Why Cycling will never be accepted by road users PERIOD

Discussion in 'Commuting and Road Safety' started by Jeytown, May 22, 2006.

  1. e0richt

    e0richt New Member

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    actually, you are full of it here I do it here all the time.... If I were to get into a left lane in order to make a left turn in a parking lot, on that kind of road, I wouldn't be worried about a ticket because its perfectly legal to do that, I would be worried a JAM wouldn't be paying attention and I would get backended...but no cop would bother me...

    what I think is worse, is the fact that you recognize that a cyclist would slow you down only a couple of minutes and that bothers you... "a bicycle on the road gives you no benefit.." uh, actually it is to your benefit due to less carbon emissions but you can't see very well past your own steering wheel I guess...
     


  2. Edudbor

    Edudbor New Member

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    I don't know why you seem to be getting so offended. This thread is why cycling won't be accepted by road users; and I'm giving my opinion. Saying it's a stupid opinion will rarely change someone's mind. Nothing you are saying is anything I'm not already aware of...but I'll still respond....

    1.) I'm not talking about getting into a left hand lane and slowing down traffic. That's a perfectly reasonable thing that people do all the time. I'm talking about driving 10 miles down the road; where the posted speed limit is 55mph, doing 15mph. Where the road is only one lane, during rush hour traffic.

    2.) Personally, I don't particularly care about any saved carbon emissions. Sorry, but it's the truth. And, because I don't care about it; I don't see any benefit too it. Even if I did see a personal benefit from it; the guy riding a bicycle down the road; I don't know that he's actually driving less because of his bike. It's very possible he bikes in addition to his driving. He might even have a big SUV to help carry his outdoorsy type adventure gear. You'd really have to consider the bicycle industry as a whole before you could really claim any gain. For example; I've got a bicycle...I'm sure a bunch of different parts came from a bunch of different factories...many of which are in countries with little or no sort of emission requirements. I don't know the processes involved to make the parts; but how much of a 'footprint' did that leave? Those parts were shipped all over, assembled, and then the bike was shipped all over. All of those vehicles involved gave off carbon emissions; right?

    I've got a bicycle now, but it'll be weeks or possibly never, before I actually drive less for having it. I'll be out, on the road, riding - but I won't be cutting down on carbon emissions.

    So, again, to summarize my points....I'm asking you to do *the same thing* you would do on a bicycle in car - not simply making a left hand turn. Drive down the road, for miles upon miles. Drivers won't like you. It has nothing to do with the fact that you are on a bicycle and everything to do with the fact that you are slowing them down.

    Reduction of carbon emissions is something many people don't care about (and may or may not be an issue at all). Even if it is, if someone doesn't percieve a value in something, it doesn't matter if *you* do. They don't.

    Pro's to the driver: None
    Con's to the driver: Slows them down, makes them pass.

    I think it's pretty easy to see why drivers, like myself, aren't thrilled to have bike riders on the road. I understand that they often have no place else to go; I would also never insult them, yell at them, honk at them, or do anything that would cause them harm. But no amount of rationalizing on your part is going to make me go 'Oh, well, they are only a little annoying, so I don't mind'. It's a minor pain in my ass, so I have a minor dislike of bicylists.
     
  3. e0richt

    e0richt New Member

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    Im sure they have a minor dislike of you too...
     
  4. Edudbor

    Edudbor New Member

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    Ummm - I believe I said that in my first post. That, as a bicycle rider, I find cars to be an annoyance.
     
  5. NORECUMYET

    NORECUMYET New Member

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    First of all, your name speaks volumes. E, DUD, and BOR. Now you moron. When I say, "too rambunctious", what I meant is this. If the guy doesn't stop with insults and actually assaults me with his car. And yes, swerving towards a bicycle to scare him or her is the same thing as assault with a deadly weapon. In the case of being assaulted I believe I have every right to wail the crap out of the offender. This includes blasting them with bear repellent. You mention driving with your windows up. So what. The first thing I would do in your case is break the window.

    Let me be very clear here. I DO NOT ATTACK PEOPLE. If I am assaulted I WILL defend myself. Thats's what I was talking about. Now back to you again. I've read a couple of your other posts. Please do the rest of us a favor. Don't lump yourself in with us. Please don't help us. It's quite obvious that you would have a very difficult time getting along with anyone, in any situation.

    I'd have to say that you're probably the one in ten thousand I refer to that's stupid enough to believe that you have more of a right to the road than I do. You mention over and over about how you get annoyed. Tough shit you little weasel. Go live on an island where you don't have to associate with anyone else. Poor baby, you get annoyed if you have to show up to your Joseph Mengele fan club meeting thirty seconds later than you would have if it were not for that evil bike rider.

    You keep talking of being STUCK behind a bicycle on a long country road where you have NO way to get around them. It sounds to me like you either need to grow some huevos and learn to drive, or simply STAY OFF THAT ROAD. Do you really think you're going to get sympathy here because you get slowed down by a few seconds once in a while? Get over yourself. There's nothing that you could do that would be so important as to get you "annoyed" because you might have to wait a few second behind a bicycle. Have you never had to learn what to do if things aren't going exactly your way?
     
  6. Edudbor

    Edudbor New Member

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    Are you mad....lol :)

    Actually, EdudBor is RobDude spelled backwards. My name is Rob, and I'm male (last I checked).

