Winter Training: want to race Cat 1 next spring

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by needmoreair, Oct 19, 2013.

  1. needmoreair

    needmoreair New Member

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    I quit cycling about 7 years ago (Cat 1). Decided to start cycling again. Started running about 3 years ago and lost some weight and got pretty fit so I'm not totally coming off the couch.

    I've done a few group rides in the last two weeks and can still hang with a couple of 2s/3s and drop the rest, but it's October so not really the best time for a fitness gauge.

    Anyway, I've looked through my past training schedules but really don't feel comfortable trying to do what I did when I was 19-20. Winter generally consisted of mon/wed/fri of mod-hard 30 min gym sessions, longer sub threshold intervals on Tues, hill repeats on Thurs, 4-5 hour group rides on Sat and 4-5 hours easy on Sun.

    Frankly, even if I could handle such a load (I'm almost 30 and certainly couldn't start off with such a training load at this point) I don't want to.

    I have an SRM but haven't gotten motivated enough to try a FTP test. I've always abhorred time trials and the like and I know my fitness is very poor compared to what it has been so it saps the motivation even more. But at some point I'll start utilizing that some more.

    So, any ideas? Lots of miles? Steady state? Threshold? Hill repeats? Or just grind out a few weeks of hard group rides to get into some sort of shape from which I can actually start proper training (this was sorta my plan).
     
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  2. WillemJM

    WillemJM New Member

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    At 30, you may be able to attain better shape than when you were 19/20, the 7 years off will have a price tag though.

    It depends when you want to peak? I would establish a firmer base to allow proper recovery through periodization, before getting back into sub threshold intervals and hill repeats. By summer if this is when you wish to race, you will be tired with burn-out.
     
  3. SolarEnergy

    SolarEnergy New Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by needmoreair .
    I quit cycling about 7 years ago (Cat 1). Decided to start cycling again. Started running about 3 years ago and lost some weight and got pretty fit so I'm not totally coming off the couch.

    I've done a few group rides in the last two weeks and can still hang with a couple of 2s/3s and drop the rest, but it's October so not really the best time for a fitness gauge.

    Anyway, I've looked through my past training schedules but really don't feel comfortable trying to do what I did when I was 19-20. Winter generally consisted of mon/wed/fri of mod-hard 30 min gym sessions, longer sub threshold intervals on Tues, hill repeats on Thurs, 4-5 hour group rides on Sat and 4-5 hours easy on Sun.

    Frankly, even if I could handle such a load (I'm almost 30 and certainly couldn't start off with such a training load at this point) I don't want to.

    I have an SRM but haven't gotten motivated enough to try a FTP test. I've always abhorred time trials and the like and I know my fitness is very poor compared to what it has been so it saps the motivation even more. But at some point I'll start utilizing that some more.

    So, any ideas? Lots of miles? Steady state? Threshold? Hill repeats? Or just grind out a few weeks of hard group rides to get into some sort of shape from which I can actually start proper training (this was sorta my plan).


    Bahhh you know how things work at that level. Things haven't changed that much. Racing P12 is something you're either genetically capable or not.

    Given that you show up next spring not being overweight, and more importantly, healthy (no niggles), and given that you're consistent at training, you will more than likely find your way somewhere within the pack. Those who are the most consistent and maintain a sufficient CTL will generally do better at stage racing.

    I totally understand your "fear" of facing your good ol enemies. As a coach my solution to this is simple to "set up the duration" first. I mean if you want to prepare for time trialing over a duration of roughly 20min, just book 20min long intervals "without focusing too much" on the results at first. Just commit. Your genetic talent will kick in at some point and you'll end up nailing them real hard after a while.

    Time trialing and climbing are essential parts of being happy with how you experience your P12 events. Therefore I'd propose that you start setting up for this during the winter. However that said, make no mistake. The bulk of your prep to race at that level in 2014 (assuming that you race during months of May-Sept) will be in late Feb early March. A training camp of any sort would greatly help kicking in the season.

    A wizard once told me that intense commitment to sports at some point in one's life leaves indelible training footprint, one that never really disappears. This means that whilst it may have been a hell of a struggle to "get there" in the past, you could turn out being surprised by how easy it is to get back to serious business.

    Finally, bare in mind that "Success = Results - Expectations". Therefore set your expectations for your first season. Could be to simply feel good sticking with the pack for the first stages and see if you can try something stupid at the last stage of most races. Whatever your goal is, set it relatively low for your first season. From there, you'll have something to build upon for the seasons to come. You're still very young. I wish you a nice come back!
     
  4. needmoreair

    needmoreair New Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by WillemJM .
    At 30, you may be able to attain better shape than when you were 19/20, the 7 years off will have a price tag though.

    It depends when you want to peak? I would establish a firmer base to allow proper recovery through periodization, before getting back into sub threshold intervals and hill repeats. By summer if this is when you wish to race, you will be tired with burn-out.


    Yeah, I hope so. I'm 8 lbs lighter already and still have a few lbs of fat to lose. 30s the new 20 and all. Maybe.

