycling fans start throwing out their
    souvenirs from their favorite rider that they now think is a cheat.

    News flash: WADA doesn't care about finding out the truth, only about creating
    stories. Without knowing the science behind the tests, and how far back into a
    person's life the test detects a "positive" result, we don't really know sh1t.
    It ain't over until the process is completed.

    With all of the new test that WADA says they are developing, that is, not based
    on the finding of a specific chemical, we should take it all with a grain of
    salt. Until the process is complete, that is. What is more worrisome is the
    fact that these tests are becoming much more invasive and personal, and based
    on statistics and human biology. How far will it go? Maybe they should do DNA
    tests on everyone to determine if they had good parents, if so, maybe those
    athletes should be banned also! Some athletes produce high levels of
    hematocits, high testosterone, have large lung capacities, or sleep better than
    others when they travel. Should they be banned?

    I have a big issue (privacy) with the direction that all of this testing is
    going. Why should cyclists' personal medical histories be public knowledge?
    What other profession requires this of their members? We would all be up in
    arms if we went to work in a factory and the employer asked us to give a blood
    test to see if we had any "abnormalities". Maybe our health insurer should
    just drop us completely because a relative died of cancer.

    I also have had a hrd time trying to figure out why cycling fans (at least
    those on this NG) will spend more time and effort denigrating Tyler, and
    others, before we even know for sure that anything has happened, and that he in
    fact may have cheated. I can't think of any other sport that has fans that do
    this. Most professional sports don't even know what the hell they are doing
    when it comes to anti-doping, and care less about performance enhancement then
    they do about recreational drugs. Pro athletes (non-cycling) that get caught
    committing murder are treated better than a cyclist that has tested positive.
    Why does a baseball player that gets caught with cocaine for the 100th time get
    criticised for the sole reason that his jail time "may be a distraction" to
    him, but cycling fans are ready to sell their own down the river for something
    has not yet even been proven through the process?????

    Don't even get me started on the fact that right now, Tyler, the UCI, and
    Phonak are the only ones in the world that should even know about this affair.
    We shouldn't even be discussing this, nevermind debating it, until (and if)
    WADA issues a sanction.

    Just my .02
     
    Tags:


  2. Ken Prager

    Ken Prager Guest

    [email protected] (Ronde Chump) wrote:

    > Just an observation about this Tyler deal, and the state of cycling in
    > general........
    >
    >
    >
    > News flash: WADA doesn't care about finding out the truth, only about
    > creating stories.
    >
    > [lot's of sane stuff snipped]
    >
    > Don't even get me started on the fact that right now, Tyler, the UCI, and
    > Phonak are the only ones in the world that should even know about this
    > affair.
    > We shouldn't even be discussing this, nevermind debating it, until (and if)
    > WADA issues a sanction.
    >
    > Just my .02


    Agreed!

    --
    Remove _me_ for e-mail address
     
  3. antoineg

    antoineg New Member

    Joined:
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    Um. Because he failed an "A" and "B" test at the Vuelta, and in all likelihood would have failed the Olympics test too if they hadn't damaged the "B" sample?
    No, they created a test that would find homologous blood doping.

    Damn straight!

    Your opinion only, which doesn't frankly mean a lot. I beg to differ.

    Have you even read ONE of the many websites that go into detail about how the test works, how far back it is useful for, what it can and can not detect, etc.? You're retarded.

    The fat lady has sung. The only question now is whether Hamilton will appeal, and on what grounds.

    Have you ever heard of "straw man"? Straw Man, meet Mr. Chump.

    Because if we don't aggressively fight drug cheats, every cyclist will feel job pressure to inject themselves with loads of dangerous drugs just in order to make a living?

    Most Olympic sports, to name just a few dozen or so.

    You don't have to be a professional cyclist. It's your choice if you want to play by the rules.

    There's that pesky little Straw Man again. This is apropos of nothing.

    I don't know about you, but I also think it stinks when other pro sports let drug cheats (even recreational drug cheats) off lightly. So your argument for me, sums up to about zero.

    I want the drug cheats out of cycling, period. I want this to be a test of talent, hard work, and tactics, not a pharmaceutical race to the bottom.

    Don't even get me started on the fact that right now, Tyler, the UCI, and
    Phonak are the only ones in the world that should even know about this affair.
    We shouldn't even be discussing this, nevermind debating it, until (and if)
    WADA issues a sanction.

    Just my .02[/QUOTE]
     
  4. On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 17:24:30 +1000, antoineg wrote:
    > I don't know about you


    I appreciated that you liked my little "ternary" joke, but PLEASE USE A
    REAL NEWS READER!! This is not a web board, this is a newsgroup. It's
    supposed to be in its own realm, on news servers. Cyclingmoronsdotcom
    uses a web gateway to grab our free public discussion for generating ad
    revenue. And they invite people to quote really really badly.

    Go have a look at http://www.individual.net/ for a free news server,
    that you may use with a free reader like http://www.getthunderbird.com/
    or http://www.forteinc.com/agent/download.php or even Outlook Express
    but *with* http://email.about.com/cs/oepluginreviews/gr/oe-quotefix.htm

    Thanks.
     
  5. [email protected] (Ronde Chump) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Just an observation about this Tyler deal, and the state of cycling in
    > general........
    >
    > Why is everyone (in this NG especially) so quick to point the finger and
    > declare Tyler a cheater?


    Too be at the head of the herd. Moo.
     
  6. Sierraman

    Sierraman Guest

    "antoineg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]

    I want the drug cheats out of cycling, period. I want this to be a
    test of talent, hard work, and tactics, not a pharmaceutical race to
    the bottom.

