Why do people like VDB

[Debruyne]

"Kenny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > "Phil Stone" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Because VDB is still the greatest talent to come out of Belgium in
recent
> > > years,,,,with or without drugs.
> > >
> > > Phil
> >
> > Are Belgians reluctant to venture an opinion on Boonen, or is he viewed
as
> > having less talent than VDB?
>
> Here in Belgium there's never been talked about Boonen having more or less talent than VDB. Boonen
> was a great rider in the youth categories. VDB too, but he got a lot more publicity even when he
> was only 17 years. I think the cause of that is that VDB has allways been supported is the Flemish
> and the Walloon media. Boonen only got some publicity in the flemish papers when he was an espoir.
> It's a fact that VDB turned pro when he was only 19 year. They are both different riders. Boonen
> is typically a rider for the classics of the north. A possible worldcup winner. VDB has more
> possibilities. When he was a youth rider he was concidered to be once the winner of the tour the
> france. Right now we know that won't happen but he still can make the difference on other tracks
> than Boonen. He's able to win L-B-L, he's able to ride top 10 in Tour , Giro or Vuelta, and he
> even won Paris-Nice. Those are things that Boonen cannot do. You just have to watch the difference
> in their physical building. Boonen is really a big guy (over 1m80, certainly 75kg), has thighs
> like trees, he's one block of power. VDB is much smaller, much lighter,is very fragile and slim.
> It's almost unbelievable that he has so much power in his legs. I think VDB has more talent and
> possibilities but here we don't compare the two, we are just happy have both riders.

Nice analysis.

 

[Danny Callen]

"Phil Stone" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Because VDB is still the greatest talent to come out of Belgium in recent years,,,,with or
> without drugs.
>
> Phil
>
>

I'm thinking cycling fans are starting to think all great cyclist are on drugs and that it just so
happens that VDB gets caught. It almost seems like a "so whatt" atititude. He reminds me of
Eminem, lots of talent with a shitty atitude. I can respect his talent but I have no respect for a
shitty atitude.

Danny Callen

 

[Bret Wade]

hold my beer and watch this... wrote:
> "Bret Wade" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>
>>VDB actually looks pretty good compared to those three. They've all been convicted of violent
>>crimes within the last year. You really admire them? I don't.
>
>
> Brett,
>
> Please post a reference to the violent crime that Allen Iverson was convicted of in the last year.
>
> Thanks in advance, Brian

My mistake. Iverson was arrested but never brought to trial.

http://www.alleniversonlive.com/news/july2002.shtml

Bret

 

[Amit]

"hold my beer and watch this..." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > I wouldn't criticize VdB if he was a troublemaker and still brought his
> "A"
> > game to the competition like Allen Iverson does.
>
> I never thought Iverson was the trouble maker that everyone makes him out to be. Yeah, the guy got
> into trouble in his past and he likes to party (especially during the off season). Mostly because
> of his image (corn rows, tattoos, ebonics, posse) I think that the press really tries to play up
> every hint of a disagreement between him and Larry Brown.

I agree 100%. People like to pidgeonhole him because of his image, but he's obviously a hardworking
player and he's pretty intelligent and well spoken (most of the time) during interviews.

Randy Moss on the other hand by all accounts is an asshole, who is a great athlete but will never
fufill his potential on the field.

>
>
> > His difficulties have led to him not bringing it. He had phenomenal
> results
> > in his first few years as a pro and has wallowed ever since.
>
> I interpret this as when he was young and took all the drugs that he could get his hands on, he
> rode great. Now that the heats on him he doesn't ride as well.
> >
> > OTOH, his "the clenbutorol was for my dog" excuse was one of the best
> lines
> > ever. It would make a good t-shirt (only in America no one would know what it meant). It would
> > be fun to get that printed and wear it around Belgium.
> >
> >

As a cycling fan, the main disappointment is not being able to see a guy like VDB live up to his
potential. He could have won many World Cups by now if he wasn't so fragile and messed up.

His inconsistency though is more of a problem for his team directors than it is for me.

-Amit

 

[Br]

> I agree 100%. People like to pidgeonhole him because of his image, but he's obviously a
> hardworking player and he's pretty intelligent and well spoken (most of the time) during
> interviews.
>

Look, I'm a Sixers fan, I love watching the kid play, I root for him everytime out, but he's
limited, and he's limited by himself, and he doesn't even know it. The kid's in his late 20s and he
has yet to figure out that the gains you make as a player come through practice, practice, practice.
Did you forget that rant against practice he made after last year's season? It's great that he works
his ass off on the court, but he's never expanded his game, because players expand their games in
practice, during the season some, but mostly in the offseason. AI hardly practices during the season
and he doesn't even sniff a court in the off season. And one additional problem to his aversion to
practice is that the kid is such a unique player (shooting 25 times a game) that it is difficult to
play with him. Practice is the time for the other players to work on plays and perfect playing with
him. When he doesn't practice, that can't happen. It's one of the reasons why the last several
seasons the Sixers offense devolves to AI breaking down his man while the other four guys stand
around and watch.

