why does a sram derailleur cost $200?

[David]

In article <[email protected]>,
damyth <[email protected]> wrote:


> On some other days....
> "I've seen Shimano LX rear derailleurs fail on the first run down the
> mountain (and not just at Whistler): the body of one was snapped in
> half; the pins on another had worked themselves free and caused the
> derailleur to fail."

Then why would Shimano make a line called "SAINT"?

Incidentally, the Shimano SAINT will last a lot longer than the average
LX or XT under the same brutal trail conditions up at Whistler. Guess
how much a Saint rear der will cost?

> Is this firsthand experience with his own deraillers or hearsay? Even
> if true, these are *still* warranty issues.
>

Shimano will recommend this person to use a SAINT rear der -- that's
minium requirement if you plan to do this. They do not recommend a
regular LX or XT for these types of harsh riding.. I know -- some
people tried claiming and got fed up with the BS.. They went SRAM
instead as the cheaper and I suppose boycott attitude towards Shimano.

> Last I heard Shimano warranties their stuff for two years. Even if you
> buy a new derailler every two years at say $40 a pop, 10-12 years would
> have elapsed for the cost to equal the $200 SRAM derailler, and that's
> not even taking into account the time value of money.
>

Warranty is for a defect in the part. Wear and tear due to extreme
usage is not a defect in the part. That's why they designed the SAINT
line for this kind of riding, whereas, SRAM stuff was designed from the
ground up already for this.

A SAINT rear derailleur is tougher but not cheap. A SRAM X.7 cost
"LESS" than a Shimano LX rear der, beefier and last longer. You are
actually lasting longer, so it's actually cheaper to go SRAM. That's
why, a lot of serious mountain bikers use SRAM. Why go and buy a SAINT
rear der where the mounting system is akward and shifting poor to begin
with?

> And for what's it's worth, I ride at least 4 days a week (approx. 120
> m/wk. minimum) on the same bike, no play or pins out of place on mine,
> on a derailler that's now 10 yrs old. But I know enough to not claim
> that should be representative of everyone's experience.
>

If you are not subjecting your rear der to the same kind of abuse as
this guy does, then go with a cheaper rear der. But I guess you don't
know how difficult conditions are up at the Whistler mountain bike
park. Minimum requirement for a newbie to ride up there is a full set
of armour with a spine protector as being recommended!

 

[David]

In article <091220050415262267%[email protected]>, Luke
<[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> damyth <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Last I heard Shimano warranties their stuff for two years. Even if you
> > buy a new derailler every two years at say $40 a pop, 10-12 years would
> > have elapsed for the cost to equal the $200 SRAM derailler, and that's
> > not even taking into account the time value of money.
> >
> > And for what's it's worth, I ride at least 4 days a week (approx. 120
> > m/wk. minimum) on the same bike, no play or pins out of place on mine,
> > on a derailler that's now 10 yrs old. But I know enough to not claim
> > that should be representative of everyone's experience.
>
> The reviewer seems to go through derailleurs like socks! I've several
> lines of Shimano derailleurs are installed (Deore, Ultegra, 105, and
> Tiagara); they've logged tens of thousand of miles between them and are
> still going strong. This the first I've heard of their tendency to
> spontaneously deconstruct after 3 days use!
>

The terrain he is riding on will pretty much destroy any weak rear der.

I destroyed a LX and an XT while I was up there.. It's simply a cost
to factor in if you want to have some fun or a death wish I should
say..

The original poster was asking why should one buy an expensive rear der
as opposed to something really cheap..

It all boils down to the specific application you use.. In this type
of situations, Shimano will always recommend that you use a SAINT rear
der. They obviously do not want to replace a busted normal rear der
every 3 days or so as part of a warranty claim..

> Mind you, the reviewer is subjecting his equipment to some challenging
> MTB runs, not the less jarring - and destructive! - roadways my setups
> must tolerate.
>

My road bike still uses the original rear der, whereas my MTB is on the
5th rear der and my touring bike on my 3rd.

