Winningtime's Shoddy Service!!!

[Eldron]

I hate Winningtime, my friends hate Winningtime, my fiance hates Winningtime - in fact nobody I know has ever had anything positive to say about (ggggptooey) Winningtime....<br /><br />But still they have decent market share....and the Argus!<br /><br />They must be WAAAAAY cheaper than Championchip because there is no other way they could keep their market share based on the late results, wrong results, lack of info (finishing position, category position etc), dodgy website and a host of other complaints I couldn't be bothered to type.<br /><br />Perhaps race organisers don't know we're unhappy with Winningtime....IT'S TIME TO CHANGE ALL THAT....<br /><br />Mail the Argus race office and tell them about your Winningtime experience and hopefully we'll turn the tide against an organisation that couldn't even be bothered to provide a South African website for their product.<br /><br />Power to the consumer!!!<br /><br />The Argus race office email is: [email protected]<br /><br />ps: If you've had a positive experience with Winningtime please feel free to post that too. I'd hate to dog a company that does enjoy large support in SA (maybe I'm wrong and my fiance is wrong and my friends are wrong and everybody I know is wrong.....)<br /><br />

 

[Eldron]

Here's my email if you need some pointers or motivation. You're welcome to copy and paste!<br /><br /><br /><br />Just a short email to voice my dissatisfaction with your choice of timing chip company.<br /><br />I have ridden just about every race and fun ride in South Africa and am constantly disappointed by Winningtime - their results are late, wrong, hard to find, don't provide enough detail (overall position, gender position, category position etc). Their website is also of poor quality and difficult to navigate. Even the appearance of their product is shoddy (not to mention uncomfortable to wear).<br /><br />My suggestion for a timing company is ChampionChip. For the following reasons:<br />- They have a great LOCAL website (easy to navigate, lovely list of all the races you've completed using a ChampionChip, copious amounts of information)<br />- There is an option to fit the chip to your front fork (more comfortable and no need to rip it off your leg when you're tired after a race)<br />- Results are out within days<br />- Results aren't mysteriously corrected (as was the case with the recent 94.7)<br /><br />If you need any further motivation please contact me on the numbers below.<br /><br />Thank you for your time!

 

[EPO]

Great idea Eldron. I have done my share as well. ;D

 

[Vo2]

Maybe we can post a message on the Argus BB as well?<br /><br />What I don't understand is why do they go with winningtime anyway, when it's an offshore company (Italian or something?) Surely championchip, which is a local company run by local people is logistically &quot;easier&quot;? Aren't we supposed to be &quot;proudly South African&quot;? Maybe it's a boetie-boetie thing?

 

[Eldron]

[quote author=Vo2 link=board=10;threadid=2719;start=0#23335 date=1039078432]<br />Maybe we can post a message on the Argus BB as well?<br /><br />What I don't understand is why do they go with winningtime anyway, when it's an offshore company (Italian or something?) Surely championchip, which is a local company run by local people is logistically &quot;easier&quot;? Aren't we supposed to be &quot;proudly South African&quot;? Maybe it's a boetie-boetie thing?<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Right - I've posted a message on the Argus BB.<br /><br />The good news is I got this email from the race office:<br /><br /><br /><br />Dear Mr Fitzell - <br /><br />Thank you for your comments, which have been noted and forwarded to the members of the Management Committee.<br /><br />Kind regards<br /><br />Pat White<br /><br />Administration Manager for the Events Management Trust<br /><br />Event Organisers of:<br />Cape Argus Pick 'n Pay Cycle Tour<br />Cape Times FNB Big Walk<br /><br /><br />On the forward list were: Denzil Ulyate; Jill Wilmans; Ken Sturgeon; David Bellairs; Alec Lenferna<br /><br />Some big names in there - I hope they actually read their mail!<br /><br />It will be interesting to see if my (our) little crusade gets anywhere.....<br />

 

[EPO]

I got about the same reply back as well..

