Why do people feel the need to start and perpetuate DOPING rumors?

Discussion in 'Doping in Cycling' started by mjolnir2k, Feb 24, 2005.

  1. mjolnir2k

    mjolnir2k New Member

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    I constantly see people post threads regarding doping. While I am fine with discussing the perils of drug use and professional athletics, I just don't understand why certain individuals think they have the right to post un-factual innuendo as truths.

    Do I believe that there is doping in the world of sports, absolutely. Do I have disdain for those PROVEN to have used performance enhancing substances, definitley.

    That being said, if there is NO PROOF other than speculation regarding any individual, then it's not right to point fingers just because some athletes are more successful than others.

    I think there is a lot of anti-American, Anti-Lance sentiment on these forums and certain people are so desperate to make excuses as to why their favorite riders are not winning that they have to make up stories.

    If there is concern about the dangers of doping, then why not just stick to that aspect of it. Why is there a CONSTANT mud slinging about athletes who have NEVER tested positive for ANY banned substance?

    I think it's hatred and jealousy that fuels these people and they hide behind a cloak of "we are concerned for the health and safety of the children", when they are really just all about smearing Lance's name.

    I am sure I will get lot's of replies that state I am out of touch with what's going on in Pro Cycling, but at least I can stick to the facts.
     
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  2. Perro Loco

    Perro Loco New Member

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    I tend to agree with you. A lot of what has been posted about "proof" borders on "conspiracy thoeries" . Some features I posted in another thread

    Detractors believe
    1. Not backed up by sufficient evidence.
    2. Phrased in such a way as to be unfalsifiable.
    3. Improbably complex.
    Subscribers believe

    1. Those powerful people involved in the conspiracy hide, destroy, or obfuscate evidence.
    2. Skeptics / apologists are not (in their opinion) prepared to keep an open mind.
    3. Skeptics / apologists may be politically motivated and have a vested interest in the status quo.
    If you look at this a lot that has been presented as "proof" and defense of this "proof" falls into these categories.
     
  3. tcklyde

    tcklyde New Member

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    Ugh. Did we really need *another* doping thread?
     
  4. BanditManDan

    BanditManDan New Member

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    I agree, at least this thread is dealing with peoples opinions as opposed to rumors & sudo-facts based on opinion.
     
  5. micron

    micron New Member

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    so the ex-pro quoted in velo news saying that Epo made him capable of pedalling at high cadence for long periods of time was dealing in conjecture or fact?
     
  6. mjolnir2k

    mjolnir2k New Member

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    No, it means that he has admitted to using EPO and any discussions about him using EPO are factual and therefore fair game.

    It does not mean, however, that because one pro admitted to it that ALL are guilty of it, which is what tends to happen around here (one rider in particular).

    That is what I am saying. Discuss those proven to be guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt to your hearts content, but don't paint everyone with the same brush for convenience sake.
     
  7. snyper0311

    snyper0311 New Member

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    Well done mjolnir2k! You speak the truth! I do have to say though, it is only two or three individuals who seem to have a bad disdain for anything American. They know who they are! I'm sure you will come under fire for this but you had the Cajones to get it out there!
     
  8. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    Rumors? I got 12 dead cyclists in 24 months, I have 16 year olds on EPO, I have females going EPO positive in triathlons, I have 4 World Champion going down to doping in 2004 alone, I have David Millar calling everyone a liar and a rumor hound---when it was HE who was the fraud.


    When you watch the TDF you are observing both a drama and an active chemistry experiment. A lot of folks are simply unaware of that.

    Bob Roll, Phil Liggett & Paul Sherwin all know a lot more than what is permitted to go out via the media feeds. Never offend the advertisers and stick with the script.

    Disclosure of drug use is more important than training routines and it is the only way to understand the whole truth about what think you know.

    Cover up are both tedious and fraudulent.


    Hatred & jealousy? Who wants to die from drug abuses? Do you?
     
  9. BanditManDan

    BanditManDan New Member

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    I couldn't have said it better myself.....so I won't.

    Dan.
     
