Why does Dura Ace cost way more than Ultegra

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Joel, Dec 21, 2005.

  1. Joel

    Joel Guest

    Duta Ace ST-7800 10 speed shift levers $429
    Ultegra ST-6600 10 speed shift levers $269

    What accounts for the $160 price difference besides a negligible weight
    savings?
     
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  2. Bill Sornson

    Bill Sornson Guest

    Joel wrote:
    > Duta Ace ST-7800 10 speed shift levers $429
    > Ultegra ST-6600 10 speed shift levers $269
    >
    > What accounts for the $160 price difference besides a negligible
    > weight savings?


    People will pay it.

    HTH, BS
     
  3. bfd

    bfd Guest

    "Bill Sornson" <[email protected]am> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Joel wrote:
    > > Duta Ace ST-7800 10 speed shift levers $429
    > > Ultegra ST-6600 10 speed shift levers $269
    > >
    > > What accounts for the $160 price difference besides a negligible
    > > weight savings?

    >
    > People will pay it.
    >

    Hey, don't forget that DA gets a 3 year warranty, Ultegra and the rest of
    the shimano lineup only 2 years! Might make a difference re STI shifters.
     
  4. Tim McNamara

    Tim McNamara Guest

    "Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> writes:

    > Joel wrote:
    >> Duta Ace ST-7800 10 speed shift levers $429
    >> Ultegra ST-6600 10 speed shift levers $269
    >>
    >> What accounts for the $160 price difference besides a negligible
    >> weight savings?

    >
    > People will pay it.
    >
    > HTH, BS


    Dang! Way to sum it up, Bill.
     
  5. Joel <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Duta Ace ST-7800 10 speed shift levers $429
    > Ultegra ST-6600 10 speed shift levers $269
    >
    > What accounts for the $160 price difference besides a negligible weight
    > savings?


    There is a certain group of people who only accept "the best" for their
    bikes. What is considered the "the best" primarily depends on the
    price, secondarily on weight and aesthetics but not really on any
    functional differences. This is why it's a good idea businesswise to
    have least one product line that is outrageously expensive compared
    manufacturing and R&D costs, because it will still sell well to this
    special group.

    -as
     
  6. Antti Salonen wrote:
    > Joel <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > Duta Ace ST-7800 10 speed shift levers $429
    > > Ultegra ST-6600 10 speed shift levers $269
    > >
    > > What accounts for the $160 price difference besides a negligible weight
    > > savings?

    >
    > There is a certain group of people who only accept "the best" for their
    > bikes. What is considered the "the best" primarily depends on the
    > price, secondarily on weight and aesthetics but not really on any
    > functional differences. This is why it's a good idea businesswise to
    > have least one product line that is outrageously expensive compared
    > manufacturing and R&D costs, because it will still sell well to this
    > special group.


    This principle seems to hold across all equipment based sports and
    hobbies. An unfortunate side effect is that kids are often even more
    subject to it. Kids want to fit in, and if they have to use "crap"
    equipment they feel they look dorky, and thus some borderline cases
    lose interest. I think it hurts recruiting.

    Nothing wrong with getting expensive stuff if you want to, of course.

    Joseph
     
  7. Derk

    Derk Guest

    bfd wrote:
    >> > What accounts for the $160 price difference besides a negligible
    >> > weight savings?

    >> People will pay it.

    9s Ultegra STI's would rattle and D-A wouldn't. I don't know the 10S, but I
    can't stand hearing that sound, so I bought D-A groups in stead of Ultegra.
    D-A bearing are also better sealed.

    Greets, Derk
     
  8. Lou Holtman

    Lou Holtman Guest

    "Derk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > bfd wrote:
    > >> > What accounts for the $160 price difference besides a negligible
    > >> > weight savings?
    > >> People will pay it.

    > 9s Ultegra STI's would rattle and D-A wouldn't. I don't know the 10S, but

    I
    > can't stand hearing that sound, so I bought D-A groups in stead of

    Ultegra.
    > D-A bearing are also better sealed.



    Veloce Ergo's don't rattle ;-)

    Lou
     
  9. Stan Cox

    Stan Cox Guest

    Lou Holtman wrote:
    > "Derk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    >>bfd wrote:
    >>
    >>>>>What accounts for the $160 price difference besides a negligible
    >>>>>weight savings?
    >>>>
    >>>>People will pay it.

    >>
    >>9s Ultegra STI's would rattle and D-A wouldn't. I don't know the 10S, but

    >
    > I
    >
    >>can't stand hearing that sound, so I bought D-A groups in stead of

    >
    > Ultegra.
    >
    >>D-A bearing are also better sealed.