 

[Vo2]

Posted by Big_H<br /><br />IMPORTANT NEWS - We now have to purchase a Winningtime Chip to take part in Argus seeding events!!!!!! <br />Message: The Liberty Ride for Sight is going to cost me as a Tandem pair R380-00!!!!! We will now only be able to take part in the Argus and seeding events if we have our own Winningtime chip. They (mainly the Argus organisers) have imposed this on us and leave us no choice. We have to purchase this chip for R80-00 and nobody can tell us what we will get for our money. If we will get the same fiasco as with the 94,7 where I after three weeks still do not know where I finished (position , age group gender etc) I am NOT INTERESTED in supporting any of these races. I think it is high time that we let the organisers know that we, as competotors or &quot;clients&quot; also demand certain respect in decisions taken on our behalf. Will we also now see a reduction in entry fees ..... I sincerely doubt it because organisers are arrogant enough to assume that cyclists will cough up. Please contact the race office for the Liberty life race at 011 - 504 6800 and complain about this attitude. Also visit the ARGUS website and phone or email them and voice your opinion about this. IT IS TIME THAT WE, WHO PAY FOT THEIR RACES VOICE OUR OPINION AND IF NECCESARY BOIKOT THE RACES WHERE THIS IS HAPPENING!!!!! Keep those wheels spinning and stand united in this one!!!!!! Big H

 

[Eldron]

<br />So here's the deal - I thought maybe I'd given Winningtime a raw deal with all the negative publicity I've been giving them lately so I devised a little test to see how good the two companies were.<br /><br />I've recently done the 94.7 (Winningtime) and the Coca Cola Challenge (Championchip) so I decided to see which result I could find first/easiest.<br /><br />I logged onto Winningtime.com and tried to find recent races/results etc which is a problem cos the site is in italian. I looked for a little Union Jack for the english version - no such luck. I scrolled through a few pages of what I think is recent races looking for anything that says ciclismo - no luck. I give up<br /><br />I log onto CHampionChip.co.za (please note the ZA portion!!). Click on latest results. Click on Coca Cola Challenge. Type in my name and BANG I have my results in less than a minute....I also have my gender, category and overall result! Then I really go overboard and check the results for the juniors, vets, masters, ladies etc etc etc. COOL! Then I click on 'more info on this participant' and find all the races I've done with ChampionChip.<br /><br />At this point I think about buying a Winningtime chip and start laughing.....

 

[Vo2]

Over the last few years, cycling has experienced enormous growth here in South Africa. It is difficult to drive around nowadays and not find numerous cyclists on the road. When we choose to do things voluntarily, we usually choose things we enjoy, and cycling is no exception. Judging by some of the bikes and cycling accessories that people own, it's easy to see that even the laid-back folks are willing to fork out for their chosen sport. Unfortunately, the business people out there know this, and they capitalise on it. We all appreciate and accept the fact that it takes money to organise an event such as the Argus, huge amounts of money. At 175/entry, we as cyclists contribute the first R6 000 000.00 for staging the event. And yes, I've seen and read the article concerning the amount of money it takes to put a cyclist on the road.<br />In return for an entry fee, we get to be part of the biggest timed cycling event in the world. A few weeks ago, we were part of the second biggest timed cycling event in the world, the 94.7. The guys that did the timing, however, proved to us (once again) that they are either not interested, or that they are not capable. Why the organisers have so much faith in these guys to supply the timing technology for the biggest timed cycling event in the world then, only they will know. If the timing were offered free of charge to the cyclists, then fine, we should be happy. But it's not free of charge. And if I pay for something, then I want something in return. If I'm not happy with the product, then I either want something else or I want my money back. That's the way it works - everywhere. It's called fair trade. Winningtime, I'm afraid, is NOT fair trade.<br />Why have Championchip never been given the opportunity to time the 94.7 or the Argus? After all, they do time the Comrades Marathon and the Two Oceans, and if that is not proof of their competence, then what is? Maybe there is something else behind this whole timing debacle? Would it be silly to speculate that there are a few commonalities between Winningtime and P+P Argus Cycle Tour Board Members? Commonalities such as the people that are in decision making positions around the Argus table, are maybe the same people that make decisions around the Winningtime table? Who knows? But if were true, then excuse me sir, that ain't fair trade.<br />The shortcomings of Winningtime have been mentioned by numerous members in this thread, and on the Argus BB just the same. If only two people were unhappy amongst 1000's, then OK, deal with those two. But when 1000's are unhappy, you then deal with the company.<br />I own a Championchip. I had the option of renting a chip or buying one. I bought one because 1&gt; their website works 2&gt; the results are always uploaded by the next day 3&gt; they have people whom I can contact if I have a problem, either by e-mail or by telephone, and they speak ENGLISH! 4&gt; They have given me great service on and off the bike and 5&gt; THEY ARE PROUDLY SOUTH AFRICAN!<br />Converting ALL timed cycling events to Championchip will bring an end to the timing headache. The Comrades Marathon uses Championchip, as do the Two Oceans and most major marathons in the country. It just makes absolute logical sense to issue an athlete with a chip which he or she can use at any event throughout the country, be it cycling, running or whatever. &quot;Almost 100 000 different people compete in more than 900 road-running events in South Africa each year. The one factor which is common to every single participant in every single race is that they want their time to be taken accurately and they then want to know what their race time is. Add in about 60 000 cyclists, as well as thousands of triathletes, swimmers and participants in other sports events who are all just as obsessive about results and times, and it is obvious that the timing and presentation of the results at events throughout South Africa is one of the most important aspects of organising a race&quot; ...and that means cycling events too, Mr. Race Organiser!<br /><br />Quote taken from www.championchip.co.za