    Well said.
     
  7. Ray

    Ray Guest

    [email protected] (Ronde Chump) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Just an observation about this Tyler deal, and the state of cycling in
    > general........
    >
    >

    <skip>


    >
    > Don't even get me started on the fact that right now, Tyler, the UCI, and
    > Phonak are the only ones in the world that should even know about this ffair.
    > We shouldn't even be discussing this, nevermind debating it, until (and if)
    > WADA issues a sanction.
    >



    You got it right. The UCI has a policy of not disclosing
    inconclusive test results. However, Tyler's are all over every
    where. Now who is the cheater? In my opinion its the UCI. The UCI
    has violated the rule prohibiting disclosure. Aren't the guardians
    held to higher standards than those they monitor? I surely think they
    ought to be. When the guardians can not even comply with rules of
    their own making, why should I have any confidence in them?

    But then, I lost faith in bureaucrats long ago.

    ray
     
  8. Ronde Chump

    Ronde Chump Guest

    Agreed, Yep, the authorities are supposed to be above reproach....but guess
    what, they

    are only interested in their own agenda, not the truth. Once the damage is
    done

    it cannot be reversed, but they can skate because they have no legal
    culpability

    (the athletes give blood/urine voluntarily). How many news stories carried the


    Tyler news? How many will devote the same amount of time to it if/when he's

    cleared?

    I just read the D'Antoni news, and a post by j-dash-me complaining about lost

    prize money that D'Antoni won during the year, even after a positive A test. I


    thought that j-dash-me knew what he was talking about but that's not the case.

    The B sample was most likely done a few weeks after the A test. The only thing


    that the B test does, is make sure that the case moves forward through USADA,

    nothing else.

    I, for one, would not want to tell a rider thay he/she can't race until the
    case

    is resolved. It usually takes months, even years to get a final resolution.

    Who's going to pay that athlete for all of the lost earnings (current and

    future), endorsements, prizes, etc. if he/she is eventually cleared? The only

    difference between a cheater and a non-cheater could be as simple as a doctor's


    note. Under the rules, if you take athsma medicine and test positive for it,

    the only reason its not a doping violation is because you filed a TUE. If you

    didn't file a TUE, then you must be a cheater. I'm also still not convinced

    that USADA's EPO test is a good one. Contrary to what they have us believing,

    they don't actually detect EPO. What they detect is the probability the EPO
    may

    have been used, based on the number of misformed blood cells. Without being a

    scientist, I can't say for certain that EPO is the only reason for misformed

    blood cells, or not.

    Another fact; the riders on TT1/2 teams have to record all of their medicines

    and have a doctor's siggnature, prescriptions, doses, how long, etc. in their

    health booklet, as well as submit at least 4 blood test to the UCI each year.

    The UCI tracks all of this so that there's a history and baseline measurements

    for each rider. TT3 riders don't have to do this. That means that only the

    riders on US Postal and Navigators are doing this. Why don't all the teams do

    it? Makes you wonder why some riders don't want to ride on a higher level team,


    all the while telling everyone that they can't get a job on a better team, even


    though they are the best in the country......

    Hey, how about Geanvieve? Many others have paid a high price for skipping dope

    tests, but during her defense she was able to prove that she missed it because

    she was upset. Sometimes there's a perfectly good explanation, and it is

    encouraging to see that USADA will take the time to listen.


    I feel really bad for Tyler, because he's really fuxed on this. The only thing


    that WADA knows is that he has 2 types of blood cells. They don't care about

    why, how or when.....all they care about is that their rules say they can call

    him a cheater. It scares me to know that not only do they make the rules, you

    cannot fight to change them, even if they are completely ass-backwards. Under

    WADA, you are guilty until you can prove that you're innocent. How does one

    prove that 2 types of blood cells are not the result of blood-boosting? How

    many people just happen to have old vials of blood sitting in their fridge just


    in case WADA calls? Isn't it possible that the anti-doping bodys are not God?


    Maybe their sh1t does stink (how about that frozen blood?).

    The WADA rules are almost a self-fulfilling prophecy in that it is almost

    impossible to prove innocence after the fact. Throw in the fact that most

    athletes (especially cyclists) don't have the resources to mount a legal

    defense, so it's cheaper and easier to just take the suspension and get a real

    job. WADA and USADA rely on this fact to build their stature. Until they are

    challenged in a real court, for things like lost income, defamation of

    character, etc. How much do you think Simoni lost when he was stripped of the

    pink jersey in the Giro? In addition to losing his lead, his team was

    un-invited from LeTour. Throw a few American Labor Lawyers at that case!

    As for the D'Antoni thing, yeah it sucks to lose to a cheater, but its still

    better to give the benefit of doubt until the fat lady sings. Destroying the

    career of just one innocent rider is a lot worse than having some cheaters slip


    through the cracks. The system needs to be changed...the process has to move

    more quickly so that the cheaters are off the street in less time.

    In their zeal to root out the cheaters, I think the anti-doping bodys

    (WADA/USADA/IOC) need to take a more measured look at their philosophy of

    tainting all athletes as cheaters, unless they can prove otherwise, and perhaps


    consider that maybe statistics aren't the answer.

    Just more ramblings.....Chump
     
  9. >
    > But then, I lost faith in bureaucrats long ago.


    FAITH? in the exact ppl that turn us against each other for selfish benefit?

    It's our "leaders" that turn us against each other.

    How much better off would we be without Saddam, or W.?
    One's just a more toxic version of the same narcissistic insanity.

    Muhammad Ali: " I ain't go nothing against them Viet Cong."
     
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