    I know its fun to play internet tough guy; but let's be serious here. First, you never have the right to 'wail the crap' out of someone. Legally, you have a right to *defend yourself* with an appropriate level of force. What that specifically means will be up to the judge and/or jury; but there is no law that says 'If a guy tries to hurt you, you can beat the crap out of him'. You can use enough force to defend yourself. Anymore and you are guilty of a crime.

    Aside from the fact that, legally, you can't 'wail the crap' out of someone...I find it hard to believe you - or anyone - is capable of what you are claiming to be able to do. Have you even broken a car window? While riding a bicycle? While the car is moving?

    We can turn this into an e-pissing contest all day long; and I'd rather not, so I'll just say this...the kind of guy who will try to scare a bicycle rider or force him off the road is also the kind of guy who is likely to have a weapon (knife/gun/etc...) in his vehicle. And while you are putzing around with your karate chop to break his window, he needs to turn his steering wheel only a matter of inches and his car will be on top of you.

    Anyway, I'm interested to know where you live? I'm guessing it's a very urban area, where there are plenty of alternate routes available to you? I grew up in the Chicago land area, and a few months ago, I probably would have agreed with you. But now I live in Northern CO, and it's a very bicycle friendly area, Loveland, Fort Collins, and Windsor all have a great choice of roads and trails. The problem is, in between these towns - especially going from Fort Collins to Windsor; there is, quite literally, two roads that you can take. Two. There is an interstate (I-25) that runs North/South that you must cross to get from one town to the next. There are two roads (both are single lane highways, no shoulder, no bike paths). Heck, a lot of the roads out here aren't even paved. Gravel roads?!

    Now, you can insult my driving all you want, but there are sections (fairly large sections) of road/bridge that are even narrower than the typical lane. These are often poorly maintained roads, with sand/dirt/gravel at the edges. The bicyclist can't even ride full to the right-hand side; and because these are high traffic roads, especially during rush hour (which is when I'm on them) it's damn difficult to safely pass a biker.

    And that is why I don't like bicycle riders. They negatively affect me. They slow me down. They provide me with no benefit (as I've discussed before). The net effect here, is - No Pro's, Small Con's. Over all, I'd be happier if there were no bicycle riders. And before you get all upset and say that bicycles have equal rights to the road...well, let's be honest about that too. Bicycles *don't* have equal rights to the road.

    I know, I know, this is a cycling forum and people are going to be upset. Whatever. Be reasonable and really think about this for a second. Can you ride your bicycle on an expressway/interstate? No. It's illegal. That alone, means you do not have the same rights as a motorvehcile. Why is it illegal to ride a bicycle on an interstate? Because it's DANGEROUS! But why is it dangerous? It's dangerous because bicycle riders are going to be doing between 10-30 mph and the cars will be doing up to 90mph. The greater the difference in speed between the two objects, the greater the risk.

    Bicycles are a minor annoyance to me when they are on roads that do not accommodate them. Roads with no bike lane, no shoulder, and speed limits (or average traffic speeds) well in excess of what a bicycle can do. I, without passing or being passed, drive at 60 mph or so, for a stretch of 4-5 miles each morning. It's a single lane road, with no shoulder, not even a curb, and no bicycle lane. There are several bridges (each with a 'Caution: Narrow' sign). And, there is a lot of traffic, making passing very difficult.

    Again, you can insult my driving all you want; but *I* feel unsafe when dealing with these bicycle riders. If I, god forbid, accidently hit a cyclist; I'm looking at a very large financial burden and, if the poor guy is seriously hurt (or worse, killed); I could see that causing some emotional-type issues. If I leave too much room on my right, and I clip an oncoming car; well, obviously, that's bad too. Even slowing down to keep pace with the bicycle rider until he clears a bridge quickly causes a large traffic backup.

    Inside of the towns around here, all of the roads have a bit of extra space before the curb; and many have designated bike lanes. There are 1 or 2 roads that have sections of 40 mph (and those are mutli-lane roads, with bike lanes), the rest have even lower speed limits. On those roads, I'm simply indifferent towards cyclists. They have space to do their thing, I have space to do my thing.

    So, say what you will about me personally; but personal attacks rarely do anything to change someone's opinion. But, the fact remains that, in some cases bicyclists are a minor annoyance and in no case are they a benefit to me, directly.

    I'll continue to drive the same way I drive, and I'll continue to be slightly annoyed each time I run into a bicyclist on a road that makes it difficult for myself and other motor vehicles to navigate, and I'll continue to avoid roads on my bicycle where I know there is not space for myself to fit, nor space for cars to comfortably pass me. And you can continue to break windows and spray bear repellant in the eyes of people operating motor vehicles :)
     
  7. NORECUMYET

    NORECUMYET New Member

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    Have you ever heard of a center punch? It's a tool originally designed to make a small "dent" in a piece of metal. There are the "manual" type that require the use of a hammer, and there are the "automatic" type that only require a small amount of force. You push down on them and after about one inch of travel, a spring loaded arrangement "fires" an internal hammer onto the "punch" portion of the tool. Slightly altered versions of these tools are sold for THE SPECIFIC PURPOSE of breaking a tempered glass automobile window. They get a lot of sales in Florida where it's not unusual for folks to end up in the canals there. It's a safety device that makes it possible for even a weak old woman, like yourself, to break their window so that they can escape drowning. Now, I don't know that I want to address all of your points one by one but I will say the following.

