Why condemn Tyler so fast?

[Ronde Chump]

Just an observation about this Tyler deal, and the state of cycling in
general........

Why is everyone (in this NG especially) so quick to point the finger and
declare Tyler a cheater? The only thing we know for sure is that WADA has
created a test that shows when 2 different types of blood cells are in
someone's body. WADA, the IOC and all of the other ADA organizations see
everything in black and white only. Positive test (for whatever they feel like
testing) = cheater. And like idiots, cycling fans start throwing out their
souvenirs from their favorite rider that they now think is a cheat.

News flash: WADA doesn't care about finding out the truth, only about creating
stories. Without knowing the science behind the tests, and how far back into a
person's life the test detects a "positive" result, we don't really know sh1t.
It ain't over until the process is completed.

With all of the new test that WADA says they are developing, that is, not based
on the finding of a specific chemical, we should take it all with a grain of
salt. Until the process is complete, that is. What is more worrisome is the
fact that these tests are becoming much more invasive and personal, and based
on statistics and human biology. How far will it go? Maybe they should do DNA
tests on everyone to determine if they had good parents, if so, maybe those
athletes should be banned also! Some athletes produce high levels of
hematocits, high testosterone, have large lung capacities, or sleep better than
others when they travel. Should they be banned?

I have a big issue (privacy) with the direction that all of this testing is
going. Why should cyclists' personal medical histories be public knowledge?
What other profession requires this of their members? We would all be up in
arms if we went to work in a factory and the employer asked us to give a blood
test to see if we had any "abnormalities". Maybe our health insurer should
just drop us completely because a relative died of cancer.

I also have had a hrd time trying to figure out why cycling fans (at least
those on this NG) will spend more time and effort denigrating Tyler, and
others, before we even know for sure that anything has happened, and that he in
fact may have cheated. I can't think of any other sport that has fans that do
this. Most professional sports don't even know what the hell they are doing
when it comes to anti-doping, and care less about performance enhancement then
they do about recreational drugs. Pro athletes (non-cycling) that get caught
committing murder are treated better than a cyclist that has tested positive.
Why does a baseball player that gets caught with cocaine for the 100th time get
criticised for the sole reason that his jail time "may be a distraction" to
him, but cycling fans are ready to sell their own down the river for something
has not yet even been proven through the process?????

Don't even get me started on the fact that right now, Tyler, the UCI, and
Phonak are the only ones in the world that should even know about this affair.
We shouldn't even be discussing this, nevermind debating it, until (and if)
WADA issues a sanction.

Just my .02

 

[Ken Prager]

[email protected] (Ronde Chump) wrote:

> Just an observation about this Tyler deal, and the state of cycling in
> general........
>
>
>
> News flash: WADA doesn't care about finding out the truth, only about
> creating stories.
>
> [lot's of sane stuff snipped]
>
> Don't even get me started on the fact that right now, Tyler, the UCI, and
> Phonak are the only ones in the world that should even know about this
> affair.
> We shouldn't even be discussing this, nevermind debating it, until (and if)
> WADA issues a sanction.
>
> Just my .02

Agreed!

--
Remove _me_ for e-mail address

 

[antoineg]

Why is everyone (in this NG especially) so quick to point the finger and declare Tyler a cheater?

Um. Because he failed an "A" and "B" test at the Vuelta, and in all likelihood would have failed the Olympics test too if they hadn't damaged the "B" sample?

The only thing we know for sure is that WADA has
created a test that shows when 2 different types of blood cells are in
someone's body.

No, they created a test that would find homologous blood doping.

WADA, the IOC and all of the other ADA organizations see everything in black and white only. Positive test (for whatever they feel like testing) = cheater.

Damn straight!

News flash: WADA doesn't care about finding out the truth, only about creating stories.

Your opinion only, which doesn't frankly mean a lot. I beg to differ.

Without knowing the science behind the tests, and how far back into a person's life the test detects a "positive" result, we don't really know sh1t.

Have you even read ONE of the many websites that go into detail about how the test works, how far back it is useful for, what it can and can not detect, etc.? You're retarded.

It ain't over until the process is completed.

The fat lady has sung. The only question now is whether Hamilton will appeal, and on what grounds.

