Why was Landis' test/epitst ratio "fixed" in Stg 18 urine?

[jhodder]

Quick question....

The yellow jersey is tested after every TDF stage right? And the current doping theory is that a desperate Floyd either took a testosterone shot or stuck a patch on his b***s before Stage 17. If this is the case, then why was the testosterone/epitestosterone ratio suddenly within parameters the next day? (I assume that is was also fine two days earlier on L'Alpe)

From the limited research I have done, these shots or patches take much longer to build up and then to clear the system, and the body does not adjust back to normal testosterone-producing state for far greater than a day.

So, please tell me how this is possible.

Thx.

 

[bobke]

Quick question....

The yellow jersey is tested after every TDF stage right? And the current doping theory is that a desperate Floyd either took a testosterone shot or stuck a patch on his b***s before Stage 17. If this is the case, then why was the testosterone/epitestosterone ratio suddenly within parameters the next day? (I assume that is was also fine two days earlier on L'Alpe)

From the limited research I have done, these shots or patches take much longer to build up and then to clear the system, and the body does not adjust back to normal testosterone-producing state for far greater than a day.

So, please tell me how this is possible.

Thx.

I'm sure Floyd wants to know also.

 

[Tonto]

Quick question....

The yellow jersey is tested after every TDF stage right? And the current doping theory is that a desperate Floyd either took a testosterone shot or stuck a patch on his b***s before Stage 17. If this is the case, then why was the testosterone/epitestosterone ratio suddenly within parameters the next day? (I assume that is was also fine two days earlier on L'Alpe)

From the limited research I have done, these shots or patches take much longer to build up and then to clear the system, and the body does not adjust back to normal testosterone-producing state for far greater than a day.

So, please tell me how this is possible.

Thx.

No one actually knows that he used a patch on his balls or took a quick shot the night before. It's pure supposition.

 

[karlotta]

Quick question....

The yellow jersey is tested after every TDF stage right? And the current doping theory is that a desperate Floyd either took a testosterone shot or stuck a patch on his b***s before Stage 17. If this is the case, then why was the testosterone/epitestosterone ratio suddenly within parameters the next day? (I assume that is was also fine two days earlier on L'Alpe)

From the limited research I have done, these shots or patches take much longer to build up and then to clear the system, and the body does not adjust back to normal testosterone-producing state for far greater than a day.

So, please tell me how this is possible.

Thx.

Here's how...

1) Floyd wasn't the yellow jersey until after stage 19.... not 18... if you recall.

2) It's possible to take testosterone in small doses for recovery and not test positive.

 

[Lonnie Utah]

2) It's possible to take testosterone in small doses for recovery and not test positive.

But is it effective at such low doses?

L

 

[karlotta]

But is it effective at such low doses?

L

I've read several reports from medical folks who say it can be effective in recovery... and undetectable after many hours of sport. Gerard Dine (in todays Le Monde online... yes it's in French), and the German doctor who mentioned using the patch. Others say it isn't effective, and that it's a placebo effect. But there is a clear history of its use in this capacity as a performance enhancing drug, as the San Diego article pointed out, whether effective or not.

 

[jhodder]

Here's how...

1) Floyd wasn't the yellow jersey until after stage 19.... not 18... if you recall.

2) It's possible to take testosterone in small doses for recovery and not test positive.

He was actually wearling the yellow jersey when he "bonked" on stage 16 (meaning he was tested the night before - 48hours before the positive test).

There were three back-to-back mountain stages:

Jul 18 St 15) Landis gets yellow without "penache" and tests all clear
Jul 19 St 16) Landis bonks and "decides to dope in his hotel room that night"
Jul 20 St 17) Landis takes minutes back in miracle ride and tests positive

Then the jaunt into Paris...

Jul 21 St 18) Flat day, Landis clear
Jul 22 St 19) ITT, Landis takes yellow and is clear
Jul 23 St 20) Paris, Landis clear

 

[DMF]

I've read several reports from medical folks who say it can be effective in recovery... and undetectable after many hours of sport. Gerard Dine (in todays Le Monde online... yes it's in French), and the German doctor who mentioned using the patch. Others say it isn't effective, and that it's a placebo effect. But there is a clear history of its use in this capacity as a performance enhancing drug, as the San Diego article pointed out, whether effective or not.

It is effective .. over the long term, as in weeks. I have yet to find credible testimony that T (or any substance that triggers the test) has any discernible effect as a one-day dose. Quite the contrary.