    Because I've used the terms legal and illegal does not mean that I in any way shape or form feel bound by these laws. I was making a point in a particular paragraph. That's all. IF, and I emphasize IF, someone tries to hit me with their car, the law at that instant is not going to protect me or do what I deem as the necessary things that should follow. Now folks like yourself want to tell someone like me what my rights are, and that I should call the police etc. I will do whatever I think is necessary in my mind (including a call to the police) to lessen the chances of the person whose attacked me to do the same thing to someone else. In other words, my goal is to leave such a bad taste in that person's mouth that they will think very hard before again doing something similar. Of course all of this is assuming that I haven't been paralyzed from being hit by the car.

    Now since you seem to need specific explannations of everything I will give you one. I once was riding my mountain bike down a steep boulevard coming down from the mountains. The traffic was heavy and moving along at approx. 35 MPH. The road I was on has very deep storm drain inlets IN it's bike lane so riding IN the bike lane is simply too dangerous. I was out in the traffic moving at the same speed so in this case there was no reason for someone like you to be "annoyed". A red light was coming up and I eventually slowed to a stop a couple of feet from the rear end of the auto in front of me. Just as I stopped I felt a very, very small jerk in my bike. When I turned around (I didn't ride with a rearview mirror back then) I saw a brand new black Volvo station wagon's front bumper actually touching my rear tire. As you can expect I was in a state of shock, fear, and anger that someone would do something like this. When I looked up at the gentleman driving he rolled down the window and told me to "get the "F" off HIS road." I extricated myself from in between the two cars and walked my bike back to his driver's side window wherein I asked him what seemed to be the problem. He again yelled at me to get the @%#% off his road. I tried one more time to find out exactly what he was thinking and this time he started to get out his car. I could only guess at that point that he was going to assault me. Without time to think about it ( I assume my self defense instincts took over) I picked up my cheap mountain bike and slammed it into his driver's side door forcing it closed along with doing severe damage to the paint and body. I then pulled my pump off of it's mount and told him that if he tried anything that I would beat him to death with my pump. I will guess this guy didn't know how much a bicycle pump weighs because at that point he threw his now damaged car into gear and took off down the road. I never saw him again.

    THIS is the kind of thing I'm referring to. Ever since that day I have always carried SOMETHING with me that can aid in my own self defense. On a bicycle you are very vulnerable so I see nothing wrong with evening up the odds as much as possible. Now, if I have something very similar happen to me again, and if I have the bear spray with me, and if the person gets out of the car which would lead me to believe that I'm going to be assaulted, then I WILL hose em down, no questions asked. Now if you think it impossible for scenarios such as this to take place then go out and start riding in traffic every day for the next year. When that year is up THEN tell me how you feel about this issue.

    It's quite obvious from everything you've written so far that you have absolutely NO experience with riding a bike or motorcycle in traffic. Maybe you should consider refraining from writing about things in which you have no understanding. Just remember this. When you write to a forum like this and start out with telling someone that they're pathetic, they're not likely to act like your best friend. As far a being "an internet tough guy" I can only assume that you mean I'm making all of this up. Once again to repeat myself, get out there on the road during rush hour every day for even a few months and THEN tell me how full of crap I am.

    I live in Southern California and whether or not there are alternative roads makes no difference. What you keep saying over and over and over makes it quite clear where you're coming from. You don't believe that you should have to be inconvenienced for the sake of a bicycle rider whom doesn't contribute anything to society as far as you can see. You know what? Nobody gives a damn if you like or not. Go hide in a cave somewhere. You live in a world with other people and like it or not you have to live with them. Even it means that your trip to work might be slowed down by what, 60 seconds. I mean really, what's the longest amount of time that you've ever been slowed down on one these bridges that these evil bicycles keep hogging? I'll bet that it's not more than one minute. That's sixty seconds buddy, and if sixty seconds means that much to you then you need another plan.

    BY THE WAY, just for pissing contest reasons alone, I could VERY EASILY ride by your car while you and I are both cruising down the road at 35 MPH, cruise up next to your window, and with my right hand push with five pounds of force (All that is needed for a "Life Hammer") and in one fifth of a second turn your driver's side tempered glass window into ten thousand pieces. Here is the link where you can buy your own personal life hammer. It's not exactly the same thing as a center punch, but if you reread my previous text I never said it was. It is a spring loaded "hammer" made specifically for breaking side and rear windows. Now am I going to have to prove everything else I've written as well?
    http://saveyourlife.us/ResQMe.html

    One more thing for now. IF.......someone did pull a gun or weapon on me, then my 35 foot stream of bear repellent may very well save my life. Not carrying anything certainly isn't going to do me any good. Everyone thankfully is not like yourself. I will not run away when someone has taken my life in their hands. Let me guess, you're from France aren't you? You know, I'm a lot of thing negative and you would be correct to call me them. I AM NOT however a liar or a coward. I would rather be beat down than to run away, and being that I live and ride in Southern California I have no need to make up stories of road rage. Don't you watch the news. Some guy was just run over in the last few days, by a car, on his bicycle.
     
  8. Edudbor

    Edudbor New Member

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    You seem mad :)

    Okay, okay, so you are riding with a special window breaking device and bear spray....Gotcha.

    And you don't have any problem with breaking the law, but you expect others to obey it.....Gotcha.