To address this issue, Shimano created the SAINT line.

 

[A.Lee]

<[email protected]> wrote:

> Mail order to the rescue. Veloce 9 speed cassette is $36. 10 speed is
> $60. Shipping is 15 Pounds flat rate. About $26. So you will have to
> order more than one cassette to make it pay. And other parts too.
> Only problem is they do not have the 9 speed 13-23 cassette I want.
> http://www.totalcycling.com/

You need to check out these then:
http://www.parker-international.co.uk

Usually the cheapest in the UK, with good service as well.
Alan.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

 

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

> If you are not subjecting your rear der to the same kind of abuse as
> this guy does, then go with a cheaper rear der. But I guess you don't
> know how difficult conditions are up at the Whistler mountain bike
> park. Minimum requirement for a newbie to ride up there is a full set
> of armour with a spine protector as being recommended!

And you, sir, have pointed out how the majority of rec.bicycles.tech is
woefully behind the times when it comes to new stuff in the MTB scene.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

 

[[email protected]]

NTM Islip Speedway

 

[Meccanico di Bici]

Wow, great price for Record!

 

[Meccanico di Bici]

Peter, as one who actually rides a mountain bike, I'll tell you that in
my qualified opinion, in real-world of road riding conditions, a SRAM
rear der. does in fact shift faster and more precisely than a Shimano
XT. Firmer springs, tighter pivots, the 1:1 ratio business all add up
to a better quality shift. Now, is it $150 dollars better? Doubt it.
I'm guesing the SRAM X-9 rear der. works as well and is comparable
price wise to XT. But just like your beloved Campag, you can get all
the function from a Centaur rear der. as you can from Record, but if
you want exotic materials, light weight, Jewelry-like finishing, you
can belly-up $300+ for Record. Nobody is forcing anydody to pay $200
for a rear der., but if someone wants to pay that, so what. Cheers.

 

[David]

In article <jFjmf.27309$ih5.15109@dukeread11>, Phil, Squid-in-Training
<[email protected]> wrote:

> > If you are not subjecting your rear der to the same kind of abuse as
> > this guy does, then go with a cheaper rear der. But I guess you don't
> > know how difficult conditions are up at the Whistler mountain bike
> > park. Minimum requirement for a newbie to ride up there is a full set
> > of armour with a spine protector as being recommended!
>
> And you, sir, have pointed out how the majority of rec.bicycles.tech is
> woefully behind the times when it comes to new stuff in the MTB scene.

Phil,

It's funny you can make a claim like this when in fact, "we are all"
one way or another benefiting from the fruitful of new technology
advancement that come "standard" now if it weren't for the new stuff
that were coming out of the MTB scene.

But having said that, is there a need for anyone in the RBT to, shall
we say, keep up with the jones??
If you are happy with your $15-30 rear der, so should be it. No one
here is forcing you to buy a $200 rear der unless you want to. In
fact, a $200 rear der would probably be an overkill. While you may not
see the need to own it, another cyclist may see a dire need to have one
for his or her specific riding purpose. And if that's how he or she
enjoys that form of cycling, so be it..

 

[Marian]

Luke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Jasper Janssen wrote:

> > > No markup. They simply don't ride these bikes. Not walmart bikes either.
> > > They ride single-speed bikes with a coaster brake. Without basic bottle
> > > generator lights, even. There's an rbm poster living in China who
> > > regularly reports on her encounters with local bike culture.
> >
> > I'm also a lurker here ...
>
> <snip>
>
> Hopefully, you'll leave the shadows and lurk less; your post was very
> much enjoyed!

I have to have something to contribute, and on most technical threads I
barely grasp the vocabulary ... though, I'm going to have to because
thingywhatsis in not an appropriate answer when the bike shop manager
asks me "what do you call this?"

