Why we need bike paths.



On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 02:03:45 -0700 (PDT)
Mastuna <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > People cycle because they want to.

>
> Many people in Britain want to cycle, or would consider cycling, but
> they don't because they think it's too dangerous.
>

So educate them.
 
"Mastuna" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>> People cycle because they want to.

>
> Many people in Britain want to cycle, or would consider cycling, but
> they don't because they think it's too dangerous.
>
> I am talking about "normal people" here. Families with children,
> middle aged women, etc. The bulk of the population. Not a minority of
> young, male cycling enthusiasts (who will cycle no matter what).
>
>

Excuse me, but I've been cycling in London since 1974, aged 24 and regard
myself as a normal utility / commuter cyclist.
I cannot see how encouraging cyclists off the roads ( aka perfectly good
cycle paths ) onto cycle paths is going to help cyclist safety. Unless your
cycle paths are brought up to the same standards regarding give way
priority, road surface, width etc as existing roads, in which case why not
just spend the money on educating everyone on how to get along together.
A couple of years ago I spent a week commuting in Munchengladbach, Germany,
using their compulsory cycle facilities, I found it all very dispiriting.
The joy of getting back to Waterloo and getting stuck in again as an adult
road user immense.
 
On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 11:01:33 +0100, Colin McKenzie
<[email protected]> said in
<[email protected]>:

>> And of course I mean *good* bike paths; the kind they have in Holland.
>> Wide, continuous, straight, easy-to-use bike networks, designed for
>> safety and high throughput, and that give priority to cyclists at
>> junctions.


>And which, IIRC, are compulsory for cyclists, like those in Germany.


Indeed, and for the same reason (the rules were introduced during
the occupation).

>On-road cycling came to be perceived as dangerous because of driver
>behaviour. It will be, and will be seen to be safe if the driving
>culture is improved. France has shown what can be done, with radical
>casualty reduction following a decision to enforce existing laws better.


Yes. But the rural French are less obsessed with speed than the
typical Brit anyway. I have never experienced a French driver
showing impatience when reduced to cycling speeds for a couple of
minutes. Not to say it doesn't happen, but the speed imperative
does not seem to have infected them to the same extent.

It's also not clear to me where these supposed cycle lanes will go.
Looking back at the heated arguments in the 17th Century when London
tried to widen its strategic thoroughfares, I don't think this is a
new problem. Unfortunately, the private car is a grossly
space-inefficient and highly dangerous mode of urban transport. Any
solution which fails to recognise that will probably not be
effective.

To quote Douglas Adams: "Many solutions were suggested for this
problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements
of small, green pieces of paper, which is odd, because on the whole,
it wasn't the small, green pieces of paper which were unhappy."

We are the small green pieces of paper in this equation.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
 
On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 10:05:57 +0100, Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:

> On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 07:32:14 +0100, Tom Crispin
> <[email protected]> said in
> <[email protected]>:
>
>>That's Mastuna's point. Where *good* cycle paths are provided more
>>people cycle.

>
> Really? Got a good cite for that?
>
> Guy


I suspect that it is self-referential - he would define "good" cycle paths
as those which, when introduced, can be shown to cause more people to
cycle.

Entirely theoretical though, and unlikely in Britain.
 
"Tom Crispin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 01:47:26 +0100, "Clive George"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"Mastuna" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:c5331202-81b6-40a7-b9fe-78190eccd264@l17g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>
>>> The more people cycle, the better cycling conditions will become, also
>>> for you and me. So I am not being purely altruistic.
>>>
>>> As for being completely banned from the road, this is unlikely, as
>>> there will always be racing bikers who need to use them.

>>
>>I'm not a racing biker, but I'm pretty sure I'd find any cycling
>>facilities
>>provided under your scheme to be slow and irritating.

>
> Would that route be slow and irritating to someone travelling to the
> loacl library - or school children on their way to school?


What's that got to do with what I wrote?

>>> Maybe it
>>> could happen on some A-roads, but I presume few of us ever feel the
>>> desire to cycle on those.

>>
>>I cycle on A-roads daily.
>>
>>One of them is even a trunk road. Remove that option, and quite a lot of
>>routes round here become rather hard.

