Will Sachs Ergo shifters work with xt or lx mountain group?

[Steve Knight]

I am selling my sachs 8 speed ergo shifters. and I got this question xt or lx mountain group on a
cross or tandom bike. will they work for that?

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices See http://www.knight-
toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

 

[Dave Mayer]

"Steve Knight" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I am selling my sachs 8 speed ergo shifters. and I got this question xt or
lx
> mountain group on a cross or tandom bike. will they work for that?

My experience is that Sachs Ergopower shifters do not index with Shimano rear derailleurs. BTW: all
Shimano derailleurs post 1985 are compatible, MTB or road (one exception: pre-9-speed Dura-Ace).

Anyway, the Sachs shifters pull too much cable for Shimano derailleurs, and too little for Campy
derailleurs. They index great with Sachs rear derailleurs.

 

[Jp]

Steve Knight <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I am selling my sachs 8 speed ergo shifters. and I got this question xt or lx mountain group on a
> cross or tandom bike. will they work for that?

The other response notwithstanding, it seems from your ebay ad that you use them yourself with
Shimano derailleurs. My understanding is that if it works with most Shimano road, then it should
work with xt, but someone else may have more firsthand knowledge.

I have researched this myself from a slightly different perspective, of using Modolo Morphos
shifters set to Shimano to shift Sachs derailleurs but haven't yet been able to put my hands on the
right New Success or Quarz rear to get direct observations that I can relate. From what I have read
in the archives my conclusion is that Sachs shifters are Shimano derailleur compatible but need a
Sachs 8s freewheel for perfect shifting because it's spacing is slightly different from Shimano.
There seem to be some divergent opinions on this subject and I may have made a mistake in my
analysis of the literature.

JP

 

[Qui Si Parla Ca]

steve-<< I am selling my sachs 8 speed ergo shifters. and I got this question xt or lx mountain
group on a cross or tandom bike. will they work for that? >><BR><BR>

If they still have the Sachs disc, they are compatible with sachs and shimano rear ders, all
but DA 8s..

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[Steve Knight]

>If they still have the Sachs disc, they are compatible with sachs and shimano rear ders, all
>but DA 8s..

I believe they have the sachs disc. they worked fine with a shimano RD and shimano spacers on my
campy hub and cogset. but they worked fine on a new DA 9 speed rd.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices See http://www.knight-
toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

 

[Steve Knight]

O

>My experience is that Sachs Ergopower shifters do not index with Shimano rear derailleurs. BTW: all
>Shimano derailleurs post 1985 are compatible, MTB or road (one exception: pre-9-speed Dura-Ace).
>
>Anyway, the Sachs shifters pull too much cable for Shimano derailleurs, and too little for Campy
>derailleurs. They index great with Sachs rear derailleurs.

worked fine on my 9 speed da rd.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices See http://www.knight-
toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

 

[Steve Knight]

>From what I have read in the archives my conclusion is that Sachs shifters are Shimano derailleur
>compatible but need a Sachs 8s freewheel for perfect shifting because it's spacing is slightly
>different from Shimano. There seem to be some divergent opinions on this subject and I may have
>made a mistake in my analysis of the literature.

I have a campy hub and cogset with shimano spacers (G) but they worked fine. I could not get it to
work with a chorus rd though. though maybe the spacers were sachs? my buddy who built the bike said
they were shimano.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices See http://www.knight-
toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

 

[Mike S.]

"JP" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Steve Knight <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > I am selling my sachs 8 speed ergo shifters. and I got this question xt
or lx
> > mountain group on a cross or tandom bike. will they work for that?
>
> The other response notwithstanding, it seems from your ebay ad that you use them yourself with
> Shimano derailleurs. My understanding is that if it works with most Shimano road, then it should
> work with xt, but someone else may have more firsthand knowledge.
>
> I have researched this myself from a slightly different perspective, of using Modolo Morphos
> shifters set to Shimano to shift Sachs derailleurs but haven't yet been able to put my hands on
> the right New Success or Quarz rear to get direct observations that I can relate. From what I have
> read in the archives my conclusion is that Sachs shifters are Shimano derailleur compatible but
> need a Sachs 8s freewheel for perfect shifting because it's spacing is slightly different from
> Shimano. There seem to be some divergent opinions on this subject and I may have made a mistake in
> my analysis of the literature.
>
> JP

When I was running Sachs Ergos and rear derailleur, I used to switch back and forth between Sachs FW
wheels and Shimano cassette wheels with absolutely no issues whatsoever.

