Will Israel Strike First?

[Carrera]

"You can scorn the Christian (Catholic) faith if you wish.
The fact of the matter is that Rome - in all it's imperfections and it's terrible history - has history on it's side."

You seem to know less about world religion than I imagined, Lim.Catholicism, same as Islam, is an offshoot of Judaism. It isn't a pure religion but a huge mish mash of pagan customs and with roots in Judaism.
Judaism is perhaps the world's oldest religion. It's gnostic variant such as Kabbalah is equally ancient.
For a start, Catholics have copied the communion rite from the old Greek Mystery Religions which I happen to know something about. Many pagan religions used bread and wine as a substitute for flesh and blood.
The Catholic doctrine of Mary is probably a play on the Magna Mater - the pagan Great Mother. Even Christmas day December 25th was adopted from the pagan date and the traditional festival of the Saturnalia.
Basically, we all must know that Catholicism differs from Judaism in as much as traditional Jews didn't believe the Christos was their awaited messiah but saw him as a prophet. Christians believe he was the son of God and refer to the Christos as Chrestus by the old Roman term.
It can't be emphasised enough that both Christianity and Islam base themselves upon what is essentially a Jewish religion. The Judaic religion itself may well have influences going as far back as ancient Egypt.
Your position of attempting to somehow uphold catholicism and Islam while dismissing Judaism (the root of both relgions) is kind of illogical. Seems to me a bit like saying you believe in socialism but hate Karl Marx.

The Jewish religion is full of dogma and ritual : what about the cleansing rites ?
What about dietary rites ? And that's just for starters (excuse the pun).
The Jewish religion is extremely dogmatic in terms of Orthodox.



In theory there is no problem with wanting a homeland - it's the acquisition of the current homeland which is in dispute here.




To attempt to equate the Vatican with Israel is a novel move.

The Vatican was bequeathed by the Roman (Italian) authorities in approximately AD 300 by Constantine.
The Roman Empire converted to the Catholic (Christian faith).
There was no "takeover" as you call it : Rome had been pagan until AD 300.

The city of the Vatican is a protectorate of the Italian State.

You don't see any difference between Isreal 4,000 years ago and the Vatican ?
It might help your case if you - or anyone else - could show us even a map displaying Isreal's ancient site.
Israel never existed prior to 1948.
What you refer to Israel is a collection of provinces called Judea etc.
There was never an entity called Israel.



You can scorn the Christian (Catholic) faith if you wish.
The fact of the matter is that Rome - in all it's imperfections and it's terrible history - has history on it's side.



The Roman Catholic Church helped the Jewish people in WW2.
There are literally millions of examples which could be cited that show the RCC
tried to help and assist Jews who were presecuted.

Gino Bartali the great Italian cyclist, for example, is cited for the rescue of Jews during WW2. That's just one example.

 

[Carrera]

Let me know if you wish me to forward some articles on pagan influences, Greek religion and the origin of catholicism.

"The Metamorphoses of Apuleius, also a comic novel, presents an initiation scene into the cult of Isis, and most scholars agree that it gives tremendous insight into actual cult practices when taken seriously (snip)Certainly if any of the cult can be taken seriously it could help in our understanding of ancient religions in general."

The Jewish religion is full of dogma and ritual : what about the cleansing rites ?
What about dietary rites ? And that's just for starters (excuse the pun).
The Jewish religion is extremely dogmatic in terms of Orthodox.



In theory there is no problem with wanting a homeland - it's the acquisition of the current homeland which is in dispute here.




To attempt to equate the Vatican with Israel is a novel move.

The Vatican was bequeathed by the Roman (Italian) authorities in approximately AD 300 by Constantine.
The Roman Empire converted to the Catholic (Christian faith).
There was no "takeover" as you call it : Rome had been pagan until AD 300.

The city of the Vatican is a protectorate of the Italian State.

You don't see any difference between Isreal 4,000 years ago and the Vatican ?
It might help your case if you - or anyone else - could show us even a map displaying Isreal's ancient site.
Israel never existed prior to 1948.
What you refer to Israel is a collection of provinces called Judea etc.
There was never an entity called Israel.



