WIGGLE don't haggle (about refunds)

[Paul Boyd]

Tim Dunne said the following on 04/03/2008 22:45:

> That's true, but I still favour CR. I'm put off by the idea that as a
> irregular customer I'm paying for Wiggle's more frequent buyers; surely
> they'd do btter to stuff the discount thing and lower prices for everyone?

It doesn't work like that at all. As with anything in life, if you buy
more you get a better price. That doesn't mean that someone else is
subsidising it.

I don't suppose you have a Tesco loyalty card or any other supermarket
discount card then? If you had one you would be expecting other people
to subsidise your discount, and that would never do.

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

 

[Mark]

On Wed, 5 Mar 2008 10:15:26 -0000, "Pete Biggs"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Mark wrote:
>
>> Only problem with Wiggle is that they are almost impossible to
>> contact. They have no published telephone number that I can find and
>> they have never replied to any emails.
>
>They have replied to emails of mine. Their automated system is so good that
>there is a rarely a need to email or phone anyway.

What automated system?

M.

 

[Pete Biggs]

Mark wrote:
>>> Only problem with Wiggle is that they are almost impossible to
>>> contact. They have no published telephone number that I can find
>>> and they have never replied to any emails.
>>
>> They have replied to emails of mine. Their automated system is so
>> good that there is a rarely a need to email or phone anyway.
>
> What automated system?

Ordering and returns.

They're not good for technical advice, but you can usually find the info you
need elsewhere.

~PB

 

[Ian Smith]

On Wed, 5 Mar 2008, Pete Biggs wrote:
> Ian Smith wrote:
> > On Tue, 4 Mar 2008, Pete Biggs <> wrote:
> >
> > (of wiggles prices)
> >>
> >> Not for everything, but for a lot of accessories and some
> >> components their prices cannot be beaten. They also have a 5 to
> >> 10% discount scheme for regular customers.
> >>
> >> Chain Reaction are also excellent, and cheaper for some items, but
> >> they do not stock everything that Wiggle does.
> >
> > Which is an interesting assertion
>
> To clarify, my assertion is this:
>
> When CR has what you want, they are often the cheapest.
>
> When CR does not have what you want, and Wiggle does,

Except your assertion was actually also that Wiggle have thousands of
things that Chain Reaction do not stock.

In the (quite by chance, random selection) case of the last order I
examined, Chain Reaction had three times the choice of tyres and twice
the choice of rim tape within my pre-decided criteria, and claimed
better stock levels of all of it.

So your assertion (Wiggle has thousands of things Chain Reaction
don't) must also be tempered by the observation that Chain Reaction
also have lots of things Wiggle don't. In which case, the value of
your observation reduces somewhat - it cannot be used as a
differentiator if you can say the same thing about both (A has things
B doesn't, B has things A doesn't).

Chain Reaction also provided better details of what was being sold.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

 

[Pete Biggs]

Ian Smith wrote:

>> To clarify, my assertion is this:
>>
>> When CR has what you want, they are often the cheapest.
>>
>> When CR does not have what you want, and Wiggle does,
>
> Except your assertion was actually also that Wiggle have thousands of
> things that Chain Reaction do not stock.

My assertion was "there are hundreds, if not thousands, of items at Wiggle
that CR do not stock." The "hundreds" is a safe bet, the "thousands" is my
suspicion. I've not actually counted!

> In the (quite by chance, random selection) case of the last order I
> examined, Chain Reaction had three times the choice of tyres and twice
> the choice of rim tape within my pre-decided criteria, and claimed
> better stock levels of all of it.

That's *your* criteria. Not very often mine. A huge number of times, I
have found what I wanted at Wiggle but not CR - but, nevermind, that is not
relevant to my main point (see below).

> So your assertion (Wiggle has thousands of things Chain Reaction
> don't) must also be tempered by the observation that Chain Reaction
> also have lots of things Wiggle don't.

Of course they do.