>
> Mastuna's proposal is not to ban cyclists from more roads, just to
> give new and returning cyclists a motor traffic free option.


And he accepts that his proposal may result in banning cyclists from more
roads. Unintended consequences - bad things.

clive
 
"Tom Crispin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 01:47:26 +0100, "Clive George"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"Mastuna" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:c5331202-81b6-40a7-b9fe-78190eccd264@l17g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>
>>> The more people cycle, the better cycling conditions will become, also
>>> for you and me. So I am not being purely altruistic.
>>>
>>> As for being completely banned from the road, this is unlikely, as
>>> there will always be racing bikers who need to use them.

>>
>>I'm not a racing biker, but I'm pretty sure I'd find any cycling
>>facilities
>>provided under your scheme to be slow and irritating.

>
> Would that route be slow and irritating to someone travelling to the
> loacl library - or school children on their way to school?
>
>>> Maybe it
>>> could happen on some A-roads, but I presume few of us ever feel the
>>> desire to cycle on those.

>>
>>I cycle on A-roads daily.
>>
>>One of them is even a trunk road. Remove that option, and quite a lot of
>>routes round here become rather hard.

>
> Mastuna's proposal is not to ban cyclists from more roads, just to
> give new and returning cyclists a motor traffic free option.


Would it not be better to offer new and returning cyclists some training to
give them the necessary skills and confidence to be able to interact with
the motor traffic rather than fear it?
 
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:59:13 -0700 (PDT) someone who may be Mastuna
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>As for being completely banned from the road, this is unlikely, as
>there will always be racing bikers who need to use them. Maybe it
>could happen on some A-roads, but I presume few of us ever feel the
>desire to cycle on those.


Some people have stopped cycling to work since the "cycle friendly"
City of Edinburgh Council banned cycling on the A90. It was run by
the Labour Party bunch at the time, but the new Liberal Democrat /
Scottish National Party bunch have done nothing to remove the ban.
Indeed they have done nothing for cycling since the election a year
ago, despite lots of hot air when they wanted people's votes.

Being banned from the roads is a real possibility, especially where
there is an "alternative" cycle "facility". The "alternative" to the
A90 is NCN 1, which one might think would be a showcase but in
reality is only for the brave/foolhardy as a year round route.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
 
On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 07:35:10 +0100 someone who may be Tom Crispin
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>Mastuna's proposal is not to ban cyclists from more roads,


I'm sure it isn't, but the anti-cycling establishment is always on
the lookout for something they can use. To take another example, I'm
sure few people deciding to wear a cycle helmet are voting for
compulsory helmets, but that is exactly the way the anti-cycling
establishment views their choice.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
 
Mastuna wrote:
> I personally find puncture resistant tyres useful. I used to cycle
> through a high street pub area every day and I got a puncture every 2
> weeks on average. I haven't had any problems since I replaced the
> tyres.


Highly puncture resistant tyres are relatively heavy and slow. You also
need the tyres to be large as well to make the ride tolerable on typical
cycle paths. You may be asking for good quality surfaces, but the chances
of us ever getting that are slim, I think.

~PB
 
In article <cfbdd7ca-3ff4-4a7a-b55d-36e41cc8ab20@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Mastuna <[email protected]> wrote:
>This country needs bike paths for one reason only: Because they will
>get people to cycle. All else is secondary.


Even leaving aside the other problems with your arguments, which other
posters have rebutted, this part is simply not true.

See for example:
http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/redway.html
particularly the section `Impact on cycle ownership and use', and also
this very relevant letter to Sustrans
http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/sustrans1.html

People _say_ that they will cycle more if there are more bike tracks
and lanes, but actually they turn out not to.

--
Ian Jackson personal email: <[email protected]>
These opinions are my own. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/
PGP2 key 1024R/0x23f5addb, fingerprint 5906F687 BD03ACAD 0D8E602E FCF37657
 
Mastuna wrote:
>> Also we simply do not have the room in this country to create lots of
>> extra paths.

>
> It's a common myth that Britain has "no room".