    >
    >
    >
    > Veloce Ergo's don't rattle ;-)
    >
    > Lou
    >
    >

    Nor do my 7 speed down tube levers but thats not the point. 10 speed
    ultegra doesnt rattle. the difference is, do you want to be seen
    riding the top of the range or as a skinflint.

    Stan (Skinflint) Cox
     
  10. Derk

    Derk Guest

    Stan Cox wrote:
    >the difference is, do you want to be seen
    > riding the top of the range or as a skinflint.

    I'm sure there isn't a good reason for recreational riders to buy D-A, but
    why shouldn't someone buy it? It looks nicer, weighs a bit less and is
    absolutely a bit more durable. If you keep your bike for 5 years or more,
    what is the extra cost of a D-A group then over these 5 years? I'm sure
    most people waste a lot more money on cars, stereo equipment etc.

    Greetings, Derk
     
  11. Well, my wife got me a 2000 9-speed DA group as a gift on a new bike.
    The first time I cleaned and repacked the front hub, I knew that DA was
    often significantly different in materials and R&D. The aluminum axle
    with steel ends for cups was really impressive when I'm used to the
    traditional Ultegra implementation. Maybe all Shimno is done this way
    now? The last example of Ultegra I had worked on was from ~1995.

    The bottom bracket was a work of art too.

    Nevertheless, my next wheelset will have Ultegra hubs. It's not worth
    the couple-oz savings.
     
  12. Derk

    Derk Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > Nevertheless, my next wheelset will have Ultegra hubs. It's not worth
    > the couple-oz savings.

    It's not only that. The D-A hubs turn far smoother than the Ultegra hubs.
    You really feel the difference when you turn the wheels by hand. I don't
    think it will make you go any faster, but it's always nice to have
    something that's perfect.

    I compare it to owning Zeiss, Swarovski or Leica optics: you can also use
    other cheaper optics and you'll see as much, but through these high end
    optics you'll see just a bit brighter, more contrasty images.

    Greetings, Derk
     
  13. Tim McNamara

    Tim McNamara Guest

    Stan Cox <[email protected]> writes:

    > the difference is, do you want to be seen riding the top of the
    > range or as a skinflint.


    Which relates exactly back to Bill S.'s answer.
     
  14. Tom

    Tom Guest

    I've started building all of my new bikes with barend shifters and you
    know what? They actually shift better, cost $65 on Ebay new and I can
    tell by the feel which gear I'm in.

    Now that I've used them on my touring bike, my cyclocross bike and two
    road bikes I believe I'd have no qualms about using them for racing
    either. While I suppose that you could come up with some sort of
    scenario where you could lose a race because it tool .1 seconds longer
    to shift your barends, to tell you the truth, in all of the races I was
    in I seldom shifted at any critical time. In the crits I only used one
    or two gears and maybe one more in the sprint. But we were almost
    always on the rivet and you didn't HAVE any more gears. In road racing
    I never saw anything that might even VAGUELY be called a critical time
    for shifting.

    It's true that you might want to be a little smarter about your
    shifting if it takes marginally longer to move your hand to the barend
    rather than twisting it where it is, but I'm not impressed.

    Originally I bought STI and then Ergo because I wanted the best stuff.
    Then I bought it because it seemed to be the only stuff. Now the prices
    are so far in outer space that it no longer makes any sense on a
    recreational bike and very little on a racing bike.

    With 8 road bikes, a touring bike, a cyclocross bike, a fully suspended
    mountain bike and a track bike in my collection I've been able to try
    just about everything. Think I'll stick with barends from now on.
     
  15. Derk

    Derk Guest

    Tom wrote:

    > I've started building all of my new bikes with barend shifters and you
    > know what? They actually shift better, cost $65 on Ebay new and I can
    > tell by the feel which gear I'm in.

    I use downtube shifters on my winterbike and I'm completely happy with those
    too. Only, when it's very windy STI's are better, because you can keep both
    hands on the steerer.


    > With 8 road bikes, a touring bike, a cyclocross bike, a fully suspended
    > mountain bike and a track bike in my collection

    You beat me! I have 5 racing bikes and 1 cyclocrossbike, plus a normal city
    bike and my wife complains about *me*!