    I'm not worried too much about peaking. Races start in earnest in April and carry on through Sept. I'll probably take a mini break in July or August.

    The big thing this go around, I think, will be the quality and quantity aspects. I have no desire to slog through 20-25 hour weeks anymore, so will try to keep things in the 12-16 hr/week range, which I imagine will entail more specific rides than just toodling around for 5-6 hours like I used to do. Never was sure how effective that was.

    Thanks for the reply.
     
  5. needmoreair

    needmoreair New Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by SolarEnergy .

    Bahhh you know how things work at that level. Things haven't changed that much. Racing P12 is something you're either genetically capable or not.

    Given that you show up next spring not being overweight, and more importantly, healthy (no niggles), and given that you're consistent at training, you will more than likely find your way somewhere within the pack. Those who are the most consistent and maintain a sufficient CTL will generally do better at stage racing.

    I totally understand your "fear" of facing your good ol enemies. As a coach my solution to this is simple to "set up the duration" first. I mean if you want to prepare for time trialing over a duration of roughly 20min, just book 20min long intervals "without focusing too much" on the results at first. Just commit. Your genetic talent will kick in at some point and you'll end up nailing them real hard after a while.

    Time trialing and climbing are essential parts of being happy with how you experience your P12 events. Therefore I'd propose that you start setting up for this during the winter. However that said, make no mistake. The bulk of your prep to race at that level in 2014 (assuming that you race during months of May-Sept) will be in late Feb early March. A training camp of any sort would greatly help kicking in the season.

    A wizard once told me that intense commitment to sports at some point in one's life leaves indelible training footprint, one that never really disappears. This means that whilst it may have been a hell of a struggle to "get there" in the past, you could turn out being surprised by how easy it is to get back to serious business.

    Finally, bare in mind that "Success = Results - Expectations". Therefore set your expectations for your first season. Could be to simply feel good sticking with the pack for the first stages and see if you can try something stupid at the last stage of most races. Whatever your goal is, set it relatively low for your first season. From there, you'll have something to build upon for the seasons to come. You're still very young. I wish you a nice come back!



    Thanks a lot for all the details. Good info.

    I just set up WKO and the PMC. Obviously this will be super variable and highly individual, but do you have any rough guidelines for appropriate CTLs? I won't be doing stage racing and will probably only have one road race over 100 miles. The majority of my races will be crits and shorter 70-80ish mile road races.

    It does seem to be coming back quickly. Of course, I've been running the last few years so have managed to lose some weight and keep fairly fit, just lacking some specific strength I guess.

    Expectations this go around are just to have fun. No more crazy long road trips to big races just to pull a mid pack finish and spend 10 hours driving back questioning everything I've ever done, just the local scene with some friends. No pressure, just fun.

    Thanks again for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.
     
  6. SolarEnergy

    SolarEnergy New Member

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    Quote: Expectations this go around are just to have fun. No more crazy long road trips to big races just to pull a mid pack finish and spend 10 hours driving back questioning everything I've ever done, just the local scene with some friends.

    Yeah right ;-) (teasing you)

    TBH, I don't have much experience with cyclists, especially at that level. But I like the magic number of 100tss/d. I'm really pulling this off my a though. That said, it kind of perfectly fits a 12-15hours /week investment.

    Now logically, especially assuming your age, the correct answer to this would be: As little as possible whilst still allowing you to meet your targets. The principle being that if you can do well with 85tss/d in 2014, and aim for better results in the following years, you'll have this option of adding more CTL (whilst legitimately expecting easy gains resulting from this increase). When you rode maintaining 130tss/d for 2 straight years, what do you do next to continue improving?

    You may have a revenge to take though (this is what I feel from what you write). If so, with the new tools (Coggan's work, Allen's WKO, new knowledge), you could be reaching new level of performance. Anyway.... In any cases, resist overly focusing on what should the "ideal session" be, and focus rather on the longer term direction (PMC).

    Try to achieve the best possible FTP given your time/ctl investment. Crits are fun, but much safer when you can stick to the front of the pack. And for that you first need to develop a solid FTP. You may consider sticking to the recognized way of managing your FTP (deadly sins I think it's called). My preferred way remains 60min Time Trial, for a bunch of reasons (given you can find a suitable course though). The power that you can *routinely* generate during those 2x20min intervals session is also a fair indicator (I much prefer this to the 95% of a single 20min effort, which, I suspect, is giving a bunch of riders the impression that their FTP is higher than what it truly is).

    If you train mostly indoor during winter, then you may want to study and try the "threshold" micro-intervals approach. It's a fun way to kill some time (and kill yourself too lol). And it's perfectly appropriate for someone wanting to do well in crit races later in the season. Given your goals and passed record, I'd say that you don't need to go above 10hr of training during the winter. Between 7-10hr. Make the wife happy, she may cut more slack when it becomes really appropriate to upset her by either being absent or too tired later in the season :)
     
  7. needmoreair

    needmoreair New Member

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    Thanks again for so much info. Lots of good stuff to take in and consider.

