Winter Training

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by Sarah23, Apr 26, 2006.

  1. Sarah23

    Sarah23 New Member

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    I have just been churning through the (very very long) sticky thread 'gyming to improve power' at the top. I don't want to rehash any of that here, I do want to see if I am on the right track however.

    I only started cycling this year, and want to lose 8kg by spring (Aug/Sept) so I am carrying less weight on my bike. Winter is rather mild over hear so riding is an option, however it does get a bit dark and riding at night/pre-dawn takes away from the enjoyment for me.

    1. How do I determine a goal weight, I have picked 8kg because it is the bottom of the BMI bracket for my height (female - 165cm).

    2. I am hitting the gym over winter. This is primarily as a weightloss mechanism - 7hours of cardio group classes per week. They motivate me, it is warm, it works.

    3. I intend to include one 'weights' session in my workout, primarily focused on core stability. I have no desire to 'build muscle', been there, done that, lat pulldowns are boring ;)... I just want to work with a 'fitball' and some lightweights, improve my balance etc.

    4. Still doing some rides during the week, 2 group rides (I am still at a level where I work so much harder on a group ride to keep up with the group), 2 solo training rides (building up from 20km which includes several hills).

    5. Trying to watch what I eat in order to lose just 1kg per week (I am told that this is the correct weekly weight loss goal). How to I work this out? I am so hungry after a good two hour cardio workout that I could eat anything. I want don't want to overeat, I also don't want to undereat. I have tried using the Harris-Benedict formula for daily energy consumption, however it just seems too little.

    I am really interested in what Ric Stern has been saying. He really seems to imply (If I am reading the thread correctly, and admittedly I am only halfway through) that training really only needs to involve lots and lots of miles on the bike. No other workouts, no cross-training etc. (NB On that note, I do realise I could get all my cardio from the bike rather then the gym, this is a choice made for motivational reasons-- among other things it is warm in the gym! It is only incorporated as part of a 12week program, after that I intend to drop it and transfer that time to the bike.)

    Any thoughts? Am I on the right track?
    Regard,
    Sarah.
     
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  2. mikesbytes

    mikesbytes New Member

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    Hi Sarah

    I am a cross trainer and may be of assistance.

    There are lots of solutions and you have clearly put a lot of good thought and are putting in some real effort to meet those goals. Some of the advise you have requested will be relevant to you and some not. You may even disagree with some of the thing's myself and others write. There is no single solution, its about finding a solution you like.

    A couple of questions;
    1. What city are you in? Mild winters, but warmer in the gym.
    2. What cardio group classes do you do? Spin, pump, combat, boxing?
    3. By loosing 8Kg, is that 8Kg of fat, or 10Kg of fat with 2Kg muscle gain, or 6Kg of fat and 2Kg muscle loss?

    8Kg weight loss may not necessarily give you as much extra speed as you would think, because you body will be weaker and you will have less reserves. For cycling power to weight ratio is more relevant that straight weight. This is quite different to other sports such as running (I'm an ex runner), where you would typically have 5 - 10 less Kg.

    BMI is not a particuly good figure for sporty girls and boys as it has made assumptions about how much muscle you have. The bottom end of the BMI may mean that you are running below minimum fat levels because your muscles are heaver than the BMI average. While its nice to know how much you weigh, a better measure is the tape measure and the mirror. And who has the best figure a 50kg dieter or a 60kg sporty? and whos going to get to the finish line first?

    Understand the hunger thing quite well, back in 2000, I went thru that and I was continually hungry and actually putting on weight at the same time. The problem was that I wasn't eating enough protein. My body screamed for protein and I fed it carbs, so the extra carbs got stored as fat. Recommend you try increasing your protein, this will also help to repair your muscles and shorten your recovery times. While you are loosing that weight, cut down considerably on the carb intake and once you have reached your goal, keep to a low level of carbs at night, as the body has no need for them and will simply store them as fat.

    Motivation is probably the most important thing and you are being motivated. Core stability is great, bike riding does pretty much nothing for that area and everything leads from having a good core.

    Have you got a link to what Ric Stern is saying, I'm interested in reading it.
     
  3. Sarah23

    Sarah23 New Member

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    All input is very welcome.