-M

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>,
"Marian" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Luke wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Jasper Janssen wrote:
>
> > > > No markup. They simply don't ride these bikes. Not walmart bikes either.
> > > > They ride single-speed bikes with a coaster brake. Without basic bottle
> > > > generator lights, even. There's an rbm poster living in China who
> > > > regularly reports on her encounters with local bike culture.
> > >
> > > I'm also a lurker here ...
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Hopefully, you'll leave the shadows and lurk less; your post was very
> > much enjoyed!
>
> I have to have something to contribute, and on most technical threads I
> barely grasp the vocabulary ... though, I'm going to have to because
> thingywhatsis in not an appropriate answer when the bike shop manager
> asks me "what do you call this?"

Here you are.
<http://sheldonbrown.com/glossary.html>

--
Michael Press

 

[Dave]

Meccanico di Bici wrote:
> Peter, as one who actually rides a mountain bike, I'll tell you that in
> my qualified opinion, in real-world of road riding conditions, a SRAM
> rear der. does in fact shift faster and more precisely than a Shimano
> XT. Firmer springs, tighter pivots, the 1:1 ratio business all add up
> to a better quality shift. Now, is it $150 dollars better? Doubt it.
> I'm guesing the SRAM X-9 rear der. works as well and is comparable
> price wise to XT. But just like your beloved Campag, you can get all
> the function from a Centaur rear der. as you can from Record, but if
> you want exotic materials, light weight, Jewelry-like finishing, you
> can belly-up $300+ for Record. Nobody is forcing anydody to pay $200
> for a rear der., but if someone wants to pay that, so what. Cheers.

I second this opinion. Yes the X-0 part is overpriced but the X-9 rear
derailleurs are excellent values. I've always had Shimano, but my
latest mtb has X-9 twist shifters and rear der. Shifting is precise
and reliable, and needs to be adjusted less frequently than XT in my
experience. Looks great too.

 

[[email protected]]

like gp racing, the last few available yards are expensive
so in that light $150 more maybe reasonable.

 

[Peter Cole]

willarch wrote:

>
> I reckon next time you buy a bike part, think - is the engineering
> really worth that much, or is it just prettier? If it is twice as
> expensive is it really twice as good? Should I really pay 100% for only
> a 10% improvement in quality?

"Man is a luxury loving animal. Take away play, fancies, and luxuries,
and you will turn man into a dull, sluggish creature, barely energetic
enough to obtain a bare subsistence. A society becomes stagnant when its
people are too rational or too serious to be tempted by baubles."

Eric Hoffer (1902-1983)

 

[Meccanico di Bici]

> The answer is that you charge the highest, daftest, price you think
> some sucker is prepared to pay. Then drive your production costs down
> as far as you can. The gap in between is your profit. The customer is
> the enemy. You want their money and they are trying to stop you.
>
> First market it to the early adopters, those who "must" have it for
> whatever reason. Sell it through the exclusive specialist press first,
> to a narrow market of enthusiasts and fashionistas, and show-offs who
> must always go one better than everyone else, and have what no-one else
> has got. When that market is saturated, bring the price down and go
> wider for the ordinary punter, with "previously sold at ....." as your
> sales pitch. Raise desirability by advertising, and restrict
> availability at first - you can charge more for a "must have" in
> limited supply. As each level of the market is saturated, discount the
> price and go wider and lower, making loud claims as to the bargain you
> are offering.
>
> Small annual design changes will feed the upgrade market, particularly
> for those who always want the latest fashion, will keep the market
> rolling, and can be marketed at well above your minor tooling costs.
> Last years model can always be discounted (still within your profit
> margin), and sold to a wider audience as a bargain sale, to shift it
> and clear the way to restart the process with a new model.
>
> A range with minor differences in engineering quality can be sold at
> far wider differences in price.
>
> On average, the greater majority of the things we buy leave the factory
> at one third of the retail price."
> willarch

iPod marketing from Apple?!?