I'm still kicking myself for selling that setup off... I coulda made it 9v, but I didn't realize it
at the time.

Mike

 

[Jp]

Steve Knight <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >From what I have read in the archives my conclusion is that Sachs shifters are Shimano derailleur
> >compatible but need a Sachs 8s freewheel for perfect shifting because it's spacing is slightly
> >different from Shimano. There seem to be some divergent opinions on this subject and I may have
> >made a mistake in my analysis of the literature.
>
> I have a campy hub and cogset with shimano spacers (G) but they worked fine. I could not get it to
> work with a chorus rd though. though maybe the spacers were sachs? my buddy who built the bike
> said they were shimano.

Weren't Sachs freeubs made by Campy? If so, it seems like the Sachs shifters could be the odd
situation of Shimano derailleur compatibility and Campy cassette spacing, which might be close
enough that it could work with Shimano spacing but in some cases might not? I don't know, I'm just
fishing for a theory that would explain why a lot of people say the Sachs shifters work with
Shimano and some say they don't. Maybe the ones that don't just didn't get them adjusted right and
gave up trying.

JP

 

[Mike S.]

"JP" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Steve Knight <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > >From what I have read in the archives my conclusion is that Sachs shifters are Shimano
> > >derailleur compatible but need a Sachs 8s freewheel for perfect shifting because it's spacing
> > >is slightly different from Shimano. There seem to be some divergent opinions on this subject
> > >and I may have made a mistake in my analysis of the literature.
> >
> > I have a campy hub and cogset with shimano spacers (G) but they worked
fine. I
> > could not get it to work with a chorus rd though. though maybe the
spacers were
> > sachs? my buddy who built the bike said they were shimano.
>
> Weren't Sachs freeubs made by Campy?

Sachs is a huge conglomerate of bicycle/car/motorcycle parts manufacturers in Europe. The freewheels
were made by them. It was the SHIFTERS that were made by Campy.

If so, it seems like the Sachs
> shifters could be the odd situation of Shimano derailleur compatibility and Campy cassette
> spacing, which might be close enough that it could work with Shimano spacing but in some cases
> might not? I don't know, I'm just fishing for a theory that would explain why a lot of people say
> the Sachs shifters work with Shimano and some say they don't. Maybe the ones that don't just
> didn't get them adjusted right and gave up trying.
>
> JP

See above.

Mike

 

[Jp]

"Mike S." <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet> wrote in message news:<90aTb.35114$F15.8866@fed1read06>...
> "JP" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Weren't Sachs freeubs made by Campy?
>
> Sachs is a huge conglomerate of bicycle/car/motorcycle parts manufacturers in Europe. The
> freewheels were made by them. It was the SHIFTERS that were made by Campy.

Yes, yes. Is a huge conglomerate that once but no longer makes bicycle parts having sold that part
of the business to SRAM. However, I was thinking that Sachs also had freehubs that were Campy made.
I'm not sure, that's why I was asking. I think it has been established that Sachs Maillard
freewheels had slightly different spacing than Shimano; if they also relabeled Campy freehubs, I
think we can be pretty sure that Sachs-Campy shifters are not a perfect match for a pure Shimano
drivetrain, but are close enough to usually work well.

JP

 

[A Muzi]

> Steve Knight <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>>>From what I have read in the archives my conclusion is that Sachs shifters are Shimano derailleur
>>>compatible but need a Sachs 8s freewheel for perfect shifting because it's spacing is slightly
>>>different from Shimano. There seem to be some divergent opinions on this subject and I may have
>>>made a mistake in my analysis of the literature.
>>I have a campy hub and cogset with shimano spacers (G) but they worked fine. I could not get it to
>>work with a chorus rd though. though maybe the spacers were sachs? my buddy who built the bike
>>said they were shimano.

JP wrote:
> Weren't Sachs freeubs made by Campy? If so, it seems like the Sachs shifters could be the odd
> situation of Shimano derailleur compatibility and Campy cassette spacing, which might be close
> enough that it could work with Shimano spacing but in some cases might not? I don't know, I'm just
> fishing for a theory that would explain why a lot of people say the Sachs shifters work with
> Shimano and some say they don't. Maybe the ones that don't just didn't get them adjusted right and
> gave up trying.

We sold Sachs Ergo on Shimano bikes commonly for a couple of years. We did that with Shimano
cassettes and Shimano rear changers. Yes, a Campagnolo changer has a different throw from a
Shimano/Sachs rear changer.