My point: I like AI, but he has earned the abuse he gets.

 

[Nick Burns]

I like him because he is a badass, and he may not be as guilty as most of you assume.

His excuse that the meds were for his dog was a lot more clever than you folks seem to understand.
In veterinary medicine, corticoids are the anti-inflammatory of choice. NSAIDS are rarely prescribed
for animals because of their expense.

Before my ex-wife ripped my finances to shreds, I used to have some AKC hunting dogs. Every time
there was a sign of soreness the vet gave the dogs some kind of corticoid and\or carisoprodol (a
very powerful muscle relaxer, especially considering the weight of the dogs relative to the dose).
In addition, having been through numerous reconstructive surgeries with residual pain that lasted
for many months, there is no way I would ever throw away my pain meds. After suffering all of the
pain that I have, there is a huge comfort in knowing that you still have some leftover.

Do MDs in Europe prescribe morphine for a broken wrist? I don't know. I also did not see the films
for his injuries and I have no idea what kind of pain he was in. In the US, it is not uncommon to
have morphine prescribed for back pain that lasts for more that a few months, but that was not the
case for VDB as far as I know. Then again, are we all so sure that he did not suffer from something
that justified its use? That seems a lot more likely than him obtaining it illicitly to enhance his
training. The only cyclists that I see that could possibly benefit from opiate abuse would be
ultra-endurance racers. I believe he used the morphine to get through his injury. I am not so sure
about the steroidal anti-inflammatory but I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. As far
as his egomaniacal behavior in his early years, he was not much worse than Armstrong and had much
better results during his early years and he seems a lot more even keeled these days.

The bottom line is he probably dabbled with some of the substances that were going around in the mid
to late 90s and after getting in trouble found the strength of character and self confidence to do
the work legally. He grew up, but others were not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I
think he is finally clean, and back for good. Boonen is not the heir apparent to Museeuw, VDB is.

"Kenny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > "Phil Stone" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Because VDB is still the greatest talent to come out of Belgium in
recent
> > > years,,,,with or without drugs.
> > >
> > > Phil
> >
> > Are Belgians reluctant to venture an opinion on Boonen, or is he viewed
as
> > having less talent than VDB?
>
> Here in Belgium there's never been talked about Boonen having more or less talent than VDB. Boonen
> was a great rider in the youth categories. VDB too, but he got a lot more publicity even when he
> was only 17 years. I think the cause of that is that VDB has allways been supported is the Flemish
> and the Walloon media. Boonen only got some publicity in the flemish papers when he was an espoir.
> It's a fact that VDB turned pro when he was only 19 year. They are both different riders. Boonen
> is typically a rider for the classics of the north. A possible worldcup winner. VDB has more
> possibilities. When he was a youth rider he was concidered to be once the winner of the tour the
> france. Right now we know that won't happen but he still can make the difference on other tracks
> than Boonen. He's able to win L-B-L, he's able to ride top 10 in Tour , Giro or Vuelta, and he
> even won Paris-Nice. Those are things that Boonen cannot do. You just have to watch the difference
> in their physical building. Boonen is really a big guy (over 1m80, certainly 75kg), has thighs
> like trees, he's one block of power. VDB is much smaller, much lighter,is very fragile and slim.
> It's almost unbelievable that he has so much power in his legs. I think VDB has more talent and
> possibilities but here we don't compare the two, we are just happy have both riders.

 

[Nick Burns]

Who has a lot to prove? VDB or Boonen? VDB has proven he can win any one day race when he is on
form. There is no comparison. Boonen me end up with a superior palmarers by the time they both
retire, but Boonen is star because of hope, not results. Dirk del Mol has more wins than Boonen.Not
to pick on Boonen, but give the guy some breathing room. This all reminds me of Jean Bernard and all
the pressure put on him on the basis of some good rides, a few days in yellow and one sensational
time trial win up the Ventoux. After that, the pressure became too much and he decided he was better
off as a domestique for Indurain. It was almost the same scenario for that other (he was part
Basque, what was his name?) TT phenom that rode for Castorama and looked like the great new French
hope until he disappeared for a year after getting fired for showing up with a beer gut and smelling
of cigar smoke. He then had to prove himself again on a div II team just to get a job for Banesto as
yet another French has been acting as domestique for Indurain. The Irony is that when the pressure
was finally off, he came alive again and was the only rider to come close to Indurain on the
extraordinary day in the long TT of the '92 Tour (when the French papers first called Miguel the
"Extra Terrestrial"). Anyway, my meandering point is that too much pressure is the kiss of death for
most athletes but especially cyclists, because as anyone that has ever even tried to win a race
knows, it sucks being marked and you need to have the strength to compensate for being marked and
the racing savvy to know how to use it to your advantage.