You can scorn the Christian (Catholic) faith if you wish.
The fact of the matter is that Rome - in all it's imperfections and it's terrible history - has history on it's side.



The Roman Catholic Church helped the Jewish people in WW2.
There are literally millions of examples which could be cited that show the RCC
tried to help and assist Jews who were presecuted.

Gino Bartali the great Italian cyclist, for example, is cited for the rescue of Jews during WW2. That's just one example.

 

[Carrera]

What I said was Israel wasn't my speciality. That doesn't mean I don't know enough to refute many of the garbled ideas you've been broadcasting on the forum. Many of these arguments seemed to be based on wishful thinking as opposed to fact.

Au contraire mon ami BD,
Lim and I smashed him to pieces a long time ago, and with further erudite contributions from you goodself consolidated the previous situation, whereby he admitted he didn't understand SOI Zionist politics, and the situation on the West Bank and Gaza. I am of the opinion to starve him of fuel for his no doubt continued ignorance, so let him talk to himself. He doesn't have much of an audience anyway, so let's flame him.

 

[limerickman]

Catholicism, same as Islam, is an offshoot of Judaism.

Catholicism departed from Judasim 2,000 years ago :

It isn't a pure religion but a huge mish mash of pagan customs and with roots in Judaism.

The RCC faith share the Old Testament with Judaism because the OT prophesised the arrival of the Messiah.
Apart from that - both faiths are divisible and separate.

For a start, Catholics have copied the communion rite from the old Greek Mystery Religions which I happen to know something about. Many pagan religions used bread and wine as a substitute for flesh and blood.
The Catholic doctrine of Mary is probably a play on the Magna Mater - the pagan Great Mother. Even Christmas day December 25th was adopted from the pagan date and the traditional festival of the Saturnalia.
Basically, we all must know that Catholicism differs from Judaism in as much as traditional Jews didn't believe the Christos was their awaited messiah but saw him as a prophet. Christians believe he was the son of God and refer to the Christos as Chrestus by the old Roman term.
It can't be emphasised enough that both Christianity and Islam base themselves upon what is essentially a Jewish religion. The Judaic religion itself may well have influences going as far back as ancient Egypt.
Your position of attempting to somehow uphold catholicism and Islam while dismissing Judaism (the root of both relgions) is kind of illogical. Seems to me a bit like saying you believe in socialism but hate Karl Marx.

I think you'll find that both Islam and Christianity are significantly different from each other and Judaism.

For a start, Christians believe that the Messiah arrived 2,000 years ago.
Muslims believe that the last prophet sent by God is Muhammed.
the Jewish faith believe that the Messiah has not yet arrived.

The fact that Christian anniversaries co-incide with the dates of pagan festivities is immaterial.

You either accept the tenets of a faith or not : and it is pointless discussing the tenets of respective faiths because all faith is subjective.

 

[jaguar75]

as the Israelis don´t have bombers with the range to bomb Iran and don´t , themselves , have tanker support of their own it will only happen with outside help but this is not Iraq and these facilities are already operating and why can´T Iran have nuclear power ? all the treaties say they can , it´s only the US and Isreal that´s getting difficult - the US reason being that Iran has oil why does it need nuclear power .
mind you statements like these do explain why so many people consider Isreal to be the biggest threat to world peace .

Your knowledge of Military aircraft and tactics is slightly scewed. Israel WILL attack Iran if they go nuclear for one very simple reason...They have already done it once before. In 1981, just before it went operational, Israel sent 6 F-16's and 6 F-15's to Iraq to take out the "nuclear power plant". This mission was 100 % succesful. The F-16's were there to bomb the plant with the F-15's flying Mig cap. Not one single Israeli aircraft was lost and the F-15's scored several kills on Jordanian Mig's on the return flight home. This mission was text book. Arguably the best fighter pilots in the world are Israelis...

Read this

Israel is a nation that has demonstrated to the world it's politics, in that, the Israel nation does not screw around. They mean what they say and they do what they mean.