 

[allgoo19]

Why don't you show us those several links and translate it for us, karlotta? If you can read it you should have no problem translating to English.

What I have read on the net is quite consistent with what DMF said above. Are we talking about something different?

I've read several reports from medical folks who say it can be effective in recovery... and undetectable after many hours of sport. Gerard Dine (in todays Le Monde online... yes it's in French), and the German doctor who mentioned using the patch. Others say it isn't effective, and that it's a placebo effect. But there is a clear history of its use in this capacity as a performance enhancing drug, as the San Diego article pointed out, whether effective or not.

 

[limerickman]

He was actually wearling the yellow jersey when he "bonked" on stage 16 (meaning he was tested the night before - 48hours before the positive test).

There were three back-to-back mountain stages:

Jul 18 St 15) Landis gets yellow without "penache" and tests all clear
Jul 19 St 16) Landis bonks and "decides to dope in his hotel room that night"
Jul 20 St 17) Landis takes minutes back in miracle ride and tests positive

Then the jaunt into Paris...

Jul 21 St 18) Flat day, Landis clear
Jul 22 St 19) ITT, Landis takes yellow and is clear
Jul 23 St 20) Paris, Landis clear

Stage placings 1, 2, 3 get tested automatically.

Unless the Yellow Jersey finished 1,2 or 3 on a stage he is not automatically tested.

Yellow jersey on stage 16 - would not have been tested as he (Landis) died on that stage and finished 23rd on stage 16.

 

[bobke]

Stage placings 1, 2, 3 get tested automatically.

Unless the Yellow Jersey finished 1,2 or 3 on a stage he is not automatically tested.

Yellow jersey on stage 16 - would not have been tested as he (Landis) died on that stage and finished 23rd on stage 16.

PLEASE POST THE SOURCE OF INFO:
MY INFO SEZ YELLOW JERSEY TESTED EVERY DAY.
ALSO WHAT FLOYD SAID ON LARRY KING.
ALONG WITH STAGE WINNER AND SEVERAL RANDOM RIDERS...

 

[allgoo19]

Stage placings 1, 2, 3 get tested automatically.

Unless the Yellow Jersey finished 1,2 or 3 on a stage he is not automatically tested.

Yellow jersey on stage 16 - would not have been tested as he (Landis) died on that stage and finished 23rd on stage 16.

Your guess is no better than the rest of us, unless you have been one of the official. Do you have a link to the official record to back up your claim?

 

[karlotta]

Why don't you show us those several links and translate it for us, karlotta? If you can read it you should have no problem translating to English.

What I have read on the net is quite consistent with what DMF said above. Are we talking about something different?

OK... Here is the piece from Le Monde. I'm giving both the French and my translation... note: MY translation not babelfish or google.

Floyd Landis, vainqueur du Tour de France, a été contrôlé positif à la testostérone lors d'un test effectué le jour de sa victoire décisive à Morzine, lors de la 17e étape. N'est-ce pas étonnant qu'un coureur se fasse prendre pour un produit si facile à détecter ?

Gérard Dine : Cela peut paraître complètement maladroit à première vue d'utiliser de la testostérone, mais en fait c'est "bien essayé". Nous produisons naturellement de la testostérone, et c'est un anti-fatigue très efficace que l'on retrouve naturellement dans les urines. On déclare qu'un sportif se dope à la testostérone lorsqu'un taux anormalement élevé est décelé. Il s'agit d'un contrôle quantitatif. Pour le dopé, l'objectif est de consommer ces produits sans jamais dépasser la limite suspecte.


Quelle réaction peut-on attendre du coureur américain et de son équipe ?

Gérard Dine : Ils vont probablement tenter de mettre en difficulté le contrôle quantitatif. Il sera intéressant de voir leur argumentaire. Celui-ci pourrait faire valoir que le taux relevé est plus ou moins proche de la limite tolérée, qu'il est possible d'avoir naturellement tel ou tel taux de testostérone… Une bataille d'experts qui va prendre du temps.


Prendre de la testostérone au lendemain d'un gros coup de fatigue, est-ce logique ?

Gérard Dine : Les corticoïdes et la testostérone sont les produits historiques du dopage, très utilisés dans les années 60-70. Ce sont en effet des produits que l'on peut prendre de manière ponctuelle. Les corticoïdes ont un effet rapide, quelques heures suffisent pour ressentir les conséquences d'une prise. La testostérone, c'est plus long, cela prend plusieurs jours, mais cela reste très efficace.