    And I make a post offering my opinion as a *driver*
    (Quote from my first post --> "I'm not a cyclist (not yet anyway). I've clocked exactly *zero* minutes on my bicycle so far (bought it today). So, I feel I'm a good candidate to give the 'drivers' perspective; or at least my own views on the issue...."); and yet you tell me not to comment on things I don't know. I know what it's like to be a driver, and I'm giving my opinion on why drivers don't like dealing with bicycle riders. Not being a bicycle rider has nothing to do with that.

    It seems like you fail to recognize a difference between someone like me (who acknowledges that bicyclists have a right to be in the road, but prefer that they aren't inconviencing me) and people like the guy in your story who want to hit your bicycle. You are responding as if my admitting my annoyance in some way harms you. As though, I'm leading the fight *against* bicylists. I'm not.

    People don't like things that annoy them. I don't like long lines, I don't like the DMV, I don't like driving behind bicycle riders, I don't like people who drive below the speed limit, I don't like drivers who fail to use their turn signals, etc, etc. The amount of time it takes to resolve an annoyance isn't an issue. If something is generally annoying and offers no general advantage, someone will generally be against it.

    I'm generally against cars driving 25 miles below the speed limit.
    I'm generally against long lines at the super market.
    I'm generally against commercials for perscription drugs.
    I'm generally against Britney Spears.
    I'm generally against Mexican food.
    I'm generally against large people in tiny clothes.

    I don't want to hurt anyone who does those things. I don't think that people shouldn't be able to do those things. But I don't like those things. I don't expect anyone doing those things to particularlly care that I don't like those things. But, the fact remains, I still, don't like them.

    This thread is about 'Why Cycling will never be accepted by road users'. I'm telling you *why* I, as a road user, don't care for cyclists. Since that is the topic at hand; I'm honestly very curious...*why* do you think that guy you encountered who hit your back tire decided to hit your tire? He obviously wanted you off the road...but *why* do you think he wanted you off the road? Do you think he disliked you because of your gender? Your sex? Your physical appearance?

    I'm guessing it was none of those things. It probably had something to do with the fact that you were on a bicycle. Why do you think he dislikes bicycles?

    Maybe he was molested as a child by a door to door bicycle sales man? But that's highly unlikely.

    What I'm saying, the opinion I'm offering, is that; he probably didn't like you because you are a minor inconvience/annoyance for him and other drivers. He handled that annoyance poorly, you and I agree on that. You had every right to be in the road, you and I agree on that. All I'm doing, is saying why I believe he, and other drivers, dislike bicycles.

    You seem to be focusing on attacking me personally; so why not take a break from that, and let's talk about why you think he did what he did. And then, whatever you say, I'll attack you personally, as though you advocate hitting bicycle riders for whatever reason you offer :)

    It'll be a fun game.
     
  9. NORECUMYET

    NORECUMYET New Member

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    Only one quick comment for now. (maybe a long one.) You don't seem to pay attention. How many times do I need to write the SAME THING OVER AND OVER. I brought up the law to make a point in ONE paragraph of an earlier post. I did not say/write that I expect others to obey the law. Since you can't seem to even understand one simple concept I'm not sure that addressing anything else you've said has much point to it. However seeing as how you're losing this debate severely and it is fun to literally watch you squirm while you're having your "I don't like slow carsth, linsth at the thupermarket, or Britney Spearsth" littly tissy fit, I'll just have to keep picking apart what you've written and responding to it. Let the games begin.

    And no I don't carry around a window breaking device on my bike. I do have one in my car just in case. Once again you've totally missed the point. You made ignorant comments on the impossibility of statements that I had made earlier. You commented on the virtual impossibility of one being able to break a car window under less than ideal circumstances. I was pointing out that you know not of which you speak by showing quite graphically, with a link to show my example, that a simple tool that can be carried on a key chain can easily break a window. I never said I could break a window with a Karate chop to paraphrase your rediculous notion.

    If you go back a few posts you will see that the personal attacks started with you and a comment about my being pathetic. I have no problem taking heat, but as your writing shows so clearly, you have a very difficult taking that which you so liberally dish out.

    One more comment for this post. No one here cares if you have a tissy, or hissy is it, fit every time you have to drive below 25 MPH. It's also quite obvious that the people that do the swerving towards bicycles (among other things like throwing things out the window and yelling) are not folks that are laid back individuals who can properly manage their time. The crazies that do rotten things to those of us that are just trying to ride our bikes without being creamed are folks that; 1. Get upset at lines in supermarkets. 2. Get "annoyed" at bicycles that have no place to get out of the way. 3. Not least but without a doubt the creepiest one of all is anyone that gives a rats ass one way or another about Britney Spears. This last comment speaks volumes about the author and his "preferences."
     
  10. Edudbor

    Edudbor New Member

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    [font=&quot]Funny - when someone is winning a debate, he rarely has to announce it :)

    The first thing I'll point out is that you have completely avoided answering the question I directed at you. Namely, to explain why you feel bicycles aren't accepted by motor vehicle operators.

    If you want to recap our conversation thus far, here's how it began

    1.) I offer my opinion on the topic of this thread
    2.) You play e-thug and talk about giving people a face full of anti-bear something or other
    3.) I call you pathetic.

    You can scroll up and check, that's pretty much how it went down. If you want to disagree, please include specific quotes and timestamps.

    You mention the law, and then you advocate breaking it. That's hypocritical. You expect others to follow the law, but think its okay for you to follow a different set of laws. I point that out. You don't like me pointing it out? Oh well.