By the way, the World's you mention where he fell off (in Treviso? no, Verona? Some other ancient
Roman town?), he finished with two broken wrists. That would make it a bit hard to sprint or even
attack with force, much less get back on and ride. However, he did chase back and IIRC caught the
front group.

"EPREX" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Are Belgians reluctant to venture an opinion on Boonen, or is he viewed as having less talent
> than VDB?
>
> I think its too early to consider total potential for Boonen in respect of VDB.
>
> VDB has awesome talent, and he has wasted a few years, and along the way won some classics in
> spectacular manner. (ie ghent wevelgem, luik bastenaken luik) and he would have gone close to
> landing the world title if he hadnt fallen off in Italy a few years ago.
>
> Anyway, as said, this year he has a lot to prove.
>
>
>
> --
> >--------------------------<
> Posted via cyclingforums.com http://www.cyclingforums.com

 

[Kenny]

"Danny Callen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> I'm thinking cycling fans are starting to think all great cyclist are on drugs and that it just so
> happens that VDB gets caught. It almost seems like a "so whatt" atititude. He reminds me of
> Eminem, lots of talent with a shitty atitude. I can respect his talent but I have no respect for a
> shitty atitude.

This is ********. He doesn't have a shitty attitude and the comparison with Eminem sure is crazy. I
don't remember VDB stuffing his nose with cocaine.

 

[Kenny]

Bret Wade <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Kurgan Gringioni wrote: I have little respect for VDB, but the image of his ride in the '99 Ronde
> van Vlaanderen remains one of the most beautiful in cycling for me. He recovered from a crash to
> chase down Museeuw and Van Petegem in the final kilometers. Maybe if he'd won that sprint, things
> would have gone differently.

The most impressive thing I ever saw of VDB was during Liege-Bastogne-Liege 1999. On La Redoute, the
most difficult climb of the day, Bartoli tried to make a break. VDB takes Bartoli's rear wheel,
rides next to him, looks Bartoli in the eyes and sprints awy from Michele. Bartoli was mental
totally broken and we never saw him back in the race that year. VDB won with great superiority.

 

[Kenny]

"Nick Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> By the way, the World's you mention where he fell off (in Treviso? no, Verona? Some other ancient
> Roman town?), he finished with two broken wrists.

That was Verona 1999. He was the super-favourite after having won the points-jersey in the Vuelta
and two stage-wins. One of the two was an incredible win on the climb to the city of Avila where he
demolished Mikel Zarrabeitia.

 

[Bart]

Kenny wrote:

>
> This is ********. He doesn't have a shitty attitude and the comparison with Eminem sure is crazy.
> I don't remember VDB stuffing his nose with cocaine.

Then you snored too much yarself.

VDB's current problem is coca-cola, sez lefevere. he already looked slimmer than 2 weeks ago though.

 

[Bart]

Carl Sundquist wrote:

>
> Are Belgians reluctant to venture an opinion on Boonen, or is he viewed as having less talent
> than VDB?

YES. Museeuw et alii have played their part stressing VDB is "the biggest talent they ever
experienced" etc. The talent seen in VDB appeals to something very deep in the collective soul. I
think when he attacked the Eikenberg Saturday many many people were breathless on their couch.
Every sparkle is perceived as sublime beauty. its like he IS cycling or something. And as ever
squandering talent adds to mythology. And Belgian fans are pretty indifferent towards doping
stories anyway.

 

[Bart]

Kenny wrote:

> The most impressive thing I ever saw of VDB was during Liege-Bastogne-Liege 1999. On La Redoute,
> the most difficult climb of the day, Bartoli tried to make a break. VDB takes Bartoli's rear
> wheel, rides next to him, looks Bartoli in the eyes and sprints awy from Michele. Bartoli was
> mental totally broken and we never saw him back in the race that year. VDB won with great
> superiority.

People seem very influenced by what commentators say at particular moments. Yes, that was a
spectacular moment, but people forget VDB didnt get very far away there. Of course he flew over the
hills that day, and won easily after an attack on the last climb. But that La redoute moment was no
way decisive. And who says Bartoli was *mentally totally broken* ? Michel Wuyts, a commentator who
never raced himself. I never heard Bartoli requiring therapy though. Of course Bartoli then realized
somebody was stronger that day, but he has won races when not being the strongest before. The La
Redoute moment is a bit over-hyped, Kenny.

groeten

 

[Danny Callen]

"Kenny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Danny Callen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > I'm thinking cycling fans are starting to think all great cyclist are on drugs and that it just
> > so happens that VDB gets caught. It almost seems
like
> > a "so whatt" atititude. He reminds me of Eminem, lots of talent with a shitty atitude. I can
> > respect his talent but I have no respect for a
shitty
> > atitude.
>
> This is ********. He doesn't have a shitty attitude and the comparison with Eminem sure is crazy.
> I don't remember VDB stuffing his nose with cocaine.

