Why do folks need to believe Armstrong

[thunder]

Why do some folks, let's face it, mostly Americans, need to believe that he was clean.



I will posit some possibilities.

1. He actually was clean, they are right.

2. They suspect he doped, but feel a process determines opinion versus an individual

3. Vicarious, they aspire to the alpha status only in their dreams is it manifested

4. Nationalism, existential collective culture of America, that creates adversaries where there are none, and attempts to place things in black-white categories like good and evil. Armstrong is a representative of America giving it to the old world countries who no longer have influence as far as yankees are concerned. A metaphor if you will.

5. American dream, born out of the collective culture again. Note: Barry Bonds and Marian Jones and tim Montgomery are less likely to get their dues in this paradigm, strictly for the boy next door done good(sic). This channels many facets of (3) yet is more an external influence on the individual versus endogenous.

6. Cannot separate the cancer philanthropy and the sport.

7. Similar to (2/6) suspect he doped but the means justify ends wrt the good done for cancer community.



America is not the only country that likes to believe their heroes are clean and not doped, and only the former Communist bloc and the People's Republic dope. They are not the only country to hold heroes on a pedestal. But there has been a paucity of investigative journalism in the popular media and the NT Times has only taken to associate wire reporting of the Armstrong issue. Does big business have a stake in this?

 

[JRMDC]

Why do some folks, let's face it, mostly Belgians, need to believe that Museeuw was clean.

Well, OK, I have taken the liberty of making a few adjustments, so this isn't exactly what thunder said.

(I feel it necessary to state here that I am not an Armstrong defender. Just having fun with a post.)

 

[thunder]

Well, OK, I have taken the liberty of making a few adjustments, so this isn't exactly what thunder said.

(I feel it necessary to state here that I am not an Armstrong defender. Just having fun with a post.)

but do the Belgians believe Museeuw? I don't think they do.

Now, if you ask them about Boonen, and the latest evidence on Lefevre, that is an entirely different matter, most likely they will put their collective heads in the sand, whilst sticking fingers in ears and yelling "MMMMMMAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR"

 

[tcklyde]

I am actually amazed by the number of Americans who don't follow cycling who think that Armstrong dopes. I mean the man gets ZERO bad press in the states, other than the occasional story about how he never tested positive. People just don't trust athletes anymore. See, for example, The Onion's "cheat-to-win" bracelet. Maybe that was directed at Floyd, but being a yellow wristband, it certainly taints Lance, too.

 

[cheapie]

as an american, i'd venture to guess that only 1/30 people here could name another current/recent cyclist.

and for those who know anything at all about lance, his name is definately synonomous with cancer survivorship. they don't know anything about epo, testing, ratios, any race other than the TDF, etc.

also, they only know the clips that are aired once/week during the tdf. the smiling, friendly, winning LA. and the only other coverage they see during the year is his cancer-related activities. they don't see the intense, sometimes mean, fierce, etc. LA that cycling fans from everywhere else have had exposure to.

and the reason they see him against the world is that americans historically haven't been any good at cycling and we have been underdogs. add to that coverage of the initial french dislike of him and you have a recipe for ignorance.

also, i'd hazard a guess and say that most american cycling fans do think LA doped. but they'd also say that everyone else did as well. not that it makes it right for LA to do so, but that if it's an industry-wide problem, why did everyone jump on LA? and the way the info was leaked really hurt any chance of his being seen as a bad guy here.

 

[Farmguy]

From what I read, and a lot of it on this board, people who think he did dope, are just ****** he doped better(if he really did) than their favorite rider. Until the govering body of cycling strips him of a title, hes clean. No matter how much of "I have a friend whos second cousin's ex-wifes sister told him......" blah blah blah





Did that stir the pot any?

 

[patch70]

Did that stir the pot any?

No. You seem to have mis-read the views of most of the contributors that the "Lance-lovers" like to call "Lance-haters", or describe as "anti-American" etc. (This is based on the "you're either with us or against us" made famous by another Texan).

In actual fact, most of us non-Lance-lovers are against doping by anyone, regardless of their team or nationality. Most of us are realistic enough to know that all top GC riders and most ProTour riders are doping.

Personally, I find it particularly galling that Lance makes so much money with the PR story that he's the only cyclist that ever trained and the implied suggestion that he was the only clean cyclist. When he had 7 positive dope tests and had empty vials of other doping agents found in his team's hotel rooms as well as all the personal testimonies, clearly he's as full of sh!t as Ullrich, Basso, Mancebo, Heras etc.

 

[bomber]

Personally, I find it particularly galling that Lance makes so much money with the PR story that he's the only cyclist that ever trained and the implied suggestion that he was the only clean cyclist.

Lance doesnt make lots of money because he tells everyone he is clean. Lance is successful and makes loads of money because he won the Tour 7 times... People wouldn't buy anything or support him if all he ever did was fetch water bottles for the team!

 

[whiteboytrash]

Lance doesnt make lots of money because he tells everyone he is clean. Lance is successful and makes loads of money because he won the Tour 7 times... People wouldn't buy anything or support him if all he ever did was fetch water bottles for the team!

I don't know... there are a lot of rubber necks out there buying Hincapie sporting wear and he's never won anything......

 

[patch70]

Lance doesnt make lots of money because he tells everyone he is clean. Lance is successful and makes loads of money because he won the Tour 7 times... People wouldn't buy anything or support him if all he ever did was fetch water bottles for the team!