    You describe a situation that I say is highly unlikely (you breaking a window, of a moving vehicle, whose driver is trying to hurt you, while on a bicycle). Then you say 'Well ummm look here is a product that would help me do it'. Then you later admit you don't ride with it. That does nothing to make your claim more likely. Let me give you an analogy...

    You make a claim (I drove 400 miles in my car in 2 hours)
    I say that is unlikely (I don't think you can drive 400 miles in your car in 2 hours)
    You counter with an irrelevant point (Here is a link to a jet plane that goes 700 miles in 2 hours)

    See, in that example...if you had a jet plane, your point would relevant. If you don't carry your little window breaking device on your bicycle, the fact that it exists has nothing to do with your ability to break someone's window. There are many devices and tools that can break a window. I expect the average bicycle rider to carry none of them. And that's why I felt as though your hypothetical response to a hypothetical situation was 'unlikely'. [/font]

    [font=&quot] [/font]

    [font=&quot]I still think it's unlikely, with or without your device (not the issue of whether or not you can break a car window - but the larger issue; I think your attempt to stop/harm the driver has no positive outcome. The most likely result is you getting run over; even if you manage to spray the driver with your bear spray - people's natural reaction will be to break and pull off the road. You are on the right hand side of the vehicle and pulling off the road means....turning to the right. Or he swerves into oncoming traffic and takes out a family riding to soccer practice. But none of that is a concern to you, because you won't let someone bully you! Safety of others be damned! Legal consequences be damned!

    But tell me, please, since you think you are 'winning' this 'debate' - could you identify what points of contention you feel as though you've won? I'm really curious. And while you are at it, why don't you try answering the question posed in this thread? You seem to dislike my answer...maybe you've got a better one?

    There is such a thing as looking for a fight. Going through life with a chip on your shoulder. I'm guessing you've got a small wee-wee or are under 5'5". Being a dick does little to help your cause, and while you say you won't go starting fights, your posts here certainly don't support it. Which one of us was the first to mention physically harming someone? Me....or you? [/font]

    [font=&quot]Here, let me make it easy for you. These are actual quotes, in chronological order from the both of us.

    Me (Post #1): "I could be wrong, but that's my take on it. If the bicycle could keep up with the flow of traffic, I wouldn't mind it at all. And, yes, I realize I'll now be riding my bike to work and pissing off other people who feel the same way as me...but there is no possible route that will let me avoid these types of roads. I don't like it anymore than they do"

    You (Post #2): "if I'm the guy in front of you on the bike and you get too rambunctious for my tastes, you're going to end up with a face full of bear repellent."

    'Too rambunctious for your tastes'? Don't see how that would be the EXACT same rationalization a driver would use to swerve at you, honk, or yell? I'm advocating respecting the law, even if it's annoying. If everyone did this, nobody would swerve or honk at you (at least here in CO it's illegal to do so). But if everyone adopted your philosophy, anytime anyone didn't like anything you did, they'd be free to break the law and take matters into their own hands. Just as you advocate in your first response to me.[/font]
     
  11. batjerk

    batjerk New Member

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    I wouldn't say cycling will never be accepted, as in most of the world, it is. Here in the US it might not be liked much by some motorists, but it is far from not being accepted.

    Some motorists in the US have this mistaken view that they have a right to the road and all other users be damned. It is too bad that they are willfully ignorant of the truth of the matter: theirs is merely a privilege. And rightly so. Motor vehicles are a public safety hazard and therefore need tighter controls.

    Most of us have been taught that collisions involving motor vehicles are "accidents" when the reality is that very few involve some unforeseen mechanical failure or other type of happenstance that is uncontrollable and could be considered an accident. Most collisions are the result of an incompetent or inattentive driver, or one exhibiting malicious intent. Very often, these crashes result in the loss of ability or life.

    It is, liker it or not, the resposibility of the motorist to watch out for all other road users. Just as it is the responsibility of gun user to be aware of what is around him and his target at all times. And for the same reason.

    Yes, bicycles are slow, but so are tractors. They also have a right to use the road regardless of any perceived inconvenience on the part of the motorist. Fast traffic must always yield right of way to slow traffic.

    I hate to see cyclists disobeying traffic laws. Motorists, too, maybe even more so as the cyclist is really only a danger to himself; the motorist is a threat to everyone. this, however, does not excuse the cyclist from being contrary to traffic laws.

    Incidentally, in MN, it is illegal to operate a bicycle on any public road from 1/2 hour after sunset to 1/2 before sunrise if it is not equipped with a white light facing forward and a white reflector also facing forward. The bicycle must also have a red light facing the rear (it may be either steady or flashing) and a red reflector, also facing rearward.

    As to sites that suggest safety, try Ken Kifer's site or Ice Bike. There are others, but cannot remember them right off hand. Ken Kifer's site has a plethora of links to other sites that also address safety and other aspects of cycling. Most of them will deal with the practical use, rather than the sport, of cycling.
     
  12. NORECUMYET

    NORECUMYET New Member

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    Well. I guess it's me that's not paying attention cause I have absolutely no idea what the hell you're talking about. Do you believe that you own this site and that you write and control the "rules"? Sorry, it doesn't work that way. I NEVER SAID that I thought motorists and bicycles can't get along. NEVER! If you somehow gleaned this thought from what I've written than you've incorrectly read something between the lines that was never there. To the contrary you thilly little pussy. I have said in more than one post (maybe not in this particular thread) that the vast majority of motorists are great. Especially now that I ride a bent which seems to get me seen much more than a DF. Most folks GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to be polite and stay as far away from potential accidents as possible.