 

[Vo2]

Alec Leferna, Event manager of the Argus CT, posted this message on the Cycletour message board:<br /><br />I feel it necessary to comment on a few issues that have been raised on our message board. There has been much discussion (albeit from only a few people) of late re Winning Time (WT) vs Championchip (CC) as the timing partner for the Cycle Tour. WT has timed the Cycle Tour since 1999 with great success, to the point where within an hour after completing the ride, entrants are able to view their unofficial times on our website. Further to this, we publish finish times and overall positions (provisional) within 72 hours in the newspapers and on the certificates, we then supply event time, overall position, gender position,position within group, age group position and index - fairly substantial information. This is a choice that we have made, and is a service that we pay for. Not all events choose to do this, and the current points being raised about WT should perhaps be viewed in relation to what each of the seeding events have requested from their timing partner and what service they are paying for. It would also be better for people to air their grievences about other events on those events message boards - those problems have little or nothing to do with us. The CC system does not suit us as they insist that the database then belongs to them, all results will be published on their website and we will have to accept Old Mutual as a sponsoring partner - all conditions that we find unacceptable for a host of reasons not least of which being that we want to be able to control our own data on our own website. We have never used this data for commercial gain, and refuse to allow others to do so. All of our dealings are with WT Italy - it is true that Dave Bellairs is involved in the Cycle Tour and he has managed certain elements of the timing process for other events around the country, but he has nothing to do with our arrangements whatsoever - something that has been written into his Trustees document. We believe that we are at liberty to choose whom we want to do business with, and in this respect, WT suits our requirements. There have never been major problems with regard to timing of the Cycle Tour since their intoduction of electronic timing, an undisputable fact and one that I am sure all entrants will agree with. To ask people to vote on the issue would also be tantamount to us asking each company out there to have a public poll about how they should run their own businesses - a totally unacceptable scenario. It should also be remembered that CC started the issue of purchasing chips - the fact that WT have now adopted this business model in SA, as has been the case throughout the world for many years, is a fact that was presented to us as a client and one that we did not have a whole lot of control over. We are now able to compare apples with apples between the two systems, and we firmly belive that WT is the right system for us at this point in time. Alec Lenferna - Event Manager

 

[Colin]

I quote the following from the above message: “The CC system does not suit us as they insist that the database then belongs to them, all results will be published on their website and we will have to accept Old Mutual as a sponsoring partner - all conditions that we find unacceptable for a host of reasons not least of which being that we want to be able to control our own data on our own website. We have never used this data for commercial gain, and refuse to allow others to do so.” I feel that it is important to put this statement into context, in that the Argus was approached directly by the Old Mutual who offered to sponsor the ChampionChip services to the event and the conditions outlined above are directly related to the requirements of the proposed sponsorship rather than the requirements of ChampionChip as stated above. This can be more clearly understood by viewing the Comrades Marathon and Two Oceans Results, both of which are timed using ChampionChip. These condition would not apply to an event using a paid for service from ChampionChip however may be requirements for a sponsor who is offering to pay the bill. www.twooceansmarathon.org.za www.comrades.com <br />

 

[big_h]