> In which case, the value of
> your observation reduces somewhat - it cannot be used as a
> differentiator if you can say the same thing about both (A has things
> B doesn't, B has things A doesn't).

Incredibly, you are not understanding the value of my terribly simple
observation.

I'm not using it as a [expleted deleted] differentiator. I'm using it as a
defence for Wiggle - in response to the implied idea that everyone can use
Chain Reaction instead of Wiggle.

The point is that it is worth using Wiggle for plenty of things, and CR do
not beat Wiggle for those particular things simply because they have not got
them.

It's no criticism of Chain Reaction at all. I have nothing against CR. I
am not interested in any debate about who is the best between Wiggle and CR.
They are both "good guys", in my opnion. Is that clear now at last?

~PB

 

[Ian Smith]

On Wed, 5 Mar 2008, Pete Biggs <> wrote:
> Ian Smith wrote:
>
> >> To clarify, my assertion is this:
> >>
> >> When CR has what you want, they are often the cheapest.
> >>
> >> When CR does not have what you want, and Wiggle does,
> >
> > Except your assertion was actually also that Wiggle have thousands of
> > things that Chain Reaction do not stock.
>
> My assertion was "there are hundreds, if not thousands, of items at Wiggle
> that CR do not stock." The "hundreds" is a safe bet, the "thousands" is my
> suspicion. I've not actually counted!
>
> > In the (quite by chance, random selection) case of the last order I
> > examined, Chain Reaction had three times the choice of tyres and twice
> > the choice of rim tape within my pre-decided criteria, and claimed
> > better stock levels of all of it.
>
> That's *your* criteria. Not very often mine.

Eh? It's not often a criterion that you want a component from a
particular manufacturer and of a particular fitting? You frequently
say to yourself "I want a tyre, but it doesn't matter what
manufacturer, model, or size", for example? I really don't understand
what you are saying (or maybe, don't believe you mean what you appear
to have said).

My criterion was that I wanted Velox rim tape. CR had more than twice
as much choice of Velox rim tape than Wiggle, and describe the tape
that they were selling more precisely.

My criterion was that I wanted Schwalbe Marathon Plus tyres to fit my
rims. CR had three different ones that match that description, Wiggle
supposedly stock just one of teh three, but it was out of stock.

> I'm not using it as a [expleted deleted] differentiator. I'm using
> it as a defence for Wiggle - in response to the implied idea that
> everyone can use Chain Reaction instead of Wiggle.

I have certainly not implied that. I merely commented that it was
interesting that your apparent impression is that Wiggle have so much
wider range of stock when my last order Wiggle had none of the things
I wanted in stock (at least, it could not be determined that they had
it - they don't say how wide the Velox rim tape they have is), while
CR had everything I wanted in stock, and a wider choice of each thing.

> The point is that it is worth using Wiggle for plenty of things,
> and CR do not beat Wiggle for those particular things simply
> because they have not got them.

Well, when it's also the case that Wiggle do not beat CR for the
things that CR have and Wiggle do not have, that's a fairly pointless
point to make, IMO.

Newsflash: it's not worth trying to buy things that a shop doesn't
have from that shop. If another shop has the things you want to buy,
it is better to buy from the other shop.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

 

[Pete Biggs]

Ian Smith wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Mar 2008, Pete Biggs <> wrote:
>> Ian Smith wrote:
>>
>>>> To clarify, my assertion is this:
>>>>
>>>> When CR has what you want, they are often the cheapest.
>>>>
>>>> When CR does not have what you want, and Wiggle does,
>>>
>>> Except your assertion was actually also that Wiggle have thousands
>>> of things that Chain Reaction do not stock.
>>
>> My assertion was "there are hundreds, if not thousands, of items at
>> Wiggle that CR do not stock." The "hundreds" is a safe bet, the
>> "thousands" is my suspicion. I've not actually counted!
>>
>>> In the (quite by chance, random selection) case of the last order I
>>> examined, Chain Reaction had three times the choice of tyres and
>>> twice the choice of rim tape within my pre-decided criteria, and
>>> claimed better stock levels of all of it.
>>
>> That's *your* criteria. Not very often mine.
>
> Eh? It's not often a criterion that you want a component from a
> particular manufacturer and of a particular fitting?