  10. BanditManDan

    BanditManDan New Member

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    Perhaps your missing the point. Nobody is saying that the atheletes that get caught are un-true or fictional. What IS being said is that too many people are claiming that others are doping when there is no proof to back it up. Bottom line here is that some people are addicted to unverifiable Speculation. We need to stick with facts and not rumors.
     
  11. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    Let me express the issue another way. In light of the extensive public scandals--few of which were triggered by doping control, and the words of Champions such as Greg Lemond, Andy Hampsten, Francesco Moser, Eddie Merckx, Fausto Coppi, Jacques Anquetil, Alex Zulle, the 1998 Festina squad testimony, TVM & Bansesto personnel, and Jesus Manzano & Philippe Gaumont confessions;

    in light of all these people saying that doping is a standard practice, is it NOT A RUMOR that there are clean athletes racing in Tour de France?

    The notion that TDF athletes are not on daily medications is impossible to believe unless you can ignore ex-winners and World Champions as well as skip over the premature deaths and doping scandals involved Juniors and Seniors alike.

    btw: Shane Perkins was announced as stimulant positive at the Junior Worlds last summer. So he will now be DQed.

    Looks like everyone but Lance is on drugs.

    I say the rumor is the myth of "clean racing". I agree, lets focus on the doping facts, not the rumors---or mythology of Corinthian competition.
     
  12. mjolnir2k

    mjolnir2k New Member

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    Sigh, we've already argued these points in 2 seperate threads and you are still oblivious to what my point is.

    YOU do not have ANY dead cyclists, YOU do not have World Champions going down, YOU do not have any connection to David Millar (or anyone else for that matter) because YOU have no connection to any of these people.

    How do YOU know what Bob Roll, Phil Liggett & Paul Sherwin know or do not know. Have YOU personally spoken to them? Do they write their secret thought to YOU?

    YOU persist in painting an entire sport with the same brush and have no discretionary ability to discern truth from rumor.

    If YOU hate those who cycle so much, why don't YOU remove yourself from it's influence and find another hobby to criticize.

    Recognize it's YOU who perpetuates rumor while solving nothing. It's YOU who seek to denigrate the sport for your own pleasure while illuminating nothing. It's YOU who harbor your own hatred for certain individuals and allow that hatred to color your opinions.

    Is there doping in sports, absolutely. Do YOU know who the dopers are, absolutely NOT. YOU never have, but apparently that is not enough to stop YOU from casting a bad light on all.

    once again..for good measure:
    is doping BAD..YES IT IS, but NOT ALL CYCLISTS USE DRUGS, SOME OF THEM ACTUALLY ARE THAT TALENTED. I realize this is beyond your ability to comprehend.
     
  13. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    Bszt! And you would be wrong--which is your best attribute.

    Name the clean cyclists from the 2004 TDF start list.

    You are perpetuating rumors and myths. Shame on you! Santa Claus won't be bringing you any gifts this year.

    btw: Did you know that Olympic badmitten athletes use steroids? And race walkers use HGH & EPO?

    Is the TDF more stressful than Olympic badmitten?
     
  14. mjolnir2k

    mjolnir2k New Member

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    That's MY point..I Can't name the clean cyclists any more than YOU can name the dirty ones. Because NEITHER of us knows for a fact. The difference is that I don't pass rumor as fact like you do.

    If I were you, then I would say that EVERY cyclist is clean because Lance did not test positive for doping, right? that's how your logic works...

    How about this test of your logic:
    YOU are a pedophile! You work with teens right? I know for a FACT that there have been people who worked with teens and who have been arrested for molesting them. YOU work with teens, so by YOUR logic YOU are a pedophile who molests teens.

    Idiotic, isn't it?...NOW DO YOU GET IT?????
     
  15. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    Lance's doctor is convicted of malpractice specifically because he doped athletes. Where is the rumor?

    In addition, Ferrari explained his possession of prozac tablets as necessary for Axel Merckx's treatments. Another fact that you are unaware of.

    The DHEA was for his grandmother, the viagra was for his father. The jury decided Lance's performance coach was a liar and convicted him accordingly. Lance did not need a 10 year relationship to know this stuff--lots of non-Ferrari clients knew it.

    If I am a member of NAMBLA (sp?) spent time at Neverland and hang out with convicted criminals, it is fair for you to assume that I am dirty. Not unreasonable at all.