It's where the room is that matters, and what is between the spaces. Yes
I'm sure *some* really good cylcle paths could be built, but don't expect
them to be a complete alternative to cycling on the roads for most people.

Typically, cyclists would still have to use the roads for some of their
journey to fill in the gaps between paths (if they're lucky enough to have
any paths going where they want at all).

So people would still be put off cycling - unless we make the roads seem
safer. If that is done, there would be less need for paths.

~PB
 
On 07 Jun 2008 12:21:26 +0100 (BST), Ian Jackson
<[email protected]> said in
<szE*[email protected]>:

>People _say_ that they will cycle more if there are more bike tracks
>and lanes, but actually they turn out not to.


Yes. All that's needed for people to cycle more is facilities, no
hills, no rain, no sweat, shorter distances, and an actual
willingness to do it. Only one of these is the real reason...

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
 
On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 02:16:13 -0700 (PDT) someone who may be Mastuna
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>> We need to stop people and dogs walking on them and smashing glass
>> bottles on them, which is what causes 95% of my punctures.

>
>If they are well designed people won't walk on them just like they
>don't walk on roads.


People don't walk much on roads, at least where there is a pavement,
because they are intimidated off them by the size and speed of motor
vehicles, despite having the right to walk on roads.

Bikes don't have this effect, something which can easily be
demonstrated on just about any segregated cycle path.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
 
"Adam Lea" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> "Tom Crispin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 01:47:26 +0100, "Clive George"
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>"Mastuna" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>news:c5331202-81b6-40a7-b9fe-78190eccd264@l17g2000pri.googlegroups.com....
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The more people cycle, the better cycling conditions will become, also
> >>> for you and me. So I am not being purely altruistic.
> >>>
> >>> As for being completely banned from the road, this is unlikely, as
> >>> there will always be racing bikers who need to use them.
> >>
> >>I'm not a racing biker, but I'm pretty sure I'd find any cycling
> >>facilities
> >>provided under your scheme to be slow and irritating.

> >
> > Would that route be slow and irritating to someone travelling to the
> > loacl library - or school children on their way to school?
> >
> >>> Maybe it
> >>> could happen on some A-roads, but I presume few of us ever feel the
> >>> desire to cycle on those.
> >>
> >>I cycle on A-roads daily.
> >>
> >>One of them is even a trunk road. Remove that option, and quite a lot of
> >>routes round here become rather hard.

> >
> > Mastuna's proposal is not to ban cyclists from more roads, just to
> > give new and returning cyclists a motor traffic free option.

>
> Would it not be better to offer new and returning cyclists some training to
> give them the necessary skills and confidence to be able to interact with
> the motor traffic rather than fear it?
>
>


It may also be a 'Good Idea' to make sure that (possibly some) drivers of motorised vehicles were to receive training in how to operate safely in relation to other road users (yes I'm thinking cyclists ... and pedestrians in particular).
 
On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:09:19 +0200, "Pete Biggs"
<[email protected]> said in
<[email protected]>:

>You may be asking for good quality surfaces, but the chances
>of us ever getting that are slim, I think.


Especially considering the ****ardly approach of the average council
to maintenance of the roads. Maintenance tends to be something that
simply does not happen to cycle facilities; fit and forget seems to
be the rule. And if we asked for them to be maintained, well, then
we'd be inviting assertions that we should be paying for their
upkeep (ignoring, as usual, the fact that road maintenance is not
hypothecated).

Give me a decent road any time.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
 
On Jun 7, 1:21 pm, Ian Jackson <[email protected]>
wrote:
> In article <cfbdd7ca-3ff4-4a7a-b55d-36e41cc8a...@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Mastuna <[email protected]> wrote:
> >This country needs bike paths for one reason only: Because they will
> >get people to cycle. All else is secondary.

>
> Even leaving aside the other problems with your arguments, which other
> posters have rebutted, this part is simply not true.
>
> See for example:
> http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/redway.html
> particularly the section `Impact on cycle ownership and use', and also
> this very relevant letter to Sustrans
> http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/sustrans1.html
>
> People _say_ that they will cycle more if there are more bike tracks
> and lanes, but actually they turn out not to.
>
> --
> Ian Jackson personal email: <[email protected]>
> These opinions are my own. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/
> PGP2 key 1024R/0x23f5addb, fingerprint 5906F687 BD03ACAD 0D8E602E FCF37657


Milton Keynes ... yeah right. **** city planning right from the start.
The problem is that those redways were designed purely for
recreational purposes and not with commuters in mind.
 