Hey eh, you are misunderstanding me yet again. I mean I happen to want
different types or models of tyres etc than you. Of course I often want a
particular component - and often CR do not have it. Obviously that will be
more often the case with some cyclists than others - depending on the types
of bikes and stuff they like.

>> I'm not using it as a [expleted deleted] differentiator. I'm using
>> it as a defence for Wiggle - in response to the implied idea that
>> everyone can use Chain Reaction instead of Wiggle.
>
> I have certainly not implied that.

You may not have done, but it seemed like others were.

>> The point is that it is worth using Wiggle for plenty of things,
>> and CR do not beat Wiggle for those particular things simply
>> because they have not got them.
>
> Well, when it's also the case that Wiggle do not beat CR for the
> things that CR have and Wiggle do not have, that's a fairly pointless
> point to make, IMO.

I thought it was worth making this small point in case anyone was put of
looking at Wiggle if they had the impression that you could get everything
that Wiggle had at CR. That's all!

I think I've said everything I want to on the subject for now. If you still
don't understand me, then I'm afraid I'm too thick to explain it any better.

~PB

 

[Tim Dunne]

Pete Biggs wrote:

> I am defensive over any good supplier.

Your sheer vehemence is alarming. This is discussion I've walked in to, and
not abuse?

> You are *attacking* Wiggle - for no good reason that I can see. They
> are free to charge what they want and you are free to shop where you
> want. I also get defensive when it seems to be implied that I am an
> idiot for doing what I do. I use Wiggle for good service AND to save
> money.

I'm not attacking anybody and you need to get that persecution complex in
check. The OP made a comment about Wiggle being good on price, and in my
experience, they aren't as good as many people think. As I'm a helpful chap,
I posted a response, and now find that I'm apparently subjecting you to
abuse - I take exception to this. I'm doing no such thing and I'm entitled
to an opinion in a public forum without your sanction. If you can't take a
different opinion, get off usenet now, it's not your cup of tea.

> I never use Wiggle in preference to CR when I can get what I want
> from CR cheaper, yet I spend more at Wiggle per year than I do at CR.
> You would do exactly the same if you happened to like more of the
> same products as I do.

Yeah, whatever. If you'd read my posts you'd already know that's exactly
what I do.

> Infrequent buyers (with no discount) can still find many good deals at
> Wiggle - that match or beat anyone else's when the free post option
> is taken into account.

*sigh* Here we go again. I use CR because their prices and level of service
have been best for me. On occasions, I've used Wiggle, Evans, Mike Dyason,
Climbinglegs and various LBS's. Chain Reaction's postage is free, whereas
Wiggle automatically do the £3 priority thing which you have to cancel at
the checkout. That irritates because, as reported here, you seem to get the
same service regardless, which seems a little disingenious.

Just as a comparison, lets look at the following...

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/SearchResults.aspx?Search=ultegra+6600&x=0&y=0
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/ProductSearchAdvanced.aspx?Wd=ultegra 6600&cat=cycle

CR seem to be considerably cheaper on most stuff in that range, as they are
on most Shimano stuff. I don't even use Ultegra, it was plucked out of the
air. That's not to say that Wiggle aren't cheaper on some stuff, but to
promote the idea that they're good on price universally isn't true and I
advocate shopping around. Wiggles' absence of phone contact is also a cause
for concern.

> Personally I find them most useful for small
> accessories and widgets, as well as the ocasional larger component.
> I could list specific examples but I've spent enough time on this
> message already.

I haven't got a gun to your head.

> You don't have to buy the overpriced stuff ever. Your reward for
> buying stuff that matches or beats other prices is eventually a 5 or
> 10% discount. You get 5% if you have spent £100 in the last year.
> That's quite a modest total to get a helpful discount.