 

[darkboong]

The F-16's were there to bomb the plant with the F-15's flying Mig cap. Not one single Israeli aircraft was lost and the F-15's scored several kills on Jordanian Mig's on the return flight home.

The Israeli Air Force has never struck against prepared targets. They would have an entirely different record if they were up against -25s (Iraq bought them *after* Osirak) and Su-27s with engage on intercept orders (see the USAF F-18/F-15/F-16 vs just *TWO* MiG-25s in the Gulf War). As for the Jordanians, poor sods, MiG-29's scrambling to intercept *DO NOT ENGAGE" targets and getting shot down... Wow, big wup. Almost as brave as the US airforce dropping those two *unarmed* Libyan interceptors in Libyan territorial waters.

 

[limerickman]

The Israeli Air Force has never struck against prepared targets. They would have an entirely different record if they were up against -25s (Iraq bought them *after* Osirak) and Su-27s with engage on intercept orders (see the USAF F-18/F-15/F-16 vs just *TWO* MiG-25s in the Gulf War). As for the Jordanians, poor sods, MiG-29's scrambling to intercept *DO NOT ENGAGE" targets and getting shot down... Wow, big wup. Almost as brave as the US airforce dropping those two *unarmed* Libyan interceptors in Libyan territorial waters.

........and if I recall correctly, in 1981 Iran was in the middle of one of the most deadly wars on the 20th century with America's, err, best, err, friend in the Middle East, one Saddam Hussein, when the Israeli's attacked Iran.

How ironic.

 

[darkboong]

........and if I recall correctly, in 1981 Iran was in the middle of one of the most deadly wars on the 20th century with America's, err, best, err, friend in the Middle East, one Saddam Hussein, when the Israeli's attacked Iran.

How ironic.

Indeed. Moral of the story : Don't trust the Whitehouse as far as you could kick it. That's a lesson that the rest of the world needs to take on board fast, there's no one around to keep the Whitehouse honest anymore. Time to move on.

 

[darkboong]

........and if I recall correctly, in 1981 Iran was in the middle of one of the most deadly wars on the 20th century with America's, err, best, err, friend in the Middle East, one Saddam Hussein, when the Israeli's attacked Iran.

How ironic.

Indeed. Moral of the story : Don't trust the Whitehouse as far as you could kick it. That's a lesson that the rest of the world needs to take on board fast, there's no one around to keep the Whitehouse honest anymore. Time to move on.

 

[davidmc]

My belief is the Arab World has itself to blame for most of its misfortune. They have been blessed by massive oil resources they could have used to build dynamic economies but they have chosen to go another way. In hundreds of years they have hardly budged forwards. Now they believe Europe should simply accept responsibility for all of this and open up the borders and grant refugee status while we bend over backwards to change our culture, customs and beliefs in case they riot.
The Arab World should be made to understand how and why they failed to develop socially and economically and it should be made pretty clear they themselves bear much of the responsibility (ruling out colonial transgressions, of course). This stuff about victimhood seems to fool a lot of people but it doesn't fool all of us.
If Israel can build a free, democratic society and China and Russia can reform, why can't the Arabs?

You won't make any friends on this thread. EVERYONE here, myself excluded, is an Arab apologist, no Correct me if I am wrong. Israel is the size of Lichtenstein & all I hear is boo-hoo-hoo from the countries in that region. Why don't THEY offer the Palestinians any of their VAST landholdings instead of financing their terrorists raids

 

[FredC]

You won't make any friends on this thread. EVERYONE here, myself excluded, is an Arab apologist, no Correct me if I am wrong. Israel is the size of Lichtenstein & all I hear is boo-hoo-hoo from the countries in that region. Why don't THEY offer the Palestinians any of their VAST landholdings instead of financing their terrorists raids

Because the Palestinians want their legally held land back in their ownership, in much the same way that the jews have got their valuables back that were stolen by the Germans. So it's OK for the jews to steal land, and not OK for the Germans to steal. Get real.