Thanx for the reply but please look at comments on cyclingforums.com <br />Message: Thanx for your comments Alec but please look at the comments on cyclingforums.com under &quot;Your bloody soap box&quot; under the topic &quot;Winningtime's Shoddy Service&quot; Since this was posted on 05 December 2002 there has been 10 replies and 115 people visited. I do not think it is the ARGUS that is the porblem, it is the other race organisers and the fact that we know through dire experience that we do not get the same service from WT as we get from CC. Nobody can tell us what we will get for our R80-00!!!!!! Al they can do is threat that we will not get any ARGUS seeding if we do not buy this infernal @(($#^%#@$^*# chip. Big H <br /> <br />Name: tandem <br />

 

[Vo2]

Alec Leferna, Event manager of the Argus CT, posted this message on the Cycletour message board:<br /><br />&quot;I feel it necessary to comment on a few issues that have been raised on our message board. There has been much discussion (albeit from only a few people) <br /><br />It would be a mistake to judge the majority of cyclists feelings toward WT by the number of replies on the message boards. All in all, there are approximately 20 replies (and counting) from different individuals complaining about WT, compared to ONE reply (this one) that seems to be happy i.e. 20:1<br /><br />of late re Winning Time (WT) vs Championchip (CC) as the timing partner for the Cycle Tour. WT has timed the Cycle Tour since 1999 with great success, to the point where within an hour after completing the ride, entrants are able to view their unofficial times on our website. Further to this, we publish finish times and overall positions (provisional) within 72 hours in the newspapers and on the certificates, we then supply event time, overall position, gender position,position within group, age group position and index - fairly substantial information.<br /><br />The Argus/WT relationship may have been good up to now, but when will the same thing happen to the Argus as has happened to the recent 94.7? Why wait 3 days for substantial information from WT, when we can have the same substantial information from CC on the same day?<br /><br />This is a choice that we have made, and is a service that we pay for. Not all events choose to do this, and the current points being raised about WT should perhaps be viewed in relation to what each of the seeding events have requested from their timing partner and what service they are paying for. It would also be better for people to air their grievences about other events on those events message boards - those problems have little or nothing to do with us.<br /><br />True, but these &quot;other&quot; events are used as seeding events for YOUR event, using the same dysfunctional timing system. Once again a case of us and them, and the way cycling seems to go in South Africa.<br /><br />The CC system does not suit us as they insist that the database then belongs to them, all results will be published on their website and we will have to accept Old Mutual as a sponsoring partner - all conditions that we find unacceptable for a host of reasons not least of which being that we want to be able to control our own data on our own website. We have never used this data for commercial gain, and refuse to allow others to do so.<br /><br />Strange though that both the Comrades Marathon and the Two Oceans Marathon posts results on their website?<br /><br />All of our dealings are with WT Italy - it is true that Dave Bellairs is involved in the Cycle Tour and he has managed certain elements of the timing process for other events around the country, but he has nothing to do with our arrangements whatsoever - something that has been written into his Trustees document. We believe that we are at liberty to choose whom we want to do business with, and in this respect, WT suits our requirements. There have never been major problems with regard to timing of the Cycle Tour since their intoduction of electronic timing, an undisputable fact and one that I am sure all entrants will agree with. To ask people to vote on the issue would also be tantamount to us asking each company out there to have a public poll about how they should run their own businesses - a totally unacceptable scenario. It should also be remembered that CC started the issue of purchasing chips - the fact that WT have now adopted this business model in SA, as has been the case throughout the world for many years, is a fact that was presented to us as a client and one that we did not have a whole lot of control over. <br /><br />So the WT/Argus relationship is just about set in stone then? Whatever WT decides to do, be it for better or for worse, the Argus goes along with it? How many cyclists own a WT chip? A few, if any. How many cyclists own a Championchip? Almost everyone. The CC system is in place, it works and people trust it. At this stage in time, WT does not breed confidence.<br /><br />We are now able to compare apples with apples between the two systems, and we firmly belive that WT is the right system for us at this point in time.&quot;<br /><br />First compare, then decide

 

[Rhodent]

I think something that does have to be mentioned re winningtime is their presence in the western cape. I think pedalpower western cape have them as their official timing method, as when we went down for the double century it was assumed that everyone would have a chip already and there was an extra payment if you didn't..