 

[Meccanico di Bici]

> The answer is that you charge the highest, daftest, price you think
> some sucker is prepared to pay. Then drive your production costs down
> as far as you can. The gap in between is your profit. The customer is
> the enemy. You want their money and they are trying to stop you.
>
> First market it to the early adopters, those who "must" have it for
> whatever reason. Sell it through the exclusive specialist press first,
> to a narrow market of enthusiasts and fashionistas, and show-offs who
> must always go one better than everyone else, and have what no-one else
> has got. When that market is saturated, bring the price down and go
> wider for the ordinary punter, with "previously sold at ....." as your
> sales pitch. Raise desirability by advertising, and restrict
> availability at first - you can charge more for a "must have" in
> limited supply. As each level of the market is saturated, discount the
> price and go wider and lower, making loud claims as to the bargain you
> are offering.
>
> Small annual design changes will feed the upgrade market, particularly
> for those who always want the latest fashion, will keep the market
> rolling, and can be marketed at well above your minor tooling costs.
> Last years model can always be discounted (still within your profit
> margin), and sold to a wider audience as a bargain sale, to shift it
> and clear the way to restart the process with a new model.
>
> A range with minor differences in engineering quality can be sold at
> far wider differences in price.
>
> On average, the greater majority of the things we buy leave the factory
> at one third of the retail price."
> willarch

iPod marketing from Apple?!?

 

[Jasper Janssen]

On 11 Dec 2005 00:51:21 -0800, "Marian" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Jasper Janssen wrote:

>> Huh. Coaster brakes are definitely cheaper than even the crappiest of
>> calipers plus levers plus cables, over here, at least, so that's weird to
>> me.
>
>> Low end bikes here in .nl are fairly universally specced with a gaspipe
>> steel frame, forged steel cranks without replaceable chainring (cotterless
>> or very occasionally sometimes even cottered on new ones, most of the ones
>> <1980 would be cottered), a full chaincase enclosing all of the chain, a
>> 'urinal-steel' front hub, rubber block pedals, Dutch Bend (a fair bit
>> tighter than North Road, but otherwise similar) bars with plastic grips, a
>> coaster brake, steel ((thinly) chromed or stainless) rims, 37/622 tyres,
>> steel (galvanised or stainless) spokes, a bottle generator on the left of
>> the front wheel with a chromed or plastic headlight and a painted or
>> plastic rear light, using the frame as ground return path so they don't
>> need two wires, full fenders, a rear rack, and all 4 main pairs of
>> bearings in cheap-ass cup/cone.
>
>My technical bike vocabulary is pretty lacking and currently better in
>Chinese since I didn't really get into bikes and biking until moving
>here. What is cotterless/cottered?

Cottered cranks have a bottom bracket spindle that is basically round on
the ends, with two cutouts on opposing sides. The cranks slide over them
and have a hole for a cotter pin to go in, with a locknut on the other
end, which holds the cranks in place. In the 70s, the cotterless cranks
started to come in. Generally (then, at least) the ends on the spindle
would be square with a taper (therefore they're called square-taper cranks
en bottom brackets), and the cranks would have a matching square hole and
are held in by a large bolt that screws into the end of the spindle.
Nowadays, there are variants that use different spindle ends than square,
on higher end bikes.

>Flying Pigeons and other work bike styles usually have a chain guard
>enclosing most if not all of the chain (sometimes parts of the chain
>guard have rusted away or been removed for inexplicable reasons).

Ever tried dealing with a bike whose rear tyre keeps flatting, and a
chaingaurd which is either rusted shut and/or rusted brittle? That's
generally why.

>Below rubber-block-pedal grade bikes come the bikes with a pedal that
>looks remarkably like a clipless that gave birth to a thalidomide baby.

That's.. an evocative phrase, though I'm not sure it's evoking the right
sort of images.

>So far as I know most rims and spokes are steel. Doing vocabulary
>lessons with the mechanics a few weeks back they taught me "aluminum
>rims," "steel rims," and "iron rims" and although "iron rims" _seemed_
>to be a joke ...

Steel's cheaper anyway, but cast-iron has probably been used for bike
wheels at some point, everything else has.

>standard high-end gets you into a huge variety of frame styles, shapes,
>geometry, different kinds of shock absorbers, sprung seats, and on and
>on and on ... my personal favorite are the ones with a built-in lock in
>the front fork.