Maybe they should do DNA tests on everyone to determine if they had good parents, if so, maybe those
athletes should be banned also! Some athletes produce high levels of
hematocits, high testosterone, have large lung capacities, or sleep better than others when they travel. Should they be banned?

Have you ever heard of "straw man"? Straw Man, meet Mr. Chump.

I have a big issue (privacy) with the direction that all of this testing is going. Why should cyclists' personal medical histories be public knowledge?

Because if we don't aggressively fight drug cheats, every cyclist will feel job pressure to inject themselves with loads of dangerous drugs just in order to make a living?

What other profession requires this of their members?

Most Olympic sports, to name just a few dozen or so.

We would all be up in arms if we went to work in a factory and the employer asked us to give a blood test to see if we had any "abnormalities".

You don't have to be a professional cyclist. It's your choice if you want to play by the rules.

Maybe our health insurer should just drop us completely because a relative died of cancer.

There's that pesky little Straw Man again. This is apropos of nothing.

I also have had a hrd time trying to figure out why cycling fans (at least those on this NG) will spend more time and effort denigrating Tyler, and others, before we even know for sure that anything has happened, and that he in fact may have cheated. I can't think of any other sport that has fans that do this. Most professional sports don't even know what the hell they are doing when it comes to anti-doping, and care less about performance enhancement then they do about recreational drugs. Pro athletes (non-cycling) that get caught committing murder are treated better than a cyclist that has tested positive. Why does a baseball player that gets caught with cocaine for the 100th time get criticised for the sole reason that his jail time "may be a distraction" to him, but cycling fans are ready to sell their own down the river for something has not yet even been proven through the process?????

I don't know about you, but I also think it stinks when other pro sports let drug cheats (even recreational drug cheats) off lightly. So your argument for me, sums up to about zero.

I want the drug cheats out of cycling, period. I want this to be a test of talent, hard work, and tactics, not a pharmaceutical race to the bottom.

Don't even get me started on the fact that right now, Tyler, the UCI, and
Phonak are the only ones in the world that should even know about this affair.
We shouldn't even be discussing this, nevermind debating it, until (and if)
WADA issues a sanction.

Just my .02[/QUOTE]

 

[Ewoud Dronkert]

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 17:24:30 +1000, antoineg wrote:
> I don't know about you

I appreciated that you liked my little "ternary" joke, but PLEASE USE A
REAL NEWS READER!! This is not a web board, this is a newsgroup. It's
supposed to be in its own realm, on news servers. Cyclingmoronsdotcom
uses a web gateway to grab our free public discussion for generating ad
revenue. And they invite people to quote really really badly.

Go have a look at http://www.individual.net/ for a free news server,
that you may use with a free reader like http://www.getthunderbird.com/
or http://www.forteinc.com/agent/download.php or even Outlook Express
but *with* http://email.about.com/cs/oepluginreviews/gr/oe-quotefix.htm

Thanks.

 

[Richard Adams]

[email protected] (Ronde Chump) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Just an observation about this Tyler deal, and the state of cycling in
> general........
>
> Why is everyone (in this NG especially) so quick to point the finger and
> declare Tyler a cheater?

Too be at the head of the herd. Moo.

 

[Sierraman]

"antoineg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

I want the drug cheats out of cycling, period. I want this to be a
test of talent, hard work, and tactics, not a pharmaceutical race to
the bottom.

Well said.

 

[Ray]

[email protected] (Ronde Chump) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Just an observation about this Tyler deal, and the state of cycling in
> general........
>
>
<skip>


>
> Don't even get me started on the fact that right now, Tyler, the UCI, and
> Phonak are the only ones in the world that should even know about this ffair.
> We shouldn't even be discussing this, nevermind debating it, until (and if)
> WADA issues a sanction.
>


You got it right. The UCI has a policy of not disclosing
inconclusive test results. However, Tyler's are all over every
where. Now who is the cheater? In my opinion its the UCI. The UCI
has violated the rule prohibiting disclosure. Aren't the guardians
held to higher standards than those they monitor? I surely think they
ought to be. When the guardians can not even comply with rules of
their own making, why should I have any confidence in them?

But then, I lost faith in bureaucrats long ago.

ray

 

[Ronde Chump]

Agreed, Yep, the authorities are supposed to be above reproach....but guess
what, they

are only interested in their own agenda, not the truth. Once the damage is
done

it cannot be reversed, but they can skate because they have no legal
culpability

(the athletes give blood/urine voluntarily). How many news stories carried the


Tyler news? How many will devote the same amount of time to it if/when he's

cleared?