    Now unlike yourself I don't have time this morning to answer every one of your ridiculous points. I'm actually going to spend a couple hours riding. On the street. You know the place you admit to having NO experience. (Most people don't consider points from a person that have’nt been there to be of much consequence.) You are correct. I don't have to announce that I'm winning the debate. It's quite obvious. Don't take my word for it. Just count up all the negative posts in response to your tired rhetoric on how much us slow bicycles annoy you.

    If you're really the glutton for punishment that I believe you to be I will be happy to read the rest of your latest tissy fit and respond point by point. That will have to wait for later though. For now I just hope to stay as far away as possible from anyone that finds MY SLOW BICYCLE PACE to be really ANNOYING. Because the bottom line is this. The motorists that ARE NOT annoyed by cyclists are not the ones we need to concern ourselves with. It's the prissy little gentlemen like yourself that worry us, because, even if you've really never done anything nasty to a cyclist, it's probably only a matter of time before someone that repeats over and over just how much bicyclists ANNOY him does something that might not me in his general nature. You see here’s one of the big problems with your premise that “Slow things just annoy me.” If you constantly think, and then write about something like being annoyed by something or someone, eventually by nature things tend to escalate. That’s why there is more than one negative post about your premise that we can’t get along. People like you scare us. Being that you DON’T have the road experience you wouldn’t know just how vulnerable you can feel out there when you’re in shorts, a tank, and twenty pounds of carbon fiber to protect you from folks having fits about how slow we are while sitting in their five thousand pound SUVs that make them feel like they’re superman.

    Of course I guess teen idols have something to be worried about as well. For reasons I still haven't made sense of you decided to mention one of them in one of your fits. Exactly how this teen idol had anything to do with the subject is beyond me, but unlike yourself, again, I won't tell you what you're NOT ALLOWED to write about. Hey knock yourself out. Maybe you can tell us all about the latest episode of "Queer as Folk" while you're at it.

    A question to all. Do you know what ANNOYS ME? People that when behind the wheel of a car turn into monsters that truly believe their annoyance with slow bicycles on bridges that DON'T have bike lanes should concern us. And people that have tissy fits in the supermarket because the line isn't moving fast enough for them. Folks that have a problem with Britney Spears? Well I just don't know what to say about that. I think another discussion forum is a better place for things of that nature. Bye for now DUD BORE.
     
  13. caracol40

    caracol40 New Member

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    Edudbor,

    I find interesting your viewpoint as a car driver but future cyclist. And, although I don't agree with all your statements, I find appalling the amount of uppercase shouting and frantic arguing that your posts raise in this thread.

    I am personnally a passionate (compulsive ?) cyclist, and ride more miles every year than I drive. I am totally convinced that cyclists have an equal right to the road - if not, morally speaking (sorry, I can't help thinking that the greenhouse effect is a real issue and that I should save at least some gas for my kids to use) - more right to the road(*). Even so, I occasionnally drive, and I sometimes feel a minor irritation not to be able to pass a cyclist within seconds - so I can understand what you are saying.

    I live in an area where cycling is quite popular as a hobby, but rather marginal as a means of transportation. Being "accepted" on the road very much depends when you cycle. Absolutely no problem on a Sunday morning. It is OK also during rush hours in summer, because in summer at least one half of all car drivers are going to ride their own bike one sunny afternoon. Much less OK in winter, because all these people have become 100% cagers again and have forgotten that bicycles exist - and they wouldn't think of riding in such a cold weather. And if by any chance you are out late on a Saturday night (which I sometimes do in the course of long distance rides), some drunk teenagers will actually feel personally offended that you dare do something as ridiculous as riding a bike, and they will show it by shouting at you or possibly by threatening you with their 4-wheeled weapon.
    So my view of why cyclists are, or are not, accepted on the road is that they are accepted not depending on the amount of disturbance they may cause to the motorized "traffic flow", but rather depending on whether riding a bike at this time and place is perceived as "socially acceptable".

    Now, coming back to the somewhat violent contradiction you may raise on this forum. I think that cyclists, overall, endure quite a lot of outrage on the road. Some can't take it, may not be very motivated, and quit riding. Some choose to continue riding but often have to fight for it - to fight their fear, to fight for their right to the road, to learn how to resist the pressure of traffic. So while you are comfortably seated behind your wheel, contemplating this "minor annoyance" of a cyclist, said cyclist may be actively resisting his impulse to move even more to the right, because he knows that if he does so (to help you) the guy following you will leave him even less space, and so on until he gets no space at all. I think this minor but continuous "fight for some space", or "fight for some respect" does sometimes influence our moods and make us more aggressive than we should be - both on the road and in the cycling forums.

    I hope you will nevertheless find interest and pleasure in cycling, and if you do I would be curious to read how you perceive these relationships in, say, 6 months.


    (*) Ha ! I know this is a debatable statement - but I couldn't resist
     
  14. e0richt

    e0richt New Member

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    I feel this is more a problem of not having infrastructure suited to cyclists/motorists so that tension is minimized...

    but the ideal (which we have not achieved yet) is that the cyclist is treated as a driver of a vehicle but have the infrastructure to allow for them to be passed by motorists without undue antagonism (for lack of a better term)
    but until that infrastructure has been updated, the cyclist has to be treated as a driver of a vehicle...
     