Saddles without springs are the work of the devil. See also: suspension
seatposts, which are a solution to that particular unnecessary problem.

>> Spoon brakes? Wow. That is *so* 1890s. I'm pretty sure those are illegal
>> here.
>
> Mayhap. But they probably work better than feet.

Maybe. I wouldn't count on't, though. Feet plus a nice
throwing-bike-sideways maneuver can stop you fairly quickly if it really
needs to.

>to my door). The next day I get his flat repaired and take the bike to
>meet him, in the process discovering that one brake handle isn't
>connected to anything and the other doesn't produce a noticeable
>slowing effect. I still cringe when I remember the astonishment on his
>face when I asked him why he didn't repair them ... after all, he had
>good strong shoe soles.

It's especially bad when you're not expecting it, of course. But if people
think like that, why don't most bikes just get sold without brakes?

>> I guess that China nowadays has a huge range of incomes, to support that
>> diverse a selection.
>
>Oh yeah. Oh very yeah. My hourly rate of pay when I deign to work
>(I'm currently a Chinese language student and have to be cajoled into
>agreeing to teach English) is more than some people I've met (in the
>same city) make in a month. Now, those people are particularly poor,
>but the three hours I put in every week gets me the same in one week as
>the monthly salary of a waitress, a security guard, or The Wrench at my
>local bike shop.

Wow. So that's a factor of 12 or so for a mere ESL teacher (no offense
intended, I assure you). Around here, with a functioning minimum wage,
hourly flippin' burgers rate is something like (the equivalent of) 70 yuan
or so, and getting a factor of 12 above that puts you well into
IT-consultancy ranges.

Do they need any Dutch as a second language teachers over there? Given the
supply differences from english/dutch, they might be in even more demand!


Jasper

 

[Marian]

Jasper Janssen wrote:
> On 11 Dec 2005 00:51:21 -0800, "Marian" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >Jasper Janssen wrote:

> >My technical bike vocabulary is pretty lacking and currently better in
> >Chinese since I didn't really get into bikes and biking until moving
> >here. What is cotterless/cottered?
>
> Cottered cranks have a bottom bracket spindle that is basically round on
> the ends, with two cutouts on opposing sides. The cranks slide over them
> and have a hole for a cotter pin to go in, with a locknut on the other
> end, which holds the cranks in place. In the 70s, the cotterless cranks
> started to come in. Generally (then, at least) the ends on the spindle
> would be square with a taper (therefore they're called square-taper cranks
> en bottom brackets), and the cranks would have a matching square hole and
> are held in by a large bolt that screws into the end of the spindle.
> Nowadays, there are variants that use different spindle ends than square,
> on higher end bikes.

I think I can visualize this. I've seen the shop switching out front
gears before.

> >Flying Pigeons and other work bike styles usually have a chain guard
> >enclosing most if not all of the chain (sometimes parts of the chain
> >guard have rusted away or been removed for inexplicable reasons).
>
> Ever tried dealing with a bike whose rear tyre keeps flatting, and a
> chaingaurd which is either rusted shut and/or rusted brittle? That's
> generally why.

Nope. Never had a bike with a fully enclosed chain guard.

> >Below rubber-block-pedal grade bikes come the bikes with a pedal that
> >looks remarkably like a clipless that gave birth to a thalidomide baby.
>
> That's.. an evocative phrase, though I'm not sure it's evoking the right
> sort of images.

I'll try to get pictures up as soon as possible. It really looks like
there _ought_ to be some way to attach a cleat to the pedal but
something went horribly horribly wrong regarding size and proportions.

> >So far as I know most rims and spokes are steel. Doing vocabulary
> >lessons with the mechanics a few weeks back they taught me "aluminum
> >rims," "steel rims," and "iron rims" and although "iron rims" _seemed_
> >to be a joke ...
>
> Steel's cheaper anyway, but cast-iron has probably been used for bike
> wheels at some point, everything else has.

And cast iron might already be lying around.