    Idiot to think as you do.

    You choice to call fact rumors if they threaten you fantacy. I understand your problem and medication is readily available for it, with or without prescription. Can pigs fly?
     
  16. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    Lance must deal with Lance. No different than Barry Bonds. If you are going to deny vresus plaed "no comment"---stop shooting yourself in the foot with dirty associations, poor judgment and bad behavior.

    Lance admitted to possession of Actovegin (calf blood) and insulin during the 2000 TDF. He wrote this admission on his very own web site in December 2000, also threatening to boycott the 2001 TDF unless the witchhunt stopped.

    Lance then moved to Spain from Nice after the police appeared on a "surprise visit". In Spain there are no doping police units, no worries. Too bad David Millar did not move another 1,000 meters into Spain, else he would still be free to race in 2005. That was really dumb.
    Lance admitted to a 10 year "performance coaching" relationship with Michele Ferrari, a convicted doper of athletes. He did so only after David Walsh called him on it and had Lance's hotel bills and lodging dates.

    Lance wrote that Richard Pound was an incompetent when all he and WADA were doing was promoting public awareness of a widespread problem of cheating with PEDs and adverse health practices it promotes. WADA has little money or authority to act.
    It can only speak and print list of illegal drugs and ask athletes to sign a Code of Ethics---something they have refused to do until the Olympics (IOC)made it a condition of admission in 2004. 5 years of foot dragging.

    Lance called Filippo Simieoni a liar despite his sworn testimony in a court of law.

    Lance told Christopher Bassons to quit the 1999 TDF because of his public assertions that NOTHING changed in the peloton from the 1998 doping nightmare.

    Lance has four (4) former teammates who claim to have been doped as juniors. All aged 17 in 1990.
    Injections of 2-4 times per day not counting the oral medications.

    Three (3) of these kids eventually got dread diseases.
    Only Lance recovered and became famous.

    Lance was found to have a corticosteriod in his urine in 1999. 2nd place Alez Zulle was NOT found to have any corticosteroids--despite being an admitted user of this product at high levels (30 milligrams per day spread out over 12 hours)

    No testing for human growth hormones meant that any dosage level is allowed.

    Daily oral easter eggs of 150-300 milligrams of testoserone chased with female fertility hormone Clomid can also pass a urine test (T/E ratio) by adding hCG to boost the denominator and stay within the 6:1 ratio allowed. 2.5:1 is normal, but extra allowances are boosted for people with great work ethics or with TUEs (therapeutic use exemptions)

    David Millar was quoted in Pro Cycling as saying that only Lance called him after his Eprix (EPO) admission telling him to" Keep his head up, it is only a speed bump."

    Does this prove that Lance is a pedophile?

    No, but it does establish that Lance enjoys the company of dopers, anemia, anabolic and anti-inflammatory, drugs, corrupt doping physicians, and despises the company of "doping whistle blowers", doping compliance leaders, sickly ex-junior teammates, authors and journalist who write about PEDs.

    Sounds like how a drug addict would behave?

    That is hardly an unreasonable or idiotic conclusion.

    These are not rumors, they were publicly reported facts, many confirmed by Lance himself. They are what they are.

    They paint a picture and it is unclean.
     
  17. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    No one is suggesting that all cyclists are dopeurs.

    Some cyclists are dopeurs.
    Some cyclists palmares and career details, suggest doping.

    No one has claimed that every single professional cyclist is doping.

    Evidence suggests that some of them are dopeurs.
    And people are free to express views about doping.
    Your lot call it freedom of speech, as far as I remember.
     
  18. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    In corporate America---the chief underwriters of professional and Olympic sport--we refer to it as a commercial advertisement---or if the message appears too disturbing or real---we call it; Shoot the messenger only if name calling, referring to them as a jealous idiot, full of hatred, pedophile and other hyper defensive and meanspirted tactics do not work to discredit the offender offering up public data to futher annoy people into connecting the dots.


    And while I would love to believe that at least one professional TDF rider might not use medications/preparations on a daily basis---my personal research is that none do. Even the so-called clean riders uses corticosteroids, sleeping pills, and stimlulants from time to time. So a clean rider just uses lower dosages or lower frequencies than do the champion riders.