  15. husky65

    husky65 New Member

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    I'm interested in the acceptance of the idea presented here that ALL cyclists are responsible for the transgressions of ANY cyclist. If we take that idea and apply it to motorists, once you've seen one break the law, then they are all law breakers and should be punished.

    Cycling IS accepted by road users in places where enough people cycle to keep awareness of the possibility of encountering a cyclist on the road in a motorists mind (Holland being a perfect example).

    Re safety equipment, I was riding with the required reflector, a bunch of reflective tape on the bike, bright gear and 2 x running rear LED blinky lights and was still hit sideswiped from behind by a car on a straight stretch of road, the driver claimed he not only didn't see me, he didn't notice me bouncing down the side of his car.

    All the lights and reflectors in the world won't save you from a fool.
     
  16. NORECUMYET

    NORECUMYET New Member

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    Do you want to know what I find appalling? It's the number of idiots, yes IDIOTS! (Since when is using caps a crime?) who feel the need to comment on things that they have absolutely NO experience in or about. I haven't post a statement for a while now. I've been too busy running, lifting weights, and yes, cycling to spend much time here. I will scan much of the debate that's gone by since the last time I was here. I got tired of trying to debate with MR. DUD BORE. Yes I did break some typical debate rules. I questioned his sexuality and just plain engaged in some name-calling. What can I say? I tired quickly of MR. DUD BORE. I kept feeling like I was in familiar territory. I finally realized where that territory was. Arguing with DUD BORE was EXACTLY like arguing with a WOMAN. No offense intended to women, but when you think you know your opponent, and it seems to turn out that said opponent MIGHT very well be misrepresenting him or herself, it can throw a monkey wrench into the soup. And it's just plain not right. At least have the decency to announce who and what you are.

    Mr. DUD BORE originally chapped my hide with his Pansy like attitude (Yes I'm calling names again. He's either a Pansy, or a female. This is the rub.) about how much it bothers him if he has to wait for a few seconds behind a cyclist. He later elaborates to let us know that lines in Supermarkets, this, that, and the other all get his panties in a bunch. He finishes this little tirade by letting us know that even Brittany Spears annoys him. Now I don't know about the rest of the guys out there reading this but that sounded really Gay to me. Most men’s opinion on Brittany Spears is the following. She's hot, a nut job which translates into damn good in the sack, and to top it off, she's rich. What more do you want? Brittany darlin' you can annoy me anytime you like, for as long as you like. Now you may wonder why I bring up this little tart on a cycling site. Well, I didn't start the subject but I do enjoy making fun of DUD BORE for doing so himself. Once again, I'm really starting to think DUD BORE is really a girl. If not then he's got a lot of shall we say, traits.

    Now believe it or not I'll comment on the actual subject that DUD BORE posed to begin with. He comments that Drivers and cyclists will NEVER get along. I do agree that DUD BORE will more than likely have trouble with ANYONE he comes in contact with. Just check the attitude and his list of things that bother him. Kind of says it all I think.

    I will repeat what I've said in more than one post now. I think the vast majority of Drivers out there are great people. They're kind, courteous, and literally go out of their way to give cyclists more than their share of the road, so the idea that we will never get along is ludicrous. There are many trends that Americans seem to follow Europeans on. I believe that the cycling thing will definitely be one of them. We will, as a matter of necessity, have more people riding bicycles every year. In time, cyclist will get more infrastructures, and more laws in their favor. They will also command more respect than they now have and incidents of road rage towards us by people that are even thrown by a Pop Stars latest shenanigans will continue to decline.

    I do think that one tool we as cyclists have to aid in this decline is to make sure that the rumor mill is in our favor. I say the following. If some Jack Ass thinks it's amusing to drive past you at seventy miles an hour and gets his side view mirror literally inches from your bike, then you not only have a right, but an obligation to cyclists everywhere to do whatever is in your power make him remember just what he has done. If that means pulling his sorry ass out of the car to give him a bath in pepper spray than so be it. Of course there are many, many different approaches to justice. They are only limited by your imagination.

    Now, if someone actually hits you with their car then all rules go out the window. That is assault with a deadly weapon, and attempted murder and in my mind you've been given the inalienable right to do almost anything to see to it that this person thinks real hard before doing something like it again.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for getting the police involved. Unfortunately we all know just how difficult it is to obtain all the necessary evidence and or witnesses in your favor. Because of this I'm all for instant justice. Sorry DUD BORE, I know this upsets your delicate sensibilities. If you don't want to see more venom spewed in your direction you can refrain from commenting. Either way doesn't make any difference to me. I think it's quite obvious how much I enjoy our little encounters.
     
  17. Edudbor

    Edudbor New Member

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    Dude - are you still here? You have the maturity level of an 8-year old. I went through your posts; this quote is from *you*.

    "I began to think that bicycling on public roads might not be a good place for either a bicycle or a rider with a personality such as my own. "

    That's why I stopped posting here. There is no point to it. By your own admission you have an attitude problem and shouldn't be on the road...and you are carrying it with you into the internet.

    So go ahead, tough guy, call me some more names. I'm really torn up by it. In fact, the tears are making it hard to type.


