Winter Safety



M

Michael Hobby

Guest
Other members may be interested to see the following which
is the text of a letter I have written to the Department of
Education.

I would welcome any comments you may wish to make, as long
as they're not too rude!

"On Saturday 13th March, whilst walking in Snowdonia, I
noticed a large number of youngsters – predominantly girls –
following the same mountain path as myself. There were, I
believe, about twelve to fifteen teenagers with about three
or four young adults “leading” them. The fact that I had
seen them getting out of two mini buses adorned with the
name of a school led me to believe they were a school party.
Unfortunately I did not think to make a note of the name of
the school but I believe it may have been somewhere in the
Midlands – possibly Mansfield.

The mountain weather conditions on Saturday could, at best,
be described as “wintry” and were consistent with the
forecasts. From about 1200 feet there were increasingly
large patches of snow and ice and at 2000 feet I estimated
that the wind was gusting at up to 30 mph. There were
frequent showers of snow, sleet and hail.

I became concerned when I noticed that no members of the
party appeared to be adequately equipped for walking in such
conditions and have to say that their clothing appeared only
at best suitable for adverse summer conditions. Nobody
appeared to be carrying ice axes – an essential item in
winter – let alone trekking poles and some appeared not to
have gloves. At one point four teenagers became separated –
although not at that time dangerously so – from the main
party whilst they were cavorting in the snow.

Making light conversation with one of the adults, I was
given to understand that they were intending to ascend
Glyder Fach and Glyder Fawr, both of which are in excess of
3000 feet. Although my intended route did not take me in the
same direction I could see that conditions on the summits
were worse with much more snow, presumably more ice and the
added problem of cloud cover.

I have, myself, taken many groups of young people into the
hills and I would be that last person to want to discourage
such groups from discovering the enjoyment of hill walking
and mountaineering. However, in the light of some notable
tragedies in the past involving young people and their
“leaders” I believe, that as one who is experienced in this
field, I have a responsibility; without being intrusive;
towards ensuring that others act and conduct themselves with
equal responsibility.

As I mentioned earlier I was unable to identify the group
but I am writing to you to bring these circumstances to
light in the hope that, in doing so, this information can be
passed on and, hopefully, another tragedy averted."
 
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:23:03 -0000, "Michael Hobby"
<[email protected]> wrote in message
<[email protected]>:

>I became concerned when I noticed that no members of the
>party appeared to be adequately equipped for walking in
>such conditions and have to say that their clothing
>appeared only at best suitable for adverse summer
>conditions.

Agree wholeheartedly. There should be a big sign at each of
the common start points for Snowdon warning that this is,
for all its touristiness, a mountain on which people die.

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
Washington University
 
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:23:03 -0000, "Michael Hobby"
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> <[email protected]>:
>
> >I became concerned when I noticed that no members of the
> >party appeared
to
> >be adequately equipped for walking in such conditions and
> >have to say
that
> >their clothing appeared only at best suitable for
> >adverse summer
conditions.
>
> Agree wholeheartedly. There should be a big sign at
> each of the common start points for Snowdon warning
> that this is, for all its touristiness, a mountain on
> which people die.
>

Oh let them die. It's called Darwinism.
 
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004, Rifleman wrote:

> Oh let them die. It's called Darwinism.

But think of the litter they'd make.

--
Chris
 
I agree with everything you say. In fact you don't go far
enough. There should be manned guard posts at all access
points to the hills, where anybody wishing to venture
further would be quizzed as to their knowledge and
preparation for the prevailing (or potential) conditions. Of
course, anybody attempting to take a party of children onto
the hills would be immediately arrested and charged with
attempted manslaughter.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Agree wholeheartedly. There should be a big sign at
> each of the common start points for Snowdon warning
> that this is, for all its touristiness, a mountain on
> which people die.
>
" It's OK! it's "other people" that die!"
 
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:23:03 -0000, "Michael Hobby"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Other members may be interested to see the following which
>is the text of a letter I have written to the Department of
>Education.
>
>I would welcome any comments you may wish to make, as long
>as they're not too rude!

Conditions weren't that bad on Saturday. There was little
snow on Tryfan, although cloud cover could have been an
issue. An adult - pupil ratio of 1:3 or 1:4 seems more than
adequate so long as they were suitably qualified to lead a
party in winter conditions.

I frequently set off on an assent without wearing gloves, so
I don't see that as necessarily an issue so long as they had
some in their packs.