On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 06:24:12 -0700 (PDT), Mastuna
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Milton Keynes ... yeah right. **** city planning right from the start.
>The problem is that those redways were designed purely for
>recreational purposes and not with commuters in mind.


This may be true, but I certainly prefer riding on them over 70mph
dual carriageways (or worse 60mph single carriageways).

They'd be improved no end if they would simply put some road markings
on them in order to get people in the mindset that they are
effectively motor-vehicle-free country lanes.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.
 
"David Hansen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:59:13 -0700 (PDT) someone who may be Mastuna
> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>
>>As for being completely banned from the road, this is unlikely, as
>>there will always be racing bikers who need to use them. Maybe it
>>could happen on some A-roads, but I presume few of us ever feel the
>>desire to cycle on those.

>
> Some people have stopped cycling to work since the "cycle friendly"
> City of Edinburgh Council banned cycling on the A90. It was run by
> the Labour Party bunch at the time, but the new Liberal Democrat /
> Scottish National Party bunch have done nothing to remove the ban.
> Indeed they have done nothing for cycling since the election a year
> ago, despite lots of hot air when they wanted people's votes.
>
> Being banned from the roads is a real possibility, especially where
> there is an "alternative" cycle "facility". The "alternative" to the
> A90 is NCN 1, which one might think would be a showcase but in
> reality is only for the brave/foolhardy as a year round route.
>


Are there any alternative country lane routes that could be used?
 
"Tom Crispin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 01:21:51 +0100, Martin <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>GoogleUser Mastuna wrote:
>>> I have heard all the arguments against bike paths.
>>>
>>> "They are more dangerous". "They are only there to take cyclists off
>>> the road". "They slow cyclists down". etc.
>>>
>>> The truth of the matter is that all those criticisms is irrelevant.

>>
>>No they are not.
>>
>>A cycle lane/path is about twice as dangerous (for distance) as cycling
>>on the road.

>
> !?
>
> Is cycling in Holland or Denmark, which both have excellent motor
> traffic free provision for cyclists, more dangerous than cycling in
> the UK?


I guess not, but is that because of, or in spite of the cycle facilities? Is
it not because Dutch and Danish drivers are much more accustomed to dealing
with cyclists, and there isn't the transport heirachy assumption that there
is in the UK?

>
>>It would take a huge amount of extra cyclists to negate that.

>
> That's a good aim.
>
>>A cycle path doubles the time it takes me to ride down the road.
>>When I am going to work I don't want that delay.

>
> Use the road, then.
>
>>When I am cycling for fitness I want to be able to pick up speed, and
>>get a good workout, not keep slowing when I would not need to in the road.

>
> Use the road, then.


The point being made by others is that the provision of facilities may
result in cyclists being forced to use them as opposed to having the choice
of using them, so that using the road would not be an option.

>
>>> This country needs bike paths for one reason only: Because they will
>>> get people to cycle. All else is secondary.

>>
>>People cycle because they want to.

>
> But they can be encouraged to want to.
>
>>> You see, it doesn't really matter if using a bike path is more or less
>>> safe than cycling on the road.

>>
>>Yes it does.
>>
>>> What matters is that bike paths are
>>> *perceived* to be safe, and if they get the masses to cycle, the
>>> overall societal benefit will far outweigh any marginal safety (or
>>> other) disadvantages they may have.

>>
>>I don't like being lied to by governments. And claiming cycle lanes are
>>safer is like claiming cycle helmets prevent 85% of head injuries.
>>
>>> And of course I mean *good* bike paths; the kind they have in Holland.
>>> Wide, continuous, straight, easy-to-use bike networks, designed for
>>> safety and high throughput, and that give priority to cyclists at
>>> junctions. Not the sorry excuses for bike paths British town planners
>>> spew out.
>>>
>>> Your opinion?
 

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