     
  18. NORECUMYET

    NORECUMYET New Member

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    Well well well. So, I have the maturity of an eight year old huh? I find that an interesting premise coming from you MR. DUD BORE. Why you ask? Let's see. Who was it that STARTED this whole ridiculous concept that cyclists and motorists will NEVER GET ALONG? HMMM, I think it was.........YOU! Who said, several times, that if trapped behind a cyclist, on a bridge with no bike lane, that he or she was very annoyed? (What does ALL ROAD RAGE start with by the way? I don't think it's a warm happy feeling.) Who was it that said even a slow line at the grocery store got his or her dander up? Who was it that said, and this one's the best quote of them all, that Britney Spears annoys him or her?

    You may not be torn up, you may not be losing sleep, (I’m very skeptical about these claims by the way) but one thing is painfully clear about just what IS happening in your mind. I can accurately say this by simply reading what you have said in your own words. This is bugging the crap out of you. I have gotten under your skin, thoroughly! Why do I say this? Well, you said yourself that you went back through my posts. (Lots of time on your hands I suppose.) And, it took you all of what, a few hours, to go through my posts and hence reply with your own version of disparaging MY personality. I guess it's the age-old problem, you can dish it out but don't anyone dare to serve it back up to you.

    I leave this post with this/these thought/s. You quite obviously love the abuse. You know exactly how to stop it but instead you keep begging for more. No problem. As I've said before I do find it to be an amusing pass time when I'm done with work for the day. Also, I learned to take it all like water off a ducks back many years ago. I consider it to be like a strange game of tennis.

    I also find it odd that you are obviously compelled to reply to EVERY post on the subject YOU started. (Why would one continue to argue with an eight year old by the way?) but you haven't commented on my jabs about whether or not you are a man, a woman, or some strange something or another in between the two. I know, this fact doesn't necessarily mean ANYTHING at all. I do however find it odd nonetheless.

    Oh by the way. You like to keep calling me "Tough Guy". I suppose in your weak way you're trying to say that I'm some sort of bully. I know you like re-reading my posts, so do it again and find me a quote in where I say anything about EVER doing anything violent unless it's either in direct defense or in retaliation for something that could have easily killed me or left me maimed for life. I have in twenty or more years of cycling actually only had ONE physical altercation with anyone. That's the one I wrote about wherein I threw my bike at a guys Volvo. And, he did have it coming, and I was in fear of my safety when I did this, and, it was a reaction that didn't require forethought. It happened as a matter of self-preservation and instinct. As far as I could tell he was making the first moves required to physically attack me. Being that he had already proven that he had no problem in taking my life in his hands, I took his actions very seriously. So, if defending myself makes me a "Tough Guy", then I will from this point on take the moniker you've given me as a compliment. Thank you and as always, if you want more you know how to procure it. Bye Bye.

    P.S.(A long one.) Of course the passage you chose to quote was severely out of context. (One of many weak tactics used by a desperate individual who knows he's getting trounced) What I meant by that quote is this. I don't have the kind of personality that will allow me to turn the other cheek so to speak if someone throws a full "Big Gulp" cup full of ice out the window at me whilst moving at approximately sixty miles an hour. I was doing nothing more than riding in the bike lane when this projectile whizzed past my left ear missing it by not more than one inch. I was able to find these high school yahoos after they had parked in their driveway. ( I know DUD BORE, I couldn't have possibly done this right?) They came out to find me writing down their license plate number. When they asked nervously what I was doing I simply replied, "If you smell smoke in the middle of the night, you'll know who tossed the match." This comment was meant to do what I've mentioned a number of times regarding this subject. It was meant to hopefully get these kids to think twice before doing something that stupid again. No I didn't burn the house down, nor did I ever entertain the thought. It was just blowing smoke. I shudder to think what would have happened if I had been hit in the head by two pounds of ice traveling 60 MPH. (By the way, it scared the hell out of me and I was shaking during this confrontation. I guess if you face something even if it scares you then.....)

    What would you have done DUD BORE? Stomped your feet and got on the computer to tell everyone how annoyed you were? Or would you have done something similar? Or even just called the police? Would that revenge action have made you a "Tough Guy" too? Yes calling the police has a degree of vengeance to it. No one is immune to the desire to "get even" when someone has done something really nasty to them.
     
  19. Edudbor

    Edudbor New Member

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    Blah, blah, blah - I stopped reading at 'Mr. Dud Bore'. I think that sums up your maturity level.


     
  20. Edudbor

    Edudbor New Member

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    It's actually been a while since this thread got started (or since I got into it) and (a few minior bicycle problems aside) I am very much enjoying riding. I've made the transition from riding around the block a few times to making the 11 mile ride into work. It hasn't been 6 months yet; but I do feel like I have a better understanding of the issue - (the 'best' available route between my home and work has three different places where I simply don't have any good place to be (no bike path/very small or no shoulder, etc...)).

    Anyway, I do think your explanation is interesting. I know that, personally, I've never given any thought to the season or time of day when I'm driving and see a bicyclist (unless maybe if it's exceptionally cold and I used (now I'm planning on riding my bicycle throughout the winter, lol) to think, 'Wow, that guys is crazy'.

    So far, all of my riding on the bigger, faster roads has been between 7am-8am and 5pm-6pm, during the summer. I'll be keeping an eye out to see if things change as we get into fall/winter.

    Having said that, the area I live in seems to be rather bicycle friendly; so I'm hoping I won't have any trouble.

     
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