Shitty atitude may have been the wrong term. Would "bad apple" be more appropriate? I don't remember
Eminem stuffing his nose with cocaine either. The comparison is more to do with the bad boy
presence..

Danny Callen

 

[Kenny]

Bart <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>
> And Belgian fans are pretty indifferent towards doping stories anyway.

Who says that? We aren't more or less indifferent than other fans. That's crazy talk, man. Let me
tell you that Lefevere signing Virenque didn't result in joy or whatever. Many people were very
sceptical about that act.

 

[Kenny]

Bart <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Kenny wrote:
>
> > The most impressive thing I ever saw of VDB was during Liege-Bastogne-Liege 1999. On La Redoute,
> > the most difficult climb of the day, Bartoli tried to make a break. VDB takes Bartoli's rear
> > wheel, rides next to him, looks Bartoli in the eyes and sprints awy from Michele. Bartoli was
> > mental totally broken and we never saw him back in the race that year. VDB won with great
> > superiority.
>
> People seem very influenced by what commentators say at particular moments. Yes, that was a
> spectacular moment, but people forget VDB didnt get very far away there. Of course he flew over
> the hills that day, and won easily after an attack on the last climb. But that La redoute moment
> was no way decisive. And who says Bartoli was *mentally totally broken* ? Michel Wuyts, a
> commentator who never raced himself. I never heard Bartoli requiring therapy though. Of course
> Bartoli then realized somebody was stronger that day, but he has won races when not being the
> strongest before. The La Redoute moment is a bit over-hyped, Kenny.
>
I understand what you say. It's true that moment wasn't decisive. But i was really talking about the
brutalness in the act, showing his domination, saying he's the best that day. I've never seen anyone
doing that so clearly. About the "mentally broken" state of Michele, it's obviously a guess. But the
fact is that we didn't see Michele, two times winner of LBL, back that day. I really believe that
has to do with him being crushed by VDB. Being the nr 1 of the world it should have been hard being
humiliated by a four year younger rider on the track where he dominated earlier.

groeten terug ----> www.johanmuseeuw.tk

 

[Carl Sundquist]

"Kenny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > The most impressive thing I ever saw of VDB was during Liege-Bastogne-Liege 1999. On La
> > > Redoute, the most difficult climb of the day, Bartoli tried to make a break. VDB takes
> > > Bartoli's rear wheel, rides next to him, looks Bartoli in the eyes and sprints awy from
> > > Michele. Bartoli was mental totally broken and we never saw him back in the race that year.
> > > VDB won with great superiority.
> >
> >
> I understand what you say. It's true that moment wasn't decisive. But i was really talking about
> the brutalness in the act, showing his domination, saying he's the best that day. I've never seen
> anyone doing that so clearly.

But it's nothing compared to THE LOOK.

 

[Bart]

"Kenny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> About the "mentally broken" state of Michele, it's obviously a guess. But the fact is that we
> didn't see Michele, two times winner of LBL, back that day.

Someone whispers in my ear Bartoli was 4th that day. That's not bad after a mental breakdown in the
last hour. Try to get the pictures before your mind... a final with Bartolei & Bettini, Boogerd and
Den Bakker....

 

[EPREX]

Bart clearly knows his race facts.

That man knows more than he tells !!

Respect

 

[Anonymous]

On Sun, 02 Mar 2003 07:24:25 GMT, "Kurgan Gringioni"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>

>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> >
>> >VdB's Doggie has not been bringing his "A" game for several years now.
>> >
>>
>> OK, I am not sure what you mean by that, but VDB seems to have done a great ride in Het Volk
>> today, supporting Museew and Bettini. I think that the other teams must have felt pretty stupid
>> after Lefevre had his riders attack.
>
>
>
>I meant the part that you snipped out:
>
>the palmares on his home page says:
>
>1995: 7 wins
>1996: 15 wins
>1997: 8 wins
>1998: 12 wins
>1999: 8 wins
>2000: 1 win
>2001: 0 wins
>2002: 0 wins
>
>

So, are you suggesting that VDB's ride in Het Volk is not valid?

I still am not sure what you meant by that. I did not snip your post out of malice, but I just don't
see what that has to do with his (drug-free, apparently) performance in Het Volk, and his potential
for the spring races.

sr