    I would rather not say, but I live in Australia if that helps.

    ...all of them. My gym runs two cardio sessions per evening most night. (I skip the 'dance' cardio class, and the 'pilates/yoga' classes are good for stratching/relaxation/balance but are not cardio), so pump x 2, attack x 2, step x 1, combat x 1. I would love to do a spinning class, and I know the gym is thinking about running them, so I am pushing for them.

    Yes Good question. I certainly am not wanting muscle loss. You are also right about the tape measure and mirror (also good is putting on clothes).

    I am not overweight, but I can see alot of fat on my thighs etc, it is quite visible, just sitting there doing nothing. I know I will ride faster without that extra weight.

    I picked that figure (8kgs) out of the air, and I agree the BMI is not the best measure at all. I use the kilgorams as a measure because it is easy to jump on the scales every morning before breakfast and get an idea of how you are travelling over the course of a month (ignoring daily fluctuations etc), in reality the closer I get to my goal there is every chance it will change....I mean I may get to 5kg and think this is perfect.


    What is a good fat level?


    That is interesting. I got heavily involved in nutrition several years ago, so I am a healthy eater compared to the 'average joe' (only drink water, always eat wholemeal, olive oil, lots of veges etc). I have been trying out a variety of different foods for riding (energy drinks/bars/gels) I kept seeing the protein bars and wrote them off. However my focus has been mostly on carbs and kilojoules, I kind of ignored Protein. How do I know what levels I should be consuming? Perhaps a 'protien bar' would be good recovery after a gym session?

    I was reading through the first 8 pages of the sticking thread in this 'cycle training' forum. There is a lot of argument, but I kind of skipped all of that and just read his posts where he responds to various people (the entire thread is 24 pages long, I didn't read it all :))
     
  4. mikesbytes

    mikesbytes New Member

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    I was just curious about the city, I live in Sydney and it can on occassions be quite cold riding in the morning. Warmer than Auckland or Hobart. Colder than Brissie.

    How much fat is the correct amount. I have no idea for girls. Something for you to research. For boys, it is no big deal to go under the minimum, whatever that is.

    I do some of the les mills stuff too. I was interested in getting the metrics on calories burned. Saw them about 2 years ago, so the figures exist, just don't know where to find them.

    A sudden loss of motivation is, for many the killer that stopped them getting to their goals. There are benifits in using weight as a measure of success, as you can monitor your progress. I find that there is about a 1kg variation in my weight, depending on when and what I have been doing when I weigh myself, the major reason been water consumption and loss.

    The association between recovery and protein is one that I have experienced. Instead of taking 48hours for my muscles to recover, I had a turnaround of 24hours from the same class. You probably don't need those energy drinks/bars/whatever for the gym as the classes only last for an hour. On the bike is a different matter, as you ride for longer. On my bike rides, I perfer to eat a banana as it has a combo of quick sugars and slow sugars. When I forget to get one, I'll raid the cuboard for what ever, usually some bread, had to take weetbix one day and it stuck to the teeth. I should get some of those energy bars to keep as spares, any particular you can recommend?

    True the yoga aint going to burn fat, but what it does do is condition the mind, teaches you to focus away from the pain and towards the goals. Seems that everything offers something, pity the day only has 24 hours.
     
  5. Sarah23

    Sarah23 New Member

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    Motivation has always been the problem for me too. I have drawn up a huge 12 week timetable with my partner, we are doing this together which is fun. It was his idea whihc takes the motivational burden partially off me.

    I keep looking at the first four weeks as being the medium term goal. If I get through the first four weeks then I think the difference (weight/clothing/tape measure) will spur me on for another four weeks. The final four weeks is really about tapering back into bike riding without losing momentum. In the long run I can't sustain this amount of cardio/riding in my week, like many people, I am too busy. So I need to taper my exercise and eating back without putting the weight back on by overeating without exercising.

    I did read somewhere that if you can maintain a weight for 12 months, then you body will settle in to this weight and self-regulate it. Which I guess also means that it would be very easy to bounce back up the extra 5kg within the first year.

    Yes, re the body balance classes...we are doing two of those per week. It is not cardio, but it is relaxing and