Have you bought (& read) his books?
Have you seen how much BristolMyersSquibb pay him to promote their chemotherapeutics?

 

[thunder]

Have you bought (& read) his books?
Have you seen how much BristolMyersSquibb pay him to promote their chemotherapeutics?

I do believe he co-opted the illness as his marketing trope.

See http://outside.away.com/magazine/0498/9804lance.html

His manager talks of an apotheosis.



See: Floyd Landis hip replacement, strategically leaked to the NY Times. Good spinners got it in the weekend magazine and the Friday news edition.

See: Tyler Hamilton Foundation, and the broken collarbone.

Both milked albeit on a continuum far down the scale.

Floyd had his Cycleops Powertap deal, not Nike, not yet atleast (speaking retospectively. Floyd had his "Smith and Nephew" biotech company, the second largest European company by market cap, over a billion, producing prosthetics. This for the hip. He had them lined up, can just imagine him spruiking this on NBC Today, Letterman, Leno. It all fell in the heap.

Just big business. And big doping.

 

[bomber]

Have you bought (& read) his books?
Have you seen how much BristolMyersSquibb pay him to promote their chemotherapeutics?

I stand by what I said. Would people pay him so much or buy his books (however filled with propaganda the pages are) if he was just a run of the mill mid pack rider. The answer is no they wouldn't. Without even entering the debate of how he achieved his victories it is his success on the bike that affords him the lifestyle he now has.

Anyone who believes that any cometitive sport doesn't have some skeletons in the closet is severly deluded as to human nature and the financial rewards offered through success.

 

[jhuskey]

I don't know... there are a lot of rubber necks out there buying Hincapie sporting wear and he's never won anything......

Hincapie doesn't have the Livestrong aura about him but I understand that he has been inspired by one of George Bush's initiatives and will start the " no cyclist left behind program".
He has the means and drive to come in last place now.

 

[helmutRoole2]

I don't know... there are a lot of rubber necks out there buying Hincapie sporting wear and he's never won anything......

I've got tell you though, that Hincapie clothing is pretty nice. Besides, it's the brother of Hincapie, not George, for whom the clothing line is named, and I'm sure when people buy it they are fully of aware of this... not.

It is nice stuff, though.

 

[Felt_Rider]

I don't know... there are a lot of rubber necks out there buying Hincapie sporting wear and he's never won anything......

I guess I must be one of them

My club gear is from the Hincapie line and my LBS sells primarily Hincapie and I bought a pair of his bib shorts yesterday. Apart from who it is the gear is pretty descent stuff for the price. (however, I do not have any or plan to have any Disco stuff in my collection )

Back to the topic

 

[helmutRoole2]

From what I read, and a lot of it on this board, people who think he did dope, are just ****** he doped better(if he really did) t

I'm ****** because he was a pig about it. Seven tour wins? Come on, dude. Put the syringe down already.

 

[IH8LANCE]

Personally, I find it particularly galling that Lance makes so much money with the PR story that he's the only cyclist that ever trained and the implied suggestion that he was the only clean cyclist.

What? Armstrong never suggested or implied that he's the only clean rider. On the contrary, the reason everyone in this miserable forum insists he's to be singled out for criticism is because he has always defended "the sport" as largely clean despite mounting evidence to the contrary. That's one of the problems with professional cycling, and has been since before Armstrong. If you're a successful cyclist, you're less likely to jump on the "cycling is dirty" bandwagon, because you are essentially devaluing your own achievements. Who wants to be the best in a sport where doing well merely raises suspicion that you're cheating?

Conversely, underachievers who need an excuse are going to be less guarded about throwing around doping allegations to confirm that the entire enterprise is a sham.

To my knowledge, this sport is the only one where success breeds contempt merely by the achievement of succeeding. That's why the biggest names in the sport -- Armstrong, Basso, Ullrich, etc., get their names dragged throught the mud of the media --- who gives a **** if tomorrow someone said Laszlo Bodrogi is doping? The point is, everyone knows that everyone dopes, so it only raises headlines if you accuse the ones who are winning.

 

[fbircher]

To my knowledge, this sport is the only one where success breeds contempt merely by the achievement of succeeding. That's why the biggest names in the sport -- Armstrong, Basso, Ullrich, etc., get their names dragged throught the mud of the media --- who gives a **** if tomorrow someone said Laszlo Bodrogi is doping? The point is, everyone knows that everyone dopes, so it only raises headlines if you accuse the ones who are winning.

To be clear I understand your position - you agree that doping is widespread, but you're angry that the criticism is focused disproportionately on the top contenders such as Lance? If so, then I agree with you that even many of the losers are probably doping too, but it doesn't surprise me that more scrutiny is directed at the top of contenders - they are the ones profiting the most from a corrupt system. I'm curious to know your opinion about this: if you believe that cycling is a sport where "everyone knows that everyone dopes," do you think the fans who'd like to see a clean sport should spread their criticism evenly across the peleton, or should they simply accept the status quo and not critcize anyone at all?

 

[cPritch67]

I don't know... there are a lot of rubber necks out there buying Hincapie sporting wear and he's never won anything......

Not to diss GH, but I can honestly say that I have never seen anyone wearing his brand around here (So California).

 

[whiteboytrash]

Not to diss GH, but I can honestly say that I have never seen anyone wearing his brand around here (So California).

Its very stylish... I can see the kids of NY city getting into the gear of a bloke who always finishes 7th or falls off his bike......

http://www.hincapiesports.com/details.php?ccode=110&scode=RTS-RTMC06