Sachs conformed to Shimano spec for the rear changer throw and for the rear cog spacing.
--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Jp]

A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > Steve Knight <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:<[email protected]>...
> >>>From what I have read in the archives my conclusion is that Sachs shifters are Shimano
> >>>derailleur compatible but need a Sachs 8s freewheel for perfect shifting because it's spacing
> >>>is slightly different from Shimano. There seem to be some divergent opinions on this subject
> >>>and I may have made a mistake in my analysis of the literature.
> >>I have a campy hub and cogset with shimano spacers (G) but they worked fine. I could not get it
> >>to work with a chorus rd though. though maybe the spacers were sachs? my buddy who built the
> >>bike said they were shimano.
>
> JP wrote:
> > Weren't Sachs freeubs made by Campy? If so, it seems like the Sachs shifters could be the odd
> > situation of Shimano derailleur compatibility and Campy cassette spacing, which might be close
> > enough that it could work with Shimano spacing but in some cases might not? I don't know, I'm
> > just fishing for a theory that would explain why a lot of people say the Sachs shifters work
> > with Shimano and some say they don't. Maybe the ones that don't just didn't get them adjusted
> > right and gave up trying.
>
> We sold Sachs Ergo on Shimano bikes commonly for a couple of years. We did that with Shimano
> cassettes and Shimano rear changers. Yes, a Campagnolo changer has a different throw from a
> Shimano/Sachs rear changer.
>
> Sachs conformed to Shimano spec for the rear changer throw and for the rear cog spacing.

My apologies for beating this dead horse, but the second post in this thread has a different
opinion. Also this came from the archives: "Sachs 8spd uses Campy rear sprocket spacing and a
Shimano compatible rear derailleur. So 8spd Sachs shifters with either a Sachs or Shimano rear
derailleur will shift a 5.0mm cluster (any 7spd or Campy 8spd)."
- Eric Salathe, http://tinyurl.com/3yrw5

I think it would take some very precise measurements of the movement of the derailleur with Sachs
shifters to get a definitive answer, but from what I've read it would be possible to get perfectly
satisfactory shifting from a Shimano drivetrain and Sachs shifters, regardless. Ironically, the
performance might degrade with Sachs derailleurs and Shimano spacing because the Sachs derailleurs
lack the floating pulley of Shimano, but I find it difficult to believe that the Sachs shifters were
designed for 4.8mm spacing when their own freewheels (and cassettes?) used 5.0. Could their shifters
have been different post-1997?

JP

 

[Dave Mayer]

JP: A year ago I installed a new in the box set of Sachs Ergopower shifters on a bike with a Campy
Shamal 8-speed wheelset. Campagnolo 8-speed spacing is 5.0mm cog center to center. I used a new
Ultegra (current model) short cage rear derailleur.

The setup overshifted. That is, at one end of the cogset (either top or bottom, depending on how you
tweaked the cable tension) it tried to jump a cog. No matter what I tried, I could only get 6 of the
8 cogs to index correctly. I tried it with a short cage XT derailleur with the same results.

The issue is not the cog spacing. If I had tried this with a Shimano 8-speed wheel (4.8mm cog center
to center) it obviously would have overshifted even worse.

Then, doing nothing else, I installed a Sachs New Success rear derailleur. It shifted perfectly
right away.

Lets try this again: The 1994 Sachs setup I have expects a mechanical advantage of close to 1.6 to
1. That is, the shifters expect a derailleur that will move 1.6mm to every 1mm of cable pull.
Shimano is 1.67 to 1. Old Campy takes 1.43 to 1. New Campy is 1.50 to 1.

>
> My apologies for beating this dead horse, but the second post in this thread has a different
> opinion. Also this came from the archives: "Sachs 8spd uses Campy rear sprocket spacing and a
> Shimano compatible rear derailleur. So 8spd Sachs shifters with either a Sachs or Shimano rear
> derailleur will shift a 5.0mm cluster (any 7spd or Campy 8spd)."
> - Eric Salathe, http://tinyurl.com/3yrw5
>
> I think it would take some very precise measurements of the movement of the derailleur with Sachs
> shifters to get a definitive answer, but from what I've read it would be possible to get perfectly
> satisfactory shifting from a Shimano drivetrain and Sachs shifters, regardless. Ironically, the
> performance might degrade with Sachs derailleurs and Shimano spacing because the Sachs derailleurs
> lack the floating pulley of Shimano, but I find it difficult to believe that the Sachs shifters
> were designed for 4.8mm spacing when their own freewheels (and cassettes?) used 5.0. Could their
> shifters have been different post-1997?
>
> JP