 

[limerickman]

You won't make any friends on this thread. EVERYONE here, myself excluded, is an Arab apologist, no Correct me if I am wrong. Israel is the size of Lichtenstein & all I hear is boo-hoo-hoo from the countries in that region. Why don't THEY offer the Palestinians any of their VAST landholdings instead of financing their terrorists raids

As Fred said, the land that is now occupied was stolen.

That fact is no doubt lost on a poseur like you.

 

[darkboong]

You won't make any friends on this thread. EVERYONE here, myself excluded, is an Arab apologist, no Correct me if I am wrong. Israel is the size of Lichtenstein & all I hear is boo-hoo-hoo from the countries in that region. Why don't THEY offer the Palestinians any of their VAST landholdings instead of financing their terrorists raids

Seriously, why don't you offer your State to the Zionists and let the Palestinians have their land back ? I have a basic rule of thumb : Don't ask people to do anything that you wouldn't do yourself (although I have no doubt that JBG & JH can probably concoct some scenarios where that rule might get bent).

 

[Don Shipp]

You won't make any friends on this thread. EVERYONE here, myself excluded, is an Arab apologist, no Correct me if I am wrong. Israel is the size of Lichtenstein & all I hear is boo-hoo-hoo from the countries in that region. Why don't THEY offer the Palestinians any of their VAST landholdings instead of financing their terrorists raids

I'm certainly not an Arab apologist, and I agree that Careera's post highlights some of the reasons for the problems that Arabs face in their own counties and ours. And for that matter, some of the problems caused by Muslims in the Middle East and elsewhere.
But, Jews did occupy Israel illegally, and their armed forces do kill more Palestinian civilians than terrorists kill Jewish ones, by a huge margin.

 

[Don Shipp]

Seriously, why don't you offer your State to the Zionists and let the Palestinians have their land back ? I have a basic rule of thumb : Don't ask people to do anything that you wouldn't do yourself (although I have no doubt that JBG & JH can probably concoct some scenarios where that rule might get bent).

The Zionists believe that it is their God-given duty to take and possess the Promised Land; no other place on Earth will do. Not even Lichtenstein or Ohio.

 

[darkboong]

The Zionists believe that it is their God-given duty to take and possess the Promised Land; no other place on Earth will do. Not even Lichtenstein or Ohio.

Indeed, but DMC is quite happy for Palestinians to be forcibly evicted from their chosen land, so it's fair that he and the Zionists share that exact same fate. They can always rename Ohio/whatever other US state is chosen to be Israel if they choose.

 

[Don Shipp]

Indeed, but DMC is quite happy for Palestinians to be forcibly evicted from their chosen land, so it's fair that he and the Zionists share that exact same fate. They can always rename Ohio/whatever other US state is chosen to be Israel if they choose.

Fair doesn't come into it.
DMC makes it clear that he is opposed to National Policy being determined by The Church. Therefore he will not be agreeing with the Zionist's claim that Israel belongs to the Jews because God gave it to them.

 

[limerickman]

In todays Guardian newspaper - Gerald Kaufman, who is Jewish - discusses the Israel/Palestine conflict.

GK was part of a Commons fact finding mission to the disputed region and he writes of his utter dismay at the annexation of towns like Bethlehem by the Israeli's.
Kaufman - himself a Jew - says that the conditions under which Palestinians are living is intolerable : and the redeployment from location in Gaza by the Jews is actually solidifying the ground annexed in 1967, which was a further
extension of the ground taken in 1948.

The article is well written and it captures the core of the issues.

 

[davidmc]

Fair doesn't come into it.
DMC makes it clear that he is opposed to National Policy being determined by The Church. Therefore he will not be agreeing with the Zionist's claim that Israel belongs to the Jews because God gave it to them.

Thanks Don but that won't help me w/ DB. He has an agenda &, I suspect, nothing will change that.

 

[davidmc]

As Fred said, the land that is now occupied was stolen.

That fact is no doubt lost on a poseur like you.

Who designated that part of the world to be Israel anyway hmmmm Was it me I think not.