    Greetings, Derk
     
  16. Tom wrote:
    > I've started building all of my new bikes with barend shifters and you
    > know what? They actually shift better, cost $65 on Ebay new and I can
    > tell by the feel which gear I'm in.


    gee, so can I and my shifters cost $10...plus I haven't needed to
    adjust my rear der for 16 years(friction shifters).
    >
    > Now that I've used them on my touring bike, my cyclocross bike and two
    > road bikes I believe I'd have no qualms about using them for racing
    > either. While I suppose that you could come up with some sort of
    > scenario where you could lose a race because it tool .1 seconds longer
    > to shift your barends, to tell you the truth, in all of the races I was
    > in I seldom shifted at any critical time. In the crits I only used one
    > or two gears and maybe one more in the sprint. But we were almost
    > always on the rivet and you didn't HAVE any more gears. In road racing
    > I never saw anything that might even VAGUELY be called a critical time
    > for shifting.
    >
    > It's true that you might want to be a little smarter about your
    > shifting if it takes marginally longer to move your hand to the barend
    > rather than twisting it where it is, but I'm not impressed.
    >
    > Originally I bought STI and then Ergo because I wanted the best stuff.
    > Then I bought it because it seemed to be the only stuff. Now the prices
    > are so far in outer space that it no longer makes any sense on a
    > recreational bike and very little on a racing bike.
    >
    > With 8 road bikes, a touring bike, a cyclocross bike, a fully suspended
    > mountain bike and a track bike in my collection I've been able to try
    > just about everything. Think I'll stick with barends from now on.
     
  17. Joel wrote:
    > Duta Ace ST-7800 10 speed shift levers $429
    > Ultegra ST-6600 10 speed shift levers $269
    >
    > What accounts for the $160 price difference besides a negligible weight
    > savings?


    I donno why a DA group costs more than ultegra..only titanium is the
    last 4 cogs.

    I donno why Chorus is so expensive. I know carbon costs more but w/o
    titanium, whu so much more than Centaur?

    I donno why bicycles vary by group changes and not frame changes when
    the heart and most important part of the bicycle is the frame/fork.

    I think this ever spiraling price trend is taking people OUT of the
    bicycle market, not into it. The US needs safe places to ride(bike
    lanes), reliable bicycles and less rednecks that think somebody on a
    bicycle is some sort of communist.
     
  18. RonSonic

    RonSonic Guest

    On 22 Dec 2005 07:54:30 -0800, "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >
    >Tom wrote:
    >> I've started building all of my new bikes with barend shifters and you
    >> know what? They actually shift better, cost $65 on Ebay new and I can
    >> tell by the feel which gear I'm in.

    >
    >gee, so can I and my shifters cost $10...plus I haven't needed to
    >adjust my rear der for 16 years(friction shifters).


    Yeah, but you have to reach past your knees to shift. Besides, he could go
    friction, if he wanted to.

    Ron



    >>
    >> Now that I've used them on my touring bike, my cyclocross bike and two
    >> road bikes I believe I'd have no qualms about using them for racing
    >> either. While I suppose that you could come up with some sort of
    >> scenario where you could lose a race because it tool .1 seconds longer
    >> to shift your barends, to tell you the truth, in all of the races I was
    >> in I seldom shifted at any critical time. In the crits I only used one
    >> or two gears and maybe one more in the sprint. But we were almost
    >> always on the rivet and you didn't HAVE any more gears. In road racing
    >> I never saw anything that might even VAGUELY be called a critical time
    >> for shifting.
    >>
    >> It's true that you might want to be a little smarter about your
    >> shifting if it takes marginally longer to move your hand to the barend
    >> rather than twisting it where it is, but I'm not impressed.
    >>
    >> Originally I bought STI and then Ergo because I wanted the best stuff.
    >> Then I bought it because it seemed to be the only stuff. Now the prices
    >> are so far in outer space that it no longer makes any sense on a
    >> recreational bike and very little on a racing bike.
    >>
    >> With 8 road bikes, a touring bike, a cyclocross bike, a fully suspended
    >> mountain bike and a track bike in my collection I've been able to try
    >> just about everything. Think I'll stick with barends from now on.
     
  19. Derk

    Derk Guest

    Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:


    > I think this ever spiraling price trend is taking people OUT of the
    > bicycle market, not into it. The US needs safe places to ride(bike
    > lanes), reliable bicycles and less rednecks that think somebody on a
    > bicycle is some sort of communist.

    You can always ask for political asylum in Holland: we have bike lanes AND
    we can ride a bike without being suspected of anything. We need good bike
    mechanics too, btw: so please move to the eastern part of Holland!

    Greetings, Derk
     
  20. RonSonic wrote:
    > On 22 Dec 2005 07:54:30 -0800, "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >Tom wrote:
    > >> I've started building all of my new bikes with barend shifters and you
    > >> know what? They actually shift better, cost $65 on Ebay new and I can
    > >> tell by the feel which gear I'm in.

    > >
    > >gee, so can I and my shifters cost $10...plus I haven't needed to
    > >adjust my rear der for 16 years(friction shifters).

    >
    > Yeah, but you have to reach past your knees to shift. Besides, he could go
    > friction, if he wanted to.


    Not just reaching past one's knee, shifting while standing is difficult
    with down-tube shifters too. I got pretty good at dropping down a cog
    or two with my knee for a sprint, but shifting up a cog while climbing
    was always a no-go. But I'll take STI now, thanks.

    Joseph
     
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