But I have to spend a ton to get what I get elsewhere... what's the point?
When they're not cheaper, there's no incentive when equivalent suppliers are
cheaper.

I'm only advocating shopping around... that can't possibly be offensive, can
it?

Tim
--
Sent from Birmingham, UK... all about me at www.nervouscyclist.org
'Now some people say that you shouldn't tempt fate, and for them I
cannot disagree - but I never learned nothing by playing it safe - I
say fate should not tempt me.' - Mary Chapin Carpenter

 

[Tim Dunne]

Trevor A Panther wrote:


> You voiced my opinions of Tim Dunne posts almost exactly so I
> cancelled the long post I was making.

Crikey! Does he take sugar?

> He does seem to be carrying a huge chip about his person!

Not at all, I just don't want to pay more than I have to, and I don't
suggest others do so, either.

Just out of interest, are you aware of just how pompous the opening
paragraph of you post makes you appear? I'm sure that's not your usual
style, and frankly, I think it's somewhat uncalled for; as a long-time
lurker and occasional poster in these parts I'd expect more open-minded
debate.

8<...

> But I have never been let down by Wiggle , never had my credit card
> copied by a hidden Wiggle thief

Neither have I, should I have been? I've never suggested such and take
exception to any insinuation that implies otherwise.

> When I buy from Wiggle I am saying to them that I am happy with their
> price and with their service -- and I will always have done a troll
> around the online shops to price compare

Great, we agree then. What was your point, again?

Tim
--
Sent from Birmingham, UK... all about me at www.nervouscyclist.org
'Now some people say that you shouldn't tempt fate, and for them I
cannot disagree - but I never learned nothing by playing it safe - I
say fate should not tempt me.' - Mary Chapin Carpenter

 

[Pete Biggs]

Tim Dunne wrote:

> I'm not attacking anybody and you need to get that persecution
> complex in check. The OP made a comment about Wiggle being good on
> price, and in my experience, they aren't as good as many people
> think.

See, you are assuming Wiggle's customers ("many people") are idiots - as if
they don't know how the prices compare. I didn't think you were attacking
me indiidually, but you are attacking Wiggle's customers as a group. Don't
dismiss it as persecution complex. You have actually been on the attack.

> As I'm a helpful chap, I posted a response, and now find that
> I'm apparently subjecting you to abuse - I take exception to this.
> I'm doing no such thing and I'm entitled to an opinion in a public
> forum without your sanction.

I'm not stopping you posting whatever you want. You however are telling me
to get off usenet because you don't like my responses!

> If you can't take a different opinion,
> get off usenet now, it's not your cup of tea.

The differing opinions have been my cup of tea for some years, but there's
only so many times I can take being told that black is white and white is
black. Instead of getting off (just yet), I thought I'd post what I really
think - in plain English (as plain as I can manage, anyway).

>> Infrequent buyers (with no discount) can still find many good deals
>> at Wiggle - that match or beat anyone else's when the free post
>> option is taken into account.
>
> *sigh* Here we go again. I use CR because their prices and level of
> service have been best for me. On occasions, I've used Wiggle, Evans,
> Mike Dyason, Climbinglegs and various LBS's. Chain Reaction's postage
> is free, whereas Wiggle automatically do the £3 priority thing which
> you have to cancel at the checkout.

One click and it is free post. It's pedantic to call it anything other than
free post.

> Just as a comparison, lets look at the following...
>
> http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/SearchResults.aspx?Search=ultegra+6600&x=0&y=0
> http://www.wiggle.co.uk/ProductSearchAdvanced.aspx?Wd=ultegra 6600&cat=cycle

I don't need to look at those because I already know what Wiggle aren't good
for. I've done a massive amount of research into bike products on the net
over the last few years.

> That's not to say that Wiggle aren't cheaper
> on some stuff, but to promote the idea that they're good on price
> universally isn't true

No one said universally.