Tragedies involving school parties in the mountains are
blissfully rare, although that's no excuse for being
complacent. It is far more important that children are
allowed to take part in healthy activities than wrapped up
in cotton wool, and if that means that 5 children per decade
lose their lives on school trips, so be it. They are still a
great many times more likely to be killed by cars than
mountains. Indeed, a shopping trip in the High Street is far
more dangerous that a hike along High Street.
 
In message <[email protected]>,
Simon Caldwell <[email protected]> writes
>I agree with everything you say. In fact you don't go far
>enough. There should be manned guard posts at all access
>points to the hills, where anybody wishing to venture
>further would be quizzed as to their knowledge and
>preparation for the prevailing (or potential) conditions.
>Of course, anybody attempting to take a party of children
>onto the hills would be immediately arrested and charged
>with attempted manslaughter.
>
Why not just send them to Guantanemo Bay.

--
Martin Richardson
227/284 Munros - 20% to go
228/34 'Furths' & 439/439 Nuttalls - 0% to go
229/89 Donalds - 64% to go
230/1552 Marilyns - 73% to go /? Himalayans - 100% to go
 
[email protected] said...
> Other members may be interested to see the following which
> is the text of a letter I have written to the Department
> of Education.
>
> I would welcome any comments you may wish to make, as long
> as they're not too rude!
>
> "On Saturday 13th March, whilst walking in Snowdonia, I
> noticed a large number of youngsters – predominantly girls
> – following the same mountain path as myself.

The gender of the party is only relevant for identification
of the school or club. Don't forget they could have been
borrowing the minibuses and may not have had anything to do
with the school whose name appeared on the side.

> The mountain weather conditions on Saturday could, at
> best, be described as “wintry” and were consistent with
> the forecasts.

The forecasts are a relevant point.

> I became concerned when I noticed that no members of the
> party appeared to be adequately equipped for walking in
> such conditions and have to say that

But were they carrying anything? Clothing can be carried in
bags, don't forget. And I distinctly remember one particular
urw expedition whereat although we had very cold and windy
blizzard-like conditions at the top of our chosen hill I
nonetheless walked up the first bit of it in a short-sleeved
T-shirt because despite the snow I was hot.

> Making light conversation with one of the adults, I was
> given to understand that they were intending to ascend
> Glyder Fach and Glyder Fawr, both of which are in excess
> of 3000 feet. Although my intended route did not take me
> in the same direction I could see that conditions on the
> summits were worse with much more snow, presumably more
> ice and the added problem of cloud cover.

Out of interest, did you find out whether any of them had
done that route before?

> As I mentioned earlier I was unable to identify the group
> but I am writing to you to bring these circumstances to
> light in the hope that, in doing so, this information can
> be passed on and, hopefully, another tragedy averted."

Passed on to whom?
--
Fran If you need my email address please ask.
 
In message <[email protected]>,
Fran <[email protected]> writes
>But were they carrying anything? Clothing can be carried in
>bags, don't forget. And I distinctly remember one
>particular urw expedition whereat although we had very cold
>and windy blizzard-like conditions at the top of our chosen
>hill I nonetheless walked up the first bit of it in a short-
>sleeved T-shirt because despite the snow I was hot.
I was walking across Derry Cairngorm and Bheinn Mhanach on
Tuesday last week on deep snow and ice wearing a T-shirt -
and almost suffering from heatstroke. I wished I had taken
shorts and a sunhat with me. My bag was full of silly things
like furry hats, gloves, waterproofs and a scarf.

Mind you on Thursday I could barely stand up in the wind on
Carn Dearg.

But then, look, only 20% to go and I'll no longer need to
put up with these silly weather extremes. Hurrah!

--
Martin Richardson
227/284 Munros - 20% to go 34/34 'Furths' & 439/439 Nuttalls
- 0% to go
228/89 Donalds - 64% to go 0/? Himalayans - 100% to go
229/1552 Marilyns - 73% to go
 
[email protected] said...
> I agree with everything you say. In fact you don't go far
> enough. There should be manned guard posts at all access
> points to the hills, where anybody wishing to venture
> further would be quizzed as to their knowledge and
> preparation for the prevailing (or potential) conditions.

Oh, absolutely. And GOMLs should be rewarded for their
stance against irresposible use of hills and wide open
spaces.

> Of course, anybody attempting to take a party of children
> onto the hills would be immediately arrested and charged
> with attempted manslaughter.

Oh I say, that's coming it a bit too strong, dontcher know,
what? Attempted manslaughter? Surely anyone endangering the
lifes of the next generation of hooligans should be awarded
a medal for their efforts.
--
Fran If you need my email address please ask.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Fran <[email protected]> writes:
>
> Surely anyone endangering the lifes of the next
> generation of hooligans should be awarded a medal
> for their efforts.

Is there something you need to tell us?

--
Nick Kew
 
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:59:16 -0000, "Rifleman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]>
>wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:23:03 -0000, "Michael Hobby"
>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> <[email protected]>:
>>
>> >I became concerned when I noticed that no members of the
>> >party appeared
>to
>> >be adequately equipped for walking in such conditions
>> >and have to say
>that
>> >their clothing appeared only at best suitable for
>> >adverse summer
>conditions.
>>
>> Agree wholeheartedly. There should be a big sign at
>> each of the common start points for Snowdon warning
>> that this is, for all its touristiness, a mountain on
>> which people die.
>>
>
>
>Oh let them die. It's called Darwinism.

Darwinism on the part of the teachers is one thing, but
leading minors to their deaths is another. There's accidents
that can happen to anyone on a nice day and there is leading
people into dangerous situations. If the conditions were as
the OP says I'd have told the leaders they appeared to be
heading into deep sh*t both legally and morally.

>

--
79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot. The other
42% are made up later on. In Warwick - looking at flat
fields and that includes the castle.
 
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:22:36 +0000, Martin Richardson wrote:

>I was walking across Derry Cairngorm and Bheinn Mhanach on
>Tuesday last week on deep snow and ice wearing a T-shirt -
>and almost suffering from heatstroke. I wished I had taken
>shorts and a sunhat with me. My bag was full of silly
>things like furry hats, gloves, waterproofs and a scarf.

Derry Cairngorm *and* Bheinn Mhanach on the same day. That's
one hell of a walk!
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the
"Westminster Gasworks"
 
"Michael Hobby" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> The mountain weather conditions on Saturday could, at
> best, be described
as
> "wintry" and were consistent with the forecasts. From
> about 1200 feet
there
> were increasingly large patches of snow and ice and at
> 2000 feet I
estimated
> that the wind was gusting at up to 30 mph. There were
> frequent showers of snow, sleet and hail.
>
> Making light conversation with one of the adults, I was
> given to
understand
> that they were intending to ascend Glyder Fach and Glyder
> Fawr, both of which are in excess of 3000 feet. Although
> my intended route did not take
me
> in the same direction I could see that conditions on the
> summits were
worse
> with much more snow, presumably more ice and the added
> problem of cloud cover.

A report in the Western Mail of the rescue, the same day, of
2 apparently ill equipped walkers one of whom fell whilst
descending from Bwlch Coch on Crib y Ddysgl can be read at
http://tinyurl.com/3cg92 It would appear to confirm your
opinion of the weather conditions Mike.

I quote an extract:- "Chris Lloyd, Ogwen Valley Mountain
Rescue Organisation member and spokesman, said

""These were some of the worst weather conditions we've seen
this winter.

I've no idea why they were up there - nobody else stopped to
help them because there was nobody else up there as they had
all heeded the weather warnings.""

The team also criticised the pair's lack of preparation,
saying they were not even properly equipped for a summer
walk - the injured man was wearing light summer boots
and his friend wore trainers, while neither had a torch
or a whistle."

One can but wonder.

Gwyn
 
In message <[email protected]>,
Phil Cook <[email protected]> writes
>On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:22:36 +0000, Martin Richardson
>wrote:
>
>>I was walking across Derry Cairngorm and Bheinn Mhanach on
>>Tuesday last week on deep snow and ice wearing a T-shirt -
>>and almost suffering from heatstroke. I wished I had taken
>>shorts and a sunhat with me. My bag was full of silly
>>things like furry hats, gloves, waterproofs and a scarf.
>
>Derry Cairngorm *and* Bheinn Mhanach on the same day.
>That's one hell of a walk!

Sorry I meant Mheadhoin - it was late when I wrote that.

--
Martin Richardson
227/284 Munros - 20% to go 34/34 'Furths' & 439/439 Nuttalls
- 0% to go
228/89 Donalds - 64% to go 0/? Himalayans - 100% to go
229/1552 Marilyns - 73% to go