    My FTP is already on the rise if I go off NP. I managed a ~270 average with 301 NP on a hard, solo hilly ride earlier this week, so I was fairly surprised and happy about that. Hopefully I can get that up a good chunk more and lose another 6-7 lbs to get to 150 and I should be alright. It's a long winter. I'd always use Oct as a transition period and start the ramp up in November, so I think the timing is good.

    I'll do some reading on those "sins" and more wko stuff and try searching out some suitable courses for these threshold efforts. I hate trainer rides even more than tt efforts, so will be doing everything outside unless weather forces me otherwise. I'll try to get an idea of what 85-100 tss/day is and start feeling that out.

    Thanks again for the info. Gave me quite a good direction to start researching more.
     
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  8. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    60-90 minute rides may not get you to Cat1.
     
  9. needmoreair

    needmoreair New Member

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    I'm already a Cat 1. Technically.
     
  10. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    You did say you want to race Cat1. That is different than having a card proclaiming you are a Cat1.

    If you want to be a Cat1 at races, you need to be a lot better than "I've done a few group rides in the last two weeks and can still hang with a couple of 2s/3s and drop the rest ..." You should be spitting all the Cat2s out the back.

    "4-5 hour group rides on Sat and 4-5 hours easy on Sun." Those appear to be 250-300TSS days. If they got you to Cat1, they are a good way to get you back.

    ---

    You got to Cat1 once. You know a lot more about your body's reaction to training than the people here do.
     
  11. needmoreair

    needmoreair New Member

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    I said I was a Cat 1 in my OP.

    I should be spitting all the Cat 2s out the back in Oct after two weeks of riding? Alright.
     
  12. needmoreair

    needmoreair New Member

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    As an aside, do you seriously buy into that?

    That makes absolutely no sense at all. Do you never go over 25 mph? Never sprint? Never hit a downhill? Unless you're a pro you'll never need anything over a 50/14? Yikes.
     
  13. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    I am old, but I can remember when the big dog was a 54/13. 54/13 at 120rpm is 38mph. When you can hold that for a couple miles alone on the flat, you might want to consider a bigger gear.

    I am not strong anymore, but I can push my 50/15 (I am using a 15-27) fast enough.

    There are a lot of guys out there with way more gear than they can handle.

    ---

    I don't ride over 25mph much anymore. I just don't need to. I don't get paid to.

    ---

    In reference to your previous post. You keep insisting that your cat1 card makes you a cat1. I have a different criteria.
     
  14. WillemJM

    WillemJM New Member

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    Sigh, those were the days, 6 gears in a cassette, shifters on the down tube and we could climb anything on a 18/42.

    Try and get back to 25mph, if anything else it scares the hell out of the young-ones.
     
  15. smaryka

    smaryka Member

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    Don't feed the troll...
     
  16. maxroadrash

    maxroadrash New Member

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    Please. And for Godsake stop quoting him!
     
  17. needmoreair

    needmoreair New Member

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    Oye, this guy.
     
  18. needmoreair

    needmoreair New Member

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    Well, things seem to be going well enough. Got in almost 11 hours last week and about 729 TSS on 6 days of riding. Did a 65 miler on Sat with a group with some hard pushes and it wasn't too tough. Actually went a lot better than a group ride two weeks before had gone.

    I think 100 a day is a decent number to hit, but I'll be trying for a little more than that I think. I did a harder/up-tempo 2:10 ride yesterday and was at 155. I felt that one for sure, but I'd already ran an up tempo 5 miler 3 hours earlier so I'm sure that was a factor.

    Think I'll shoot for 800 a week at the moment and see how I get on. I'm sure once I start getting in 1-2x 3-4 hour rides a week it'll be a bit easier.
     
  19. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    I hope you get where you are going.
     
  20. fluro2au

    fluro2au New Member

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    Nice work, I follow a similar format

    I tend to aim for 800-900 consistent weeks. I ride Monday to Saturday. If can get in 2 mid week rides that are over 150, I'm happy, the other are around 800-100, but with lots of intensity at the moment and then on the weekend I usually do a hard longer ride 3-4hr and finish off with a crit (250-300). Once a month I'll crack open a long ride (5-7hrs) just to keep shocking the body and keep it guessing.

    Keep an eye on TSB, once I get down below -40, things start getting edgy in terms of carrying too much fatigue into sessions. I'll hold it down there for a week or two then bring myself back up with a couple of easy days. Also watch your ATL line, when you are building keep it consistently above your CTL line, if it starts dropping and getting close to your CTL line too often, you are over recovering. I tested my CP20 this Monday and it came in at 373watts @ 76kg. It's close to where I want it before I start working on race specifics

    I currently have my 5min, and 20min sitting in Cat 1. That is how I base build and then I'll spread my wings and work on my CP60, CP5s and CP1min as the season approaches.

    Keep us posted, it's a good thread.

    Paul
     
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