> >standard high-end gets you into a huge variety of frame styles, shapes,
> >geometry, different kinds of shock absorbers, sprung seats, and on and
> >on and on ... my personal favorite are the ones with a built-in lock in
> >the front fork.
>
> Saddles without springs are the work of the devil. See also: suspension
> seatposts, which are a solution to that particular unnecessary problem.

Suspension seatposts are the ones that bobble and wiggle and wave?
Aren't attached at the bottom?

Being somewhat larger than your average Asian and having been about 20
kilo larger when I was riding uprights (a whole _two_ years ago) I've
completely avoided them.

> >> Spoon brakes? Wow. That is *so* 1890s. I'm pretty sure those are illegal
> >> here.
> >
> > Mayhap. But they probably work better than feet.
>
> Maybe. I wouldn't count on't, though. Feet plus a nice
> throwing-bike-sideways maneuver can stop you fairly quickly if it really
> needs to.

I've identified three major varieties since my original post. All on
passenger trikes.

Type one uses the handlebar levers and rods that are normally attached
to caliper brakes on low end bikes. But, it pushes something into the
wheel instead.

Type two has a thick piece of rubber (looks like recycled truck tire)
attached to a "something". It is pushed into the wheel using the foot.

Type three is the same as type two only there is a hand lever on the
frame which does the pushing into the wheel motion.

> >to my door). The next day I get his flat repaired and take the bike to
> >meet him, in the process discovering that one brake handle isn't
> >connected to anything and the other doesn't produce a noticeable
> >slowing effect. I still cringe when I remember the astonishment on his
> >face when I asked him why he didn't repair them ... after all, he had
> >good strong shoe soles.
>
> It's especially bad when you're not expecting it, of course. But if people
> think like that, why don't most bikes just get sold without brakes?

Beats me. Possibly because not everyone thinks like that.

> >> I guess that China nowadays has a huge range of incomes, to support that
> >> diverse a selection.
> >
> >Oh yeah. Oh very yeah. My hourly rate of pay when I deign to work
> >(I'm currently a Chinese language student and have to be cajoled into
> >agreeing to teach English) is more than some people I've met (in the
> >same city) make in a month. Now, those people are particularly poor,
> >but the three hours I put in every week gets me the same in one week as
> >the monthly salary of a waitress, a security guard, or The Wrench at my
> >local bike shop.
>
> Wow. So that's a factor of 12 or so for a mere ESL teacher (no offense
> intended, I assure you).

Factor of more than 50.
My per week net at 3 hours (200rmb/hour) is the same as their per month
net.
And I'm not an ESL teacher any more. I'm a language student who is
somewhat reluctantly teaching on the side. (But the preschool kids are
so _cute_.)

> Around here, with a functioning minimum wage,
> hourly flippin' burgers rate is something like (the equivalent of) 70 yuan
> or so, and getting a factor of 12 above that puts you well into
> IT-consultancy ranges.

The income disparity around here is a lot more dispare. (Is dispare a
real word?)

The local who regularly rides a carbon frame does something with
electronics and assuming a 40 hour work week is making about 125rmb per
hour...every hour, which is only slightly less than I'm getting in a
field where it isn't really possible to get 40 hours a week.

> Do they need any Dutch as a second language teachers over there? Given the
> supply differences from english/dutch, they might be in even more demand!

Some of the English teachers I'm friends with include a German, a
French Canadian, a Russian, and a Brazilian. (None of whom make
anything resembling my hourly but I get what I get because I actively
turn down jobs.) As long as you aren't Asian.

-M

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
> > If you are not subjecting your rear der to the same kind of abuse as
> > this guy does, then go with a cheaper rear der. But I guess you don't
> > know how difficult conditions are up at the Whistler mountain bike
> > park. Minimum requirement for a newbie to ride up there is a full set
> > of armour with a spine protector as being recommended!
>
> And you, sir, have pointed out how the majority of rec.bicycles.tech is
> woefully behind the times when it comes to new stuff in the MTB scene.
> --
> Phil, Squid-in-Training

And how is that a bad thing???