Le cyclisme ne semble pas pouvoir se dépêtrer des affaires de dopage…

Gérard Dine : Je ne suis pas surpris. Les médias parlent beaucoup du cyclisme, c'est l'effet Tour de France, mais d'autres sports sont fortement gangrenés comme l'athlétisme, le football ou le tennis. Pensez-vous que la Juventus de Turin, qui achetait des matchs, n'avait pas un programme pour ces joueurs ? Dans l'affaire de la banque de sang espagnol qui a fait trembler le Tour, il n'y avait pas que des cyclistes mis en cause… Qui sont les autres ?

Gérard Dine is President of the Biotechnolgy Institute of Troyes

Floyd Landis, winner of the Tour de France tested positive for testosterone usage after a test performed the day of his decisive victory at Morzine, on the 17th Stage. Is it not stunning that a racer would allow himself to be caught using a substance so easy to detect?

Gérard Dine: That could appear totally awkward at first glance, using testosterone, but in acutality, it was “a good try”. We naturally produce testosterone, and it’s a very effecticve anti-fatigue remedy that is found naturally in urine. We accuse an athlete of testosterone doping when an abnormally high level is detected. This is a matter of quantitative analysis. For the doper, the goal is to use these substances without ever passing the limit.

What reaction can we expect from the American racer and his team?

Gérard Dine: They will probably try to raise doubts about the quantitative analysis. It will be interesting to see their argument. He could try to argue that the level measured is more or less close to the acceptable limit, that it is possible to have a natural level of such testosterone. A battle of experts which will take time.

Taking testosterone the day after a big bonk, is it logical?

Gérard Dine: Corticoides and testosterone are historical doping substances, used much during the 60’s and 70’s. They are substances that one could take in a timely manner. Corticoids have a rapid effect, several hours suffice in order to feel the effects of a dose. Testosterone takes longer, several days, but it is very effective.

Le cyclisme ne semble pas pouvoir se dépêtrer des affaires de dopage…
Cycling doesn’t seem to be able to extricate itself from doping scandals

Gérard Dine : I’m not surprised. Media speak a lot about cycling. It’s a result of the Tour de France, but other sports are extremely corrupted, such as track and field, soccer, tennis. Do you think that Juventus of Turin, which has been buying games, doesn’t have a program for it’s players? In Operacion Puerto, which shook the Tour, it wasn’t only cyclists who were involved. Who are the others?

 

[karlotta]

And the article from Cyclingnews...

Jaksche's doctor: drug use common

German doctor Kurt Moosburger, who has looked after Jörg Jaksche (among others) for the past two years, has told dpa that he believes that performance enhancing drugs are "indispensable" for high level cycling

In a frank interview, Moosburger pointed to the average speeds of modern professional races, especially hard tours. "The average in last year's Tour was 41 kilometres per hour - that is incredible. You can do a hard Alpine stage without doping. But after that, the muscles are exhausted. You need - depending on your training conditions - up to three days in order to regenerate."

To help recover, testosterone and human growth hormone can be used. "Both are made by the body and are therefore natural substances," he said. "They help to build muscle as well as in muscle recovery."

Dr Moosburger explained how it was done. "You put a standard testosterone patch that is used for male hormone replacement therapy on your scrotum and leave it there for about six hours. The small dose is not sufficient to produce a positive urine result in the doping test, but the body actually recovers faster."

Dr Moosburger went onto explain that, "The supply of oxygen to the blood decides what the body is capable of in terms of fat- and carbohydrate metabolism. This capacity is mostly genetically determined.The muscles of athletes who are able to reach the top level of sport can carry about 60 millilitres per kilo per minute in an untrained condition. That of an average person is only about 40 millilitres per kilo. In order to be able to keep up with the world's best, it must be 85 to 90 millilitres.

EPO helps oxygen carrying capacity, and has long been the performance enhancing drug of choice in endurance sports. "It enables you to hold the haematocrit of the blood in the upper level of what's allowed for the whole season. Before the EPO test, for example, athletes injected 4000 units three times per week. Now they inject a small dose almost daily."

Finally, in the opinion of Dr Moosburger, blood doping via transfusion would give an athlete a five percent boost for two to three weeks. "And therefore can last for a grand tour."http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul07news3

 

[SaintAndrew]

they don't realease results from the days that showed up ok, but a couple things that could happen are:

* he timed it better and his test levels were much lower the next day

* he was injecting eiptestosterone daily to match his testosterone doping, and biffed it just that once

not to mention alot of other scenarios where he is or is not guilty.