    So too with the Greyhounds and ponies.

    One friend of mine said to me; "It's all about the definitions" You can redefine doping into rejuvenation if you try hard enough.

    Or two double Vodka Martinis every night is a NOT drinking problem for many alcoholics.

    Who are we to judge them?
     
  19. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    Not to muddy the waters here, but when I discuss this subject, I have in mind
    performance enhancing drugs, such as EPO.
    I also include HGH and blood doping and genetic engineering.

    In a strict legal sense, 20 cups of coffee would put one over the caffeine limit.
    While this was deemed to be drug use (and performance enhancing), it's hardly up there with EPO, HGH etc.

    I think that the majority of pros are using stuff.
    If this stuff is to simply survive in the peloton, it is understandable, if not excusable.

    But other cyclists are using stuff which cheats their fellow cyclists from podium places, prize money, records : and the drug culture which supports and nourishes and affirms these athletes, and their performances, cascades
    downwards through the professional ranks, thus perpetuating and sustaining
    drug usage at the lower end of the peloton.
     
  20. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

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    Right on Limerickman: I agree wholeheartedly, in theory only. Those waters are alread polluted so you cannot muddy them further.

    As a practical matter, the "human survival psychcology" is nowhere more powerful than in elite cycling, a team sport of peer influence and determination.

    I have had many professional racers tell me that so long as there are within doping compliance, they are clean.

    If hematocrit level allowed is 50%---then all that matters if blood is drawn---and it seldom ever is---then their blood must be 50%. That's the rule.

    Testosterone supplements are illegal---but they are nearly impossible to detect. So how is a cheater found out?

    HGH is not detectable---and that makes it "legal" for many athletes.

    Caffeine suppositories were very common ten years ago----the Festina Team certainly carried large volumes of caffeine along with the Belgian Mix (clear liquid of heroin, caffeine, cocaine, morphine and corticosteroids) in 10, 15, and milligram vials.

    Today, with the improvement in HBOCs hematocrit levels can be run lower than 50% whilst gaining big boosts of endurance power.

    With thinners (oral Asaflow) and vasodilators (viagra)
    blood pressure, viscosity, hematocrit and blood flow/efficiency can all be dialed in for a Time Trial or for a 6 hour stage.

    With all of these factors coming into play along with enormous financial pressure and peer pressure brought to bear-----It is not humanly possible for an athlete---no matter how talented or determined to avoid using these powerful trauma solutions.

    If you tried to resist your fellow teammates would how a cow and resent you. Never trusting you and making loyal and selfless team work impossible.


    That is why Tyler Hamiton can be on the very same squad as Oscar Camenzind and Alex Zulle. They are all of the very same ilk. They have no choice.

    So too with David Millar and Cedric Vasseur.

    So too as Cedric Vasseur and Lance Armstrong and Tyler Hamilton, three USPO alumni buddies.

    And once you accept drugs as a solution---the very next thing you become is; A bald face liar! All doper deny using drugs---even when caught red handed. They never admit it----except in a very few extreme cases (Festina, TVM, and Millar) Nobody is measuring performance results by stimulants over HGH. You injesct whatever the doc tells you--and the rest is history. Winners, losers and worker bees.

    Since testosterone, corticosteroids, stimulants and EPO and HGH can all be flown under doping controls--they are accepted as rejuvenators allowed in sport.

    The peloton is one fraterity, not several. One unit of Gladiators. They all live by the sword and they die by the sword too.

    btw: did you read that another cyclist died on Monday?

    This time it was 43 year old Alexandre Zinoviev, now a USA citizen of Ohio. Moved here in 1990. He was a winner of several team time trial world championships as well as numerous stage victories in the Giro and other big stage races.

    Alex died of intestinal cancer, not uncommon for cyclists. Anquetil died of pancreatic cancer, Lance had testicular, Lance two teammates have deceases which can morph to gastric cancer.

    Anyway, we have 12 unnatural cycling deaths in 24 months now, not counting new illnesses.

    Only the fans can debate which drugs are acceptable and which are the really good charges. The riders cannot tell---they just want success.
     
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