>> You don't have to buy the overpriced stuff ever. Your reward for
>> buying stuff that matches or beats other prices is eventually a 5 or
>> 10% discount. You get 5% if you have spent £100 in the last year.
>> That's quite a modest total to get a helpful discount.
>
> But I have to spend a ton to get what I get elsewhere

As I said above, you don't need a discount to get good prices from Wiggle
for lots of things.

> ... what's the
> point? When they're not cheaper, there's no incentive when equivalent
> suppliers are cheaper.

When their price is the same as X's, the incentive is the reliability and
speed of service. That is true for CR as well - their service is equally
good, IMO.

> I'm only advocating shopping around... that can't possibly be
> offensive, can it?

That is not all you have been doing.

~PB

 

[Tim Dunne]

Pete Biggs wrote:
> You have actually been on the
> attack.

Not at all... you just think I have.

> You however are telling me
> to get off usenet because you don't like my responses!

I've done nothing of the sort. I merely suggested that if you couldn't
handle a mild difference of opinion without resorting to the kind of bluster
that you have, that Usenet may not be comfortable for you. Since you went on
to continue opining about your perceived indignance little has ocurred to
change that view.

Since you're clearly unable to continue this debate without misrepresenting
me, I feel there's little point in continuing. I've provided ample proof of
my original contention - that Wiggle aren't actually very good on price -
and you have failed to challenge it adequately.

Tim

--
Sent from Birmingham, UK... all about me at www.nervouscyclist.org
'Now some people say that you shouldn't tempt fate, and for them I
cannot disagree - but I never learned nothing by playing it safe - I
say fate should not tempt me.' - Mary Chapin Carpenter

 

[Pete Biggs]

Tim Dunne wrote:
> Pete Biggs wrote:
>> You have actually been on the
>> attack.
>
> Not at all... you just think I have.
>
>> You however are telling me
>> to get off usenet because you don't like my responses!
>
> I've done nothing of the sort. I merely suggested that if you couldn't
> handle a mild difference of opinion without resorting to the kind of
> bluster that you have, that Usenet may not be comfortable for you.
> Since you went on to continue opining about your perceived indignance
> little has ocurred to change that view.

Don't tell me how comfortable I am.

> Since you're clearly unable to continue this debate without
> misrepresenting me, I feel there's little point in continuing. I've
> provided ample proof of my original contention - that Wiggle aren't
> actually very good on price

********. You just pointed out certain brands and kinds of products they're
not good on. That's besides the point. I already know they're not good on
Shimano - or Campag, for that matter. There's a hell of a lot more to
cycling equipment than drive train components.

> - and you have failed to challenge it
> adequately.

I could pick out a few examples but you would not regard that as adequate.
It is not reasonable to expect me to list a large number of products with
prices from various suppliers to show how thet compare.

Meanwhile, regular customers already know they are good on price for the
things they order. They are not mugs. You are attacking them by implying
that they are mugs.

~PB

 

[Tim Hall]

On Wed, 5 Mar 2008 23:36:49 -0000, "Pete Biggs"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Tim Dunne wrote:
>> Pete Biggs wrote:

<snip>

Give it a rest guys. It's a shop, and another shop.


And that's it.


--

Tim

I understand very little of what's being discussed
but for some reason it's fascinating.

(Jon Thompson, urs)

 

[Pete Biggs]

Look at this post of yours again, Tim. You got quite blustered yourself,
and sarcastic, for no apparent reason after I made a couple of very brief
inoffensive statements.

