Winter cycling clothes

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by alienator [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Only to a point, thus the reason for dry suits. After a while any wetsuit or liquid insulation cannot provide enough insulating value to prevent heat loss.

I'm not following you. It's my understanding that the only difference between a dry suit and a wet suit is that a dry suit reduces water circulation to zero and that they both insulate in the same way: tiny air bubbles within the neoprene. I'm not sure what you mean by "liquid insulation". I'm assuming you don't mean water, because water isn't an insulator.

"...and german army pants over tights"

Hah! The old wool winter pants or the newer Flecktarn camo pattern? Milsurp clothing makes up some of my hunting wear, but other than using USGI wool glove liners, I never thought to try the wool stuff for cycling.

FWIW, the euro wool sweaters are dirt cheap and should make good cycling insulation.

gudujarlson said:

I'm not following you. It's my understanding that the only difference between a dry suit and a wet suit is that a dry suit reduces water circulation to zero and that they both insulate in the same way: tiny air bubbles within the neoprene. I'm not sure what you mean by "liquid insulation". I'm assuming you don't mean water, because water isn't an insulator.

The water between you and your wetsuit does provide an effective thermal barrier, which is also what insulation does/is. Dry suits are used for dives in very cold water or extended dives in cold water. They are used because at the temperatures at which they're used, your body could not transfer enough heat to the water in a wetsuit, over time, to sustain a safe body temperature. It's just a thermodynamic reality. It's all a function of body surface area, heat transfer rates, and finite energy source the body has.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by alienator [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

The water between you and your wetsuit does provide an effective thermal barrier, which is also what insulation does/is. Dry suits are used for dives in very cold water or extended dives in cold water. They are used because at the temperatures at which they're used, your body could not transfer enough heat to the water in a wetsuit, over time, to sustain a safe body temperature. It's just a thermodynamic reality. It's all a function of body surface area, heat transfer rates, and finite energy source the body has.

I do I relate what you are saying to what this wikipedia page is saying:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetsuit

"The layer of warm water normally trapped between the suit and the skin provides very little thermal insulation, contrary to popular beliefs regarding wetsuits."

"Water has a thermal conductivity of 0.58 Wm−1K−1 while still air has a thermal conductivity of 0.024 Wm−1K−1"

"Uncompressed foam neoprene has a typical thermal conductivity in the region of 0.054 Wm−1K−1,"

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by alienator [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

The water between you and your wetsuit does provide an effective thermal barrier, which is also what insulation does/is. Dry suits are used for dives in very cold water or extended dives in cold water. They are used because at the temperatures at which they're used, your body could not transfer enough heat to the water in a wetsuit, over time, to sustain a safe body temperature. It's just a thermodynamic reality. It's all a function of body surface area, heat transfer rates, and finite energy source the body has.

I use the neoprene Castelli booties on the coldest days and my feet are pretty toasty - nothing but ankle socks and regular cleats underneath, As far as water, my feet, the socks and my cleats are usually soaking wet from sweat after the ride, but still very warm. I need to de-sweat the cleats with a clean water rinse after.

danfoz said:

 I use the neoprene Castelli booties on the coldest days and my feet are pretty toasty - nothing but ankle socks and regular cleats underneath, As far as water, my feet, the socks and my cleats are usually soaking wet from sweat after the ride, but still very warm. I need to de-sweat the cleats with a clean water rinse after.

They're not a problem most of the time, but as I said above if you stop for an extended break or have a flat or summat in the cold, they can become a problem. They can also be a problem for folks with poor circulation. While the conditions were likely much different, the list of mountaineers and cold weather outdoorsmen who've frostbitten and possibly lost toes or chunks of feet because of such things isn't short. What I said was meant as a consideration not as a dire warning.

The right kit for the right time is important. I will be doing a review of the kit I won on this site shortly. Thats right I won it on this site. 8 months ago. As soon as it comes in I will give it a review.

Quote:Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG] "...and german army pants over tights"

Hah! The old wool winter pants or the newer Flecktarn camo pattern? WOOL!

I got a winter jacket (Craft PB Stretch) and wore it today - it was about 2C/35F - with one base layer (a warm one - Zero Extreme with WS). Very soon I was sweating and throughout the whole ride I felt wet. Not cold but soaking wet. Is that normal? In summer even on the hottest days when I was drinking/sweating buckets I don't remember feeling that wet. How is layering/wicking supposed to work - where should the moisture go? Should all the layers be breathable? Or should I aim to feel a bit colder and not sweat that much?

"How is layering/wicking supposed to work - where should the moisture go?"

Wicking is vastly over-rated IMO.I rely on ventilation/evaporation to control moisture.

"Should all the layers be breathable?"

Again, IMO unless it is insanely cold (and 35° F does not fall into the CampyBob Cycling Institute 'Insanely MF Cold!' calibrated thermal range) I use all breathable layers.

I 'might' use a wind shell light jacket if the wind speed is in the 20-25 MPH range and the temperature is in the low thirties. The constant climbing in my 'hood keeps the sweat levels up for even light tempo workouts, so I dress lighter and work harder to stay warm.

Stopping to fix a flat can be a cold [censored].

"Or should I aim to feel a bit colder and not sweat that much?"

That's what I try to do. That, and limit workout lengths when it gets really cold. My toes tend to determine ride duration anyways. Does your jacket have adjustable vents? You might try running the front zipper down a bit and opening up the underarm vents if it has them. Personally, my jackets only go on when it's below freezing (and/or stupid windy). Everyone reacts differently to air temp, humidity, workout intensity, etc.

You say you weren't cold, just wet...maybe you were just a bit too insulated or under-ventilated? Play around and find the happy medium on comfort and keep a record of what works in your log book.

Thanks - I think I'll start writing things down!

The jacket has no vents and perhaps it is too warm for above freezing. It was all wet and the humidity today seemed like 100% (melting snow from yesterday's snowfall) so not surprised it didn't evaporate much.

bartsie said:

I got a winter jacket (Craft PB Stretch) and wore it today - it was about 2C/35F - with one base layer (a warm one - Zero Extreme with WS). Very soon I was sweating and throughout the whole ride I felt wet. Not cold but soaking wet. Is that normal? In summer even on the hottest days when I was drinking/sweating buckets I don't remember feeling that wet. How is layering/wicking supposed to work - where should the moisture go? Should all the layers be breathable? Or should I aim to feel a bit colder and not sweat that much?

When you start you should be cool or cold for the first few miles. Also, 35° isn't terribly cold for a day on a bike, so your base layer may have been a bit too much. How to layer is really dependent on you and the conditions in which you are outdoors. If I were you under similar temps, I'd try the jacket with a shorts sleeved jersey or lightweight short sleeved base layer. Layering doesn't do everything by itself, though. You need to actively monitor your temp or sweat level, and when you got hot or start to feel a bit moist, open up some vents in the jacket or open the front zip to whatever position solves the issue. Wicking layers are very effective, but you can overwhelm the wicking layers by either dressing too warmly or not ventilating properly. There have many times were I've been working hard in the cold and my base layer and middle layer have worked so well that they transferred the moisture to my outer layers which then frosted. No matter what, if you don't layer properly for the conditions and/or don't ventilate properly, you will end up wet and cold.

When the temperature dips into dangerously cold temperatures, I carry extra layers on my person. Typically I will roll up and wrap a jacket around my waist and carry extra mitts and other dry items in my backpack. That way should I need to stop for a repair or other emergency, I can throw the layers on to stay warm.

maydog said:

When the temperature dips into dangerously cold temperatures, I carry extra layers on my person. Typically I will roll up and wrap a jacket around my waist and carry extra mitts and other dry items in my backpack. That way should I need to stop for a repair or other emergency, I can throw the layers on to stay warm.

Good thinking.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by alienator [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

While the conditions were likely much different, the list of mountaineers and cold weather outdoorsmen who've frostbitten and possibly lost toes or chunks of feet because of such things isn't short.

Regarding the water insulation layer under neoprene, I've had much success on rides with less than 5-10 minutes stop time. The right materials for the right conditions should always go without saying.

Just reading through all these posts shows the different mindsets and approaches to staying warm and that in many cases it took trial and error to get to the perfect combination for what works for each individual under the given circumstance.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by maydog [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

When the temperature dips into dangerously cold temperatures, I carry extra layers on my person. Typically I will roll up and wrap a jacket around my waist and carry extra mitts and other dry items in my backpack. That way should I need to stop for a repair or other emergency, I can throw the layers on to stay warm.

Maydog, a few of the veteran riders here put rear racks on their bikes and keep everything in a small trunk bag. It's nice to be able to start out warm and then store a jacket, vest, warmers as the day warms up. Plus, having a rain jacket on a winter day with an unexpected rain shower makes a huge difference. And, the rack serves as a decent fender. If you've ever had a wet road put a nice grimy stripe down the back of your the jersey and then run down into the shorts, you know what I'm talking about.

Sure, you'll carry a few extra pounds with a rack, trunk bag and comfort gear, but most of us are carrying a lot more than that in fat this time of year.....or soon will be.

dhk2 said:

....but most of us are carrying a lot more than that in fat this time of year.....or soon will be.Â

Speak for yourself, Charlie. I've lost weight in the last 5 weeks. 😄

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by dhk2 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

It's nice to be able to start out warm and then store a jacket, vest, warmers as the day warms up.

I'm one of these guys. Enough cold starts where I never really warmed up properly and just suffered for the ride's duration was enough to convince me. The only two "discomforts" on the bike I enjoy are climbing and chasing someone down.

danfoz said:

I'm one of these guys. Enough cold starts where I never really warmed up properly and just suffered for the ride's duration was enough to convince me. The only two "discomforts" on the bike I enjoy are climbing and chasing someone down.

What about the discomfort that would be caused by drafting Team Vanderkitten?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by alienator [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

What about the discomfort that would be caused by drafting Team Vanderkitten?

Any discomfort related to Team Vanderkitten would likely occur from excessive friction burns. I can live with those.