 

[allgoo19]

And the article from Cyclingnews...

Here's a counter offer to karlotta.

three Phd/MD's today who are experts in the field of human performance, and they made three comments that were important.

1 - from Tim Church: The volume of testing itself on such an elite segment of the population can and will skew the quantity of false-positives. So if the chances for a false positive are 1 in 100 for the gen. pop., the chances for this specific segment would arguably be much higher, like 15 to 20%. However, no one has actually studied these riders, their hormones, the down-to-the-minute blood variations that can occur over the course of 3 weeks to the extent that is necessary to come up with adequate values and determinations. Summary: the test validity can be questioned, the method of test application can be questioned, and there are more times than the testers would like to admit where they'll get a result and won't have a clue about how that result occurred. When questioned, they get defensive....

2) Dr. Conrad Earnest - It's physically impossible, even with doping or masking methods, to read "Low, low, low, low, low, HIGH, low, low, low" for T/E ratios over a course of days and be guilty of a patch, a cream, or an injection... We can assume Floyd was tested daily, by the UCI as well as Phonak's own doctors (can't trust the NGB - see TH). Floyd would have had to have shown at least two or three values above the threshold for two or three days for more questions to arise. He's only allegedly tested positive for one sample on one day...

3) Dr. Ben Levine, MD - **** Pound is NOT the person to be leading the charge against doping in this or any sport. Granted, it's a thankless job, but going on NPR to announce your disappointment in a rider without all the facts (ed. think Hamilton), is another example of several ethical lapses for which he is guilty. Testosterone application on THAT stage would have been pointless, so the rider and his consultants need to point out the trend and highlight any spike or dip-anomalies.

Here's the link to the rest of article.
http://boulderreport.bicycling.com/2006/07/tour_de_specula.html

 

[karlotta]

Here's a counter offer to karlotta.

three Phd/MD's today who are experts in the field of human performance, and they made three comments that were important.

2) Dr. Conrad Earnest - It's physically impossible, even with doping or masking methods, to read "Low, low, low, low, low, HIGH, low, low, low" for T/E ratios over a course of days and be guilty of a patch, a cream, or an injection... We can assume Floyd was tested daily, by the UCI as well as Phonak's own doctors (can't trust the NGB - see TH). Floyd would have had to have shown at least two or three values above the threshold for two or three days for more questions to arise. He's only allegedly tested positive for one sample on one day...
\Here's the link to the rest of article.
http://boulderreport.bicycling.com/2006/07/tour_de_specula.html

Wrong. He could easily have been taking test to boost and injecting with epitest to mask, and simply not gotten the epitest right on the day he was caught.

 

[patch70]

If he is guilty, he most likely will have been using a testosterone substance all along as well as some epitestosterone (just to keep his ratio correct). He probably then stuffed up his dose of epitestosterone before stage 17.

By the way, current testosterone patches don't need to be put on the scrotum. This is for older style patches from last milennium!

 

[allgoo19]

Wrong. He could easily have been taking test to boost and injecting with epitest to mask, and simply not gotten the epitest right on the day he was caught.

If it's so easy, why other riders are not doing the same thing?
If Landis decided to do it, why he did it on most obvious day which everybody would be most suspicious, and failed to hide it? That would be stupid, wouldn't it?
Big majority of experts opinion I have seen agreed with the Dr. Earnest I posted above, but I have rarely seen experts opinion saying T/E ratio can be changed day to day. Since neither of us can invite experts from both sides and have debate in this forum, we can't say one way is right and other is wrong.
What credential you have that makes you say, decisively, one Dr. is wrong, karlotta?

 

[SaintAndrew]

If it's so easy, why other riders are not doing the same thing?
If Landis decided to do it, why he did it on most obvious day which everybody would be most suspicious, and failed to hide it? That would be stupid, wouldn't it?
Big majority of experts opinion I have seen agreed with the Dr. Earnest I posted above, but I have rarely seen experts opinion saying T/E ratio can be changed day to day. Since neither of us can invite experts from both sides and have debate in this forum, we can't say one way is right and other is wrong.
What credential you have that makes you say, decisively, one Dr. is wrong, karlotta?

this one time when i was younger i had to watch my parents house and i threw a big party and messed up the boat a little and the hot tub got all dirty and a bunch of ****. i planned on fixing everything right before they got home, but things were hectic and i didn't end up fixing or cleaning jack and they were all ****** when they got back.

stupid? yes. but it happened.