If you wanted a more reasonable discussion then you shouldn't have posted in
this tone:

Tim Dunne wrote:
> Pete Biggs wrote:
>
>> There are hundreds, if not thousands, of items at Wiggle that CR do
>> not stock. *You* may not be interested in them, but obviously a
>> large number of people are.
>
> Oh, right. If you don't mind me saying, you seem a little defensive
> over this? Wiggle doesn't work for me, that doeasn't quite make me
> the man who found 'Punch' funny. I spent about £800 with CR last
> year, assiduously comparing prices because I like to shop around -
> mainly for highly unusual stuff like tyres, wheels, clothes and
> components for my faithful tourer.
>
>> The frequent buyers are the ones effectively paying for the
>> discounts. Wiggle seem to be doing very well from the repeat custom.
>
> Ah, I see. So, if I were to pay the prices asked at Wiggle for the
> items I ordered yesterday, because I'm an infrequent buyer, I'm
> asking to be milked? So, if I buy more overpriced stuff, in some kind
> of Faustian pact, I'll get some of the overprice back for being
> loyal... how charming. The fact that the price will be reduced to
> about what CR are charging is just so unfortunate...
>
> Wiggle strike me as being one of those operations who made their name
> by being cheap with excellent service, who, now trading on their
> reputation, have slipped up the prices - a bit like Dabs. They should
> be careful not to loose custom to other operations who're offering
> equal service levels at better prices.
>
> Tim

 

[Tom Crispin]

On Wed, 5 Mar 2008 22:16:36 -0000, "Pete Biggs"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>> *sigh* Here we go again. I use CR because their prices and level of
>> service have been best for me. On occasions, I've used Wiggle, Evans,
>> Mike Dyason, Climbinglegs and various LBS's. Chain Reaction's postage
>> is free, whereas Wiggle automatically do the £3 priority thing which
>> you have to cancel at the checkout.
>
>One click and it is free post. It's pedantic to call it anything other than
>free post.

A couple of times I have forgotten to click the free option for Wiggle
and have ended up with a £3 charge. It's really annoying when that
happens, and though I only have myself to blame, Wiggle should change
their automatic assumption that customers will want to pay for postage
to receive the goods a few hours earlier.

On Monday at about 9pm I placed two orders, one with Wiggle for free
delivery and one with Chain Reaction, also free delivery. The Wiggle
order arrived yesterday (without wine gums) at about 10am - the chain
reaction parcel has yet to arrive.

So even with the free delivery option, Wiggle was faster than Chain
Reaction.

 

[Trevor A Panther]

"Tim Dunne" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:M%[email protected]...
> Trevor A Panther wrote:
>
>
>> You voiced my opinions of Tim Dunne posts almost exactly so I
>> cancelled the long post I was making.
>
> Crikey! Does he take sugar?
>
>> He does seem to be carrying a huge chip about his person!
>
> Not at all, I just don't want to pay more than I have to, and I don't
> suggest others do so, either.
>
> Just out of interest, are you aware of just how pompous the opening
> paragraph of you post makes you appear? I'm sure that's not your usual
> style, and frankly, I think it's somewhat uncalled for; as a long-time
> lurker and occasional poster in these parts I'd expect more open-minded
> debate.
>
> 8<...
>
>> But I have never been let down by Wiggle , never had my credit card
>> copied by a hidden Wiggle thief
>
> Neither have I, should I have been? I've never suggested such and take
> exception to any insinuation that implies otherwise.
>
>> When I buy from Wiggle I am saying to them that I am happy with their
>> price and with their service -- and I will always have done a troll
>> around the online shops to price compare
>
> Great, we agree then. What was your point, again?
>
> Tim
> --
> Sent from Birmingham, UK... all about me at www.nervouscyclist.org
> 'Now some people say that you shouldn't tempt fate, and for them I
> cannot disagree - but I never learned nothing by playing it safe - I
> say fate should not tempt me.' - Mary Chapin Carpenter
>
>
I suggest you read your own several posts on this topic to define a pompous
poster ---"out of the mouths of babes and sucklings"

Do I have to make a point clearer for you then or are you just losing your
cool and extending your rant and, indeed, your cant

Actually you must forgive me . I should have just said that your posts and
abstruse opinions are boring

but the great thing about Usenet is that you can be as boring as you like

And I can be as pompous as you think I am. If you dislike my opinions as
expressed on this NG you have the privilege of using a killfile on me.
Fortunately I too have that ability



--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire,
England, United Kingdom.
www.tapan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk