Winter Duatholon-strength and FTP

[kopride]

Although this was discussed on another thread, those interested in a little winter strength training are invited to participate in the first ever Deadlift/FTP Duathalon.

The goal in the heavyweight division (175 pounds or over) is reaching both an FTP of 300 and a Deadlift of 300 by the ides of March (March 15, 2009 for you non-Romans). The lightweight division, or under 175 is a similar ratio, about 3.78w/kg and a Dead Lift (or squat) equal to 1.71 of your bodyweight. The DL and FTP readings must occur within 10 days of each other to avoid selectively training for one event over the other. We reserve the right to request verification by way of a posted ride file and/or picture or video of you locked out with 300.

So far, this is a personal quest between JS and I, though Felt is being slowly sucked in through the application of peer pressure.

FAQ:

Why DL?

A: Why not, a deadlift is a pretty good overall test of functional strength. Unlike squats, you will probably still have legs left to ride

Will DL make me a better cyclist?

A: This is controversial, but Deadlifts will definitely make you a better deadlifter. In any event, we think it is important for deadlifting cyclists to come out of the closet. We even have a slogan: "We're strong, we know its wrong, but we are going to do it anyway." So you purists should save their criticism.

Can I carry a gun while I deadlift?

A: Yes, but make sure it doesn't fall out of your sweatpants at the health club, and you must weigh in with the gun if you are in the lightweight division. But the purposes of doing DLs is that maybe you won't need to carry one while you ride any more.

Can I take viagra while I deadlift"

A: Yes, but you can't take viagra and carry a gun while you deadlift. Again, the purposes of deadlifting and getting stronger is that you won't need viagra.

Shouldn't you be posting this on a strength forum rather than a cycling forum?

A: We are deadlifting cyclists not cycling deadlifters. Please don't confuse the two since we have a completely different organizational structure.

Is there a prize or recognition?

A: No official prize other than the love of thousands of fans

 

[frenchyge]

Q: Who will pay my doctor's bills when my puny, type-I laden sticks snap from the excessive weight?

 

[kopride]

Q: Who will pay my doctor's bills when my puny, type-I laden sticks snap from the excessive weight?

If you are in the lightweight division, you have to DL less weight. For example, 130 pounds, you are only Deadlifting about 222, which is very managable. There are 105 pound women that deadlift 300 pounds. Also, there are a lot of wiry guys that are very strong in this type of lift. Deadlift is all about technique.

Google deadlift and there are a lot of great resources showing proper form and technique. It is a standard competitive lift so there is a lot out there demonstrating proper form and training plans.

If you want to be able to leave that glock at home, you have to at least get 222 up off the ground.

 

[tonyzackery]

I would like to get in on this just especially for the DL portion (350lbs would be the target at my 200lb current weight), but because I hypertrophy something terrible when lifting heavy weights (the lats, and mid and upper back especially), I must opt out. Additional upper body mass is something I need like some extra holes in my head. Why can't I be lucky enough to get cancer and drop some unnecessary muscle mass???? Some people have all the luck...

Anyway, mitochondrial dilution for this type II guy is a particularly counterproductive, and increasing the ftp is my primary goal this winter. I must admit though DLs are the ONLY lifts I do (no more than 225lbs for reps) in my garage. Furthermore, the heavy DLs would probably hurt the TTs on the weekends. But if I took more Ibuprofen, oh nevermind...

 

[swampy1970]

by the ides of March (March 15, 2009 for you non-Romans)

Since the Roman calendar differs significantly from the Gregorian, the Roman's "ides of March" doesn't fall on what we call the 15th of March. If the thought of recalculating when the equivalent ides of March is in the modern calendar gives you a headache, you could always take an Ibuprofen and actually have a valid use for it!

But I'm thinking that doing deadlifts would be as advantageous to my 'weight loss goal' and doing a fireman's lift on a 210lb drunken friend and running over to the pool and dumping him in...

 

[kopride]

I would like to get in on this just especially for the DL portion (350lbs would be the target at my 200lb current weight), but because I hypertrophy something terrible when lifting heavy weights (the lats, and mid and upper back especially), I must opt out. Additional upper body mass is something I need like some extra holes in my head. Why can't I be lucky enough to get cancer and drop some unnecessary muscle mass???? Some people have all the luck...

Anyway, mitochondrial dilution for this type II guy is a particularly counterproductive, and increasing the ftp is my primary goal this winter. I must admit though DLs are the ONLY lifts I do (no more than 225lbs for reps) in my garage. Furthermore, the heavy DLs would probably hurt the TTs on the weekends. But if I took more Ibuprofen, oh nevermind...

No, the Heavyweight Division is 300 lb DL irrespective of body weight. The original quest was to give us big guys some advantage over our smaller brethren. The lightweight division is designed to let the smaller guys participate. At 225 for reps, sounds like you are already there.

 

[Felt_Rider]

I'm kind of into this now especially after how good it felt to be under the squat bar again with some decent weight. Now when I get like Js and start wearing my construction boots for leg day you will know things are getting very serious.

 

[kopride]

Since the Roman calendar differs significantly from the Gregorian, the Roman's "ides of March" doesn't fall on what we call the 15th of March. If the thought of recalculating when the equivalent ides of March is in the modern calendar gives you a headache, you could always take an Ibuprofen and actually have a valid use for it!

But I'm thinking that doing deadlifts would be as advantageous to my 'weight loss goal' and doing a fireman's lift on a 210lb drunken friend and running over to the pool and dumping him in...

I have not contemplated the differences between the Gregorian and Julian calendars for quite some time, but you are correct. For clarity's sake, we should just go with 3/15/09.

There is no question that a little strength training does do wonders for weight control, particulalry if you are hitting those SSt intervals you will need to boost the FTP and you don't go crazy at the Bacchian celebrations (or hit the vomitorium at the appropriate time).

 

[kopride]

I'm kind of into this now especially after how good it felt to be under the squat bar again with some decent weight. Now when I get like Js and start wearing my construction boots for leg day you will know things are getting very serious.

My son and I were working with 250 on DL last night. By the third set, I was getting my form back and I was having fun. My son is going to blow right past me once he gets the movement down. He was basically stiff legging 250. If I had to geussimate my max, I would say I am close to 280 right now. If my son would spend 3 minutes working on improving his form and learning to drive initially off his heels and pushing his hips forward when the bar clears his knees, he would be pulling 300 already. He is literally, just picking it up.

Your leg presses are the real deal. If you can push that FTP up on the bike, you are going to run away with this thing. As for construction boots, my son was wearing his "timbs" last night. I had some old school wrestling shoes which i have had since the 80's.

BTW, Sunday was the day to be out this weekend.

 

[kopride]

Back and abs hurting a bit today. I figured I better work my abs hard to make sure I was balancing the back work and bought one of those little evil wheels. didn't feel them yesterday, but man today, it hurts. If you are looking for fun, follow your deadlifts with a few sets on an evil wheel. Tonite is a 2 x 20 night on the bike. As I said, for me, getting 300 ftp will be the bigger challenge. I have been chasing that number for quite some time. I have a feeling that the difference between the low 290s and a solid 300 for an hour is still fairly significant. I have put together some solid 20 minute intervals at 300, but that extra 40 minutes seems pretty daunting.

For those of us along the 95 corrider in the NE who didn't ride cut work to ride yesterday. shame. What a beautiful day, which is now followed by more dreary rain.

 

[Felt_Rider]

My legs were pretty sore today after training with weights in the morning and then low intensity on the KK last night. I did some stretching this morning that helped reduce some of the DOMS, but I need to get into a habit of stretching daily.

There used to be a few words that would get a person flamed on this forum a couple of years ago. If you mentioned "protein powder", "weights" or "stretching" you would get the ole virtual tar and feathers from the community, but things seemed to have changed a little since then.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...If you mentioned "protein powder", "weights" or "stretching" you would get the ole virtual tar and feathers from the community, but things seemed to have changed a little since then.

As long as you don't suggest they'll lead to improved cycling or bike racing performance I don't think anyone cares. Start telling folks to do squats and lunges to improve their hill climb TTs and you'll get some pushback

-Dave

 

[jsirabella]

Frenchgye,

Doing 220 which is two plates is definitely do-able for your body weight. You just need to work up to that weight and that would come from focusing on back and lower body exercises.

I would start with 5 x 5 set of deadlifts going with a weight where you finish your last set equal to 80% of your max. Start with a couple of quarters. Mix in two other back exercises which involve a pull up and pull down movement. I would continue to stick with the 5x5 for these three exercises and every week add 5 to 10 lbs. on the bar.

I would not focus too much in the lower half of the body as I suspect that your legs are actually more than big enough to handle this weight. The DL is actually a quite unique lift. While every lift is unique, the most important thing to look at when you do any lift is where is the weight in relationship to your body. Gravity is a *****! Every exercise will usually focus on one or two areas. With a DL you can decide to use more back or more hip but once you go heavy enough you need both.

To make sure to prevent injury do not go above 2X your body weight. Once you go above that you need more body weight. Once you go above that your chance for muscle strains and real injury increase big time. Also you can not gain mass without a calorie surplus! So right now what you are doing is getting better trained at the exercise (nerves and such). You will be surprised when you get good at the movement how heavy you can go but without a calorie surplus your body can not make more muscle, it is really that simple.

-js

Q: Who will pay my doctor's bills when my puny, type-I laden sticks snap from the excessive weight?

 

[jsirabella]

But I'm thinking that doing deadlifts would be as advantageous to my 'weight loss goal' ...

You will definitely be better served on the bike but in the end no calorie surplus = no mass. You can loose weight lifting weights...just takes more discipline on the nutrition side.

 

[kopride]

There used to be a few words that would get a person flamed on this forum a couple of years ago. If you mentioned "protein powder", "weights" or "stretching" you would get the ole virtual tar and feathers from the community, but things seemed to have changed a little since then.

Its nice to come out of the "closet," so to speak. That's why the slogan: we're strong, its wrong, but we like it" is so important to our movement. Dan Ryan is right though, we don't have any evidence to suggest that it helps one iota with cycling performance, but I am intrigued that Lance has always included some winter strength training in the mix.

Personally, I believe that the TdF is as much an endurance contest as anything else and that core strength helps LA and others that practice this heresy in simply finishing such a long and brutal event. From that respect, life is an endurance contest as well and I think that resistance training is important to overall health and fitness.

That's also why I chose March 15 for the cutoff. This way, folks that are serious about racing can do a little cross training in the winter months, but can get more cycling specific when the season starts.

 

[jsirabella]

The goal in the heavyweight division (175 pounds or over) is reaching both an FTP of 300 and a Deadlift of 300 by the ides of March (March 15, 2009 for you non-Romans).

Ok we have seem to created a bit of a monster here. I am not saying it is impossible but since I have not hit 280 watts for 20 minutes yet I do not think March 15th is very realistic for 300 watts. I did 285lbs today for three reps on the deadlifts but even if ahead of schedule I do the 300 lbs by early January. I doubt the 300 watts is going to happen by March...mainly cause I need the body weight and right now I just passed 181...need more time to get that many calories down to get closer to 200lbs. One focus at a time...

Will DL make me a better cyclist?

No but it will not make you a worse cyclist either. The only real issue with weight lifting and cycling is really that it takes time away from training on the bike.

-js

 

[jsirabella]

Improve, no, Hurt, no.

-js

As long as you don't suggest they'll lead to improved cycling or bike racing performance I don't think anyone cares. Start telling folks to do squats and lunges to improve their hill climb TTs and you'll get some pushback

-Dave

 

[kopride]

You will definitely be better served on the bike but in the end no calorie surplus = no mass. You can loose weight lifting weights...just takes more discipline on the nutrition side.

Take it from an ex wrestler that watched weight more than most. You can reduce actual mass and body weight much quicker with resistance training than with cardio. Guys that want to get big, have to eat almost obcene amounts of food to get bigger. Most folks that maintain or only slightly increase calorie intake lose weight.

 

[tonyzackery]

As long as you don't suggest they'll lead to improved cycling or bike racing performance I don't think anyone cares. Start telling folks to do squats and lunges to improve their hill climb TTs and you'll get some pushback

-Dave

Not telling anybody else to do them, but I will vouch for squats/deadlifts for improving my TT endeavors. I find long climbs will tend to breakdown the muscles in my lower back such that they will be sore after a long climbing day. The next day, doing several sets of moderate weight squats/deadlifts will eliminate that soreness. Furthermore, a relatively stronger lower back/core will not be a detriment to hill climb TT success and squats/deadlifts/lunges will strengthen your core. If no one does else them, no sweat off my neck...

 

[jsirabella]

Guys that want to get big, have to eat almost obcene amounts of food to get bigger. Most folks that maintain or only slightly increase calorie intake lose weight.

Agreed by the amount of calories I have been taking in now. It is very difficult as I am always eating. I do atleast 3,000-4,000 calories a day and weekend can go up to 5,000 cause of the cycling.

Clean food of that many calories actually hurts after a while to keep going....

-js