 

[Vo2]

I am honestly dissapointed to see that the messages relating to the WT/CC issue have been removed from the Cycletour messageboard. Sure, it's their site and they can run it as they please, but I feel that they have snuffed out the voices of the cyclists that support their race. Point taken that some of the issues have nothing to do with Cycletour, but there are some shared commonalities.<br />We can only go forward from here, and I'm sure that WT will be on their toes and play their game very carefully from now on.<br />I still support ChampionChip and believe that they have set the standards here in South Africa regarding the timing of events, the presentation of the results and their relationship with their customers. Thank you and well done ChampioChip.<br />Right now WT is playing catchup, and we the customers have clearly shown them the path to follow and the standards we expect them to meet at minimum.<br />Let it be known and understood...

 

[Eldron]

Congrats to Dave (WTime chap) for responding to our barrage.<br /><br />He seems to have the right ideas - whether the ideas were already there or were planted by us I have no idea.<br /><br />Either way he is now aware of the problem(s) and will hopefully do something about it.<br /><br />Personally I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and redress this issue after Argus 2003 - that should give WTime enough time to sort the website, educate the race organisers and set up the full time Jhb branch.

 

[admin]

[quote author=Eldron link=board=10;threadid=2719;start=15#23507 date=1039596390]<br />Congrats to Dave (WTime chap) for responding to our barrage.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />He did? ???

 

[Black Knight]

I just got the following from Champion chip. While I appreciate the quality of service that CC gives, I am knowledgeable enough to know that one of the only things that will keep them in check is the fact that there is a competitor.<br />In light of that, I am quite appalled that they will go to this length just to dis the competition. <br /><br />I will rather watch from the sidelines, and as is said may the best (better) win.<br /><br />&quot;There has been a lot of debate over the quality of timing services in South African races over recent months. As a service company, the team at ChampionChip are always interested in knowing if our service delivery can be improved or may be failing you the user in any way. As a result we are always interested in any polls that keep us informed of your satisfaction. We have recently found a site called www.cyclingforums.com that is running a poll of electronic timing services. We have selected some of the more active ChampionChip users of which you are one and would like to encourage you to cast your vote on this site. You can get directly to the poll from this LINK. You will need to register on this site to be able to cast your vote. There is also much debate on the issue of electronic timing and results services on the forum on this LINK. Over and above the timing poll, this site has many interesting forums relating to cycling and many ChampionChip users should find it a worthwhile site to use on a regular basis.<br /><br />We look forward to you voting.<br /><br />Yours in Sport&quot;

 

[Andrew Dixon]

[quote author=Eldron link=board=10;threadid=2719;start=0#23327 date=1039014904]<br />I hate Winningtime, my friends hate Winningtime, my fiance hates Winningtime - in fact nobody I know has ever had anything positive to say about (ggggptooey) Winningtime....<br /><br />But still they have decent market share....and the Argus!<br /><br />They must be WAAAAAY cheaper than Championchip because there is no other way they could keep their market share based on the late results, wrong results, lack of info (finishing position, category position etc), dodgy website and a host of other complaints I couldn't be bothered to type.<br /><br />Perhaps race organisers don't know we're unhappy with Winningtime....IT'S TIME TO CHANGE ALL THAT....<br /><br />Mail the Argus race office and tell them about your Winningtime experience and hopefully we'll turn the tide against an organisation that couldn't even be bothered to provide a South African website for their product.<br /><br />Power to the consumer!!!<br /><br />The Argus race office email is: [email protected]<br /><br />ps: If you've had a positive experience with Winningtime please feel free to post that too. I'd hate to dog a company that does enjoy large support in SA (maybe I'm wrong and my fiance is wrong and my friends are wrong and everybody I know is wrong.....)[/quote]<br /><br />Winning time suck!! :'( We get much better service from Champion Chip. Go guys.

 

[Colin]

Hi Black Knight, <br /><br />I am sorry to offend you, but I will NEVER “dis” any competitor. I believe in competition and welcome it. The Poll is here to get the opinion of cyclists, but it is not of much value if people do not know that it is there. The feedback from the users is what drives our business and these forums are important tools in that regard. I am not sure in what way you feel my encouragement of people to use the poll and forums is “dising” our competitors, but I would be interested to hear so that we could avoid any miss intended statement in the future. Please feel free to contact me directly.<br />