I just read the D'Antoni news, and a post by j-dash-me complaining about lost

prize money that D'Antoni won during the year, even after a positive A test. I


thought that j-dash-me knew what he was talking about but that's not the case.

The B sample was most likely done a few weeks after the A test. The only thing


that the B test does, is make sure that the case moves forward through USADA,

nothing else.

I, for one, would not want to tell a rider thay he/she can't race until the
case

is resolved. It usually takes months, even years to get a final resolution.

Who's going to pay that athlete for all of the lost earnings (current and

future), endorsements, prizes, etc. if he/she is eventually cleared? The only

difference between a cheater and a non-cheater could be as simple as a doctor's


note. Under the rules, if you take athsma medicine and test positive for it,

the only reason its not a doping violation is because you filed a TUE. If you

didn't file a TUE, then you must be a cheater. I'm also still not convinced

that USADA's EPO test is a good one. Contrary to what they have us believing,

they don't actually detect EPO. What they detect is the probability the EPO
may

have been used, based on the number of misformed blood cells. Without being a

scientist, I can't say for certain that EPO is the only reason for misformed

blood cells, or not.

Another fact; the riders on TT1/2 teams have to record all of their medicines

and have a doctor's siggnature, prescriptions, doses, how long, etc. in their

health booklet, as well as submit at least 4 blood test to the UCI each year.

The UCI tracks all of this so that there's a history and baseline measurements

for each rider. TT3 riders don't have to do this. That means that only the

riders on US Postal and Navigators are doing this. Why don't all the teams do

it? Makes you wonder why some riders don't want to ride on a higher level team,


all the while telling everyone that they can't get a job on a better team, even


though they are the best in the country......

Hey, how about Geanvieve? Many others have paid a high price for skipping dope

tests, but during her defense she was able to prove that she missed it because

she was upset. Sometimes there's a perfectly good explanation, and it is

encouraging to see that USADA will take the time to listen.


I feel really bad for Tyler, because he's really fuxed on this. The only thing


that WADA knows is that he has 2 types of blood cells. They don't care about

why, how or when.....all they care about is that their rules say they can call

him a cheater. It scares me to know that not only do they make the rules, you

cannot fight to change them, even if they are completely ass-backwards. Under

WADA, you are guilty until you can prove that you're innocent. How does one

prove that 2 types of blood cells are not the result of blood-boosting? How

many people just happen to have old vials of blood sitting in their fridge just


in case WADA calls? Isn't it possible that the anti-doping bodys are not God?


Maybe their sh1t does stink (how about that frozen blood?).

The WADA rules are almost a self-fulfilling prophecy in that it is almost

impossible to prove innocence after the fact. Throw in the fact that most

athletes (especially cyclists) don't have the resources to mount a legal

defense, so it's cheaper and easier to just take the suspension and get a real

job. WADA and USADA rely on this fact to build their stature. Until they are

challenged in a real court, for things like lost income, defamation of

character, etc. How much do you think Simoni lost when he was stripped of the

pink jersey in the Giro? In addition to losing his lead, his team was

un-invited from LeTour. Throw a few American Labor Lawyers at that case!

As for the D'Antoni thing, yeah it sucks to lose to a cheater, but its still

better to give the benefit of doubt until the fat lady sings. Destroying the

career of just one innocent rider is a lot worse than having some cheaters slip


through the cracks. The system needs to be changed...the process has to move

more quickly so that the cheaters are off the street in less time.

In their zeal to root out the cheaters, I think the anti-doping bodys

(WADA/USADA/IOC) need to take a more measured look at their philosophy of

tainting all athletes as cheaters, unless they can prove otherwise, and perhaps


consider that maybe statistics aren't the answer.

Just more ramblings.....Chump

 

[remove the polite word to reply]

>
> But then, I lost faith in bureaucrats long ago.

FAITH? in the exact ppl that turn us against each other for selfish benefit?

It's our "leaders" that turn us against each other.

How much better off would we be without Saddam, or W.?
One's just a more toxic version of the same narcissistic insanity.

Muhammad Ali: " I ain't go nothing against them Viet Cong."