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <2aFTb.380413$JQ1.77619@pd7tw1no>,
"Dave Mayer" <[email protected]> wrote:

> JP: A year ago I installed a new in the box set of Sachs Ergopower shifters on a bike with a Campy
> Shamal 8-speed wheelset. Campagnolo 8-speed spacing is 5.0mm cog center to center. I used a new
> Ultegra (current model) short cage rear derailleur.
>
> The setup overshifted.

> Lets try this again: The 1994 Sachs setup I have expects a mechanical advantage of close to 1.6 to
> 1. That is, the shifters expect a derailleur that will move 1.6mm to every 1mm of cable pull.
> Shimano is 1.67 to 1. Old Campy takes 1.43 to 1. New Campy is 1.50 to 1.

> > Ironically, the performance might degrade with Sachs derailleurs and Shimano spacing because the
> > Sachs derailleurs lack the floating pulley of Shimano, but I find it difficult to believe that
> > the Sachs shifters were designed for 4.8mm spacing when their own freewheels (and cassettes?)
> > used 5.0. Could their shifters have been different post-1997?

Listen to Dave. I've seen his bike with a Gipiemme derailleur and indexed shifting. He knows
his stuff.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

 

[Jp]

"Dave Mayer" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<2aFTb.380413$JQ1.77619@pd7tw1no>...
> JP: A year ago I installed a new in the box set of Sachs Ergopower shifters on a bike with a Campy
> Shamal 8-speed wheelset. Campagnolo 8-speed spacing is 5.0mm cog center to center. I used a new
> Ultegra (current model) short cage rear derailleur.
>
> The setup overshifted. That is, at one end of the cogset (either top or bottom, depending on how
> you tweaked the cable tension) it tried to jump a cog. No matter what I tried, I could only get 6
> of the 8 cogs to index correctly. I tried it with a short cage XT derailleur with the same
> results.
>
> The issue is not the cog spacing. If I had tried this with a Shimano 8-speed wheel (4.8mm cog
> center to center) it obviously would have overshifted even worse.
>
> Then, doing nothing else, I installed a Sachs New Success rear derailleur. It shifted perfectly
> right away.
>
> Lets try this again: The 1994 Sachs setup I have expects a mechanical advantage of close to 1.6 to
> 1. That is, the shifters expect a derailleur that will move 1.6mm to every 1mm of cable pull.
> Shimano is 1.67 to 1. Old Campy takes 1.43 to 1. New Campy is 1.50 to 1.

You don't have to convince me. It sounds like you have done some measurements. This is great
information for anyone trying to set up a Sachs/Shimano shifting system. There are a few interesting
things about your experience, though. One is that other people seem to make the shifters work
regularly with a Shimano drivetrain. Also, if your data is correct, it will in fact work (with a
Shimano derailleur) better with Campy 8s than Shimano 8s; in fact it will be very, very close. Nor
will it be out of the realm of possibility with Shimano spacing (as we know from other people's
experience). My conclusion is: if you are going to try to use Sachs shifters with Shimano
derailleurs for 8s spacing, you will do better to try Campy spacing on the cogs.

JP

 

[Jp]

"Dave Mayer" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<2aFTb.380413$JQ1.77619@pd7tw1no>...
> JP: A year ago I installed a new in the box set of Sachs Ergopower shifters on a bike with a Campy
> Shamal 8-speed wheelset. Campagnolo 8-speed spacing is 5.0mm cog center to center. I used a new
> Ultegra (current model) short cage rear derailleur.
>
> The setup overshifted. That is, at one end of the cogset (either top or bottom, depending on how
> you tweaked the cable tension) it tried to jump a cog. No matter what I tried, I could only get 6
> of the 8 cogs to index correctly. I tried it with a short cage XT derailleur with the same
> results.
>
> The issue is not the cog spacing. If I had tried this with a Shimano 8-speed wheel (4.8mm cog
> center to center) it obviously would have overshifted even worse.
>
> Then, doing nothing else, I installed a Sachs New Success rear derailleur. It shifted perfectly
> right away.
>
> Lets try this again: The 1994 Sachs setup I have expects a mechanical advantage of close to 1.6 to
> 1. That is, the shifters expect a derailleur that will move 1.6mm to every 1mm of cable pull.
> Shimano is 1.67 to 1. Old Campy takes 1.43 to 1. New Campy is 1.50 to 1.

I took the time to do some numbers on this. If your data on mechanical advantage is correct, then
the Sachs shifters will overshift Campy 8s spacing by ~.2mm, Shimano by ~.4, assuming that they were
designed to shift 5mm spacing; if they were designed to shift 4.8mm spacing they would hit 5mm
spacing dead on with Shimano derailleurs and overshift Shimano by .2. These calculations seem to
indicate, based on your experience, that the shifters were designed for 5mm spacing. But other
results seem to indicate that they were designed for 4.8mm spacing. Which leaves the quandry: how
have so many people been able to get Sachs shifters to work with a Shimano drivetrain? A .4mm
overshift seems unworkable, but a .2 could work. I'm still left wondering whether early and later
Sachs shifters could have been different. What years were the shifters in production? Were the late
Sachs/SRAM derailleurs like the Quarz truly Shimano compatible or were they only near-compatible?

Regardless, it does seem like older, if not all, Sachs shifters with Shimano derailleurs are a
better match to Campy 8s spacing. Strangely enough, it seems like 9s Campy Ergo would be the best
choice for shifting Shimano 8s spacing with a Sachs derailleur.

Although these questions seem trivial to most, to some of us who have interest in retro derailleur
alternatives, it would be nice to nail down the answers to these questions.

JP

 

[Andrew Martin]

"Mike S." <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet> wrote in message news:<szSSb.34714$F15.658@fed1read06>...
> "JP" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Steve Knight <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > > I am selling my sachs 8 speed ergo shifters. and I got this question xt
> or lx
> > > mountain group on a cross or tandom bike. will they work for that?
> >
> > The other response notwithstanding, it seems from your ebay ad that you use them yourself with
> > Shimano derailleurs. My understanding is that if it works with most Shimano road, then it should
> > work with xt, but someone else may have more firsthand knowledge.
> >
> > I have researched this myself from a slightly different perspective, of using Modolo Morphos
> > shifters set to Shimano to shift Sachs derailleurs but haven't yet been able to put my hands on
> > the right New Success or Quarz rear to get direct observations that I can relate. From what I
> > have read in the archives my conclusion is that Sachs shifters are Shimano derailleur compatible
> > but need a Sachs 8s freewheel for perfect shifting because it's spacing is slightly different
> > from Shimano. There seem to be some divergent opinions on this subject and I may have made a
> > mistake in my analysis of the literature.
> >
> > JP
>
> When I was running Sachs Ergos and rear derailleur, I used to switch back and forth between Sachs
> FW wheels and Shimano cassette wheels with absolutely no issues whatsoever.
>
> I'm still kicking myself for selling that setup off... I coulda made it 9v, but I didn't realize
> it at the time.
>
> Mike

I have Sachs 8sp (was 7sp for years) Ergo shifters running with Sachs New Success Rear derr on
Ultegra 8sp cassette. No problems. My pulleys were shot, so I threw on an Ultegra 600 Rear derr and
it just wouldn't shift right. I rescued my Sach Rear derr from the garbage, bought some aftermarket
pulleys and I'm back in business. I was always told that Sachs used Shimano spacing as Campy's means
of "infiltrating" the Shimano market.

-a

 

[Jp]

[email protected] (Andrew Martin) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> I have Sachs 8sp (was 7sp for years) Ergo shifters running with Sachs New Success Rear derr on
> Ultegra 8sp cassette. No problems. My pulleys were shot, so I threw on an Ultegra 600 Rear derr
> and it just wouldn't shift right. I rescued my Sach Rear derr from the garbage, bought some
> aftermarket pulleys and I'm back in business. I was always told that Sachs used Shimano spacing as
> Campy's means of "infiltrating" the Shimano market.

According to my theory, Sachs shifter and derailleur + Shimano 8s cassette = .2mm overshifting,
which should work. But my theory also allows for the likely possibility that Sachs shifters may have
gone to Shimano 8s cassette spacing in 1998, when the Sachs 8s spacing went to
4.8mm (may have corresponded to Sachs going from 8s freewheel to 8s cassette).

If Campy wants to infiltrate the Shimano market all they have to do is bring out some Shimano
campatible Ergo shifters. Judging from what I have read here there is great dissatisfaction with STI
reliability and maintainability, and to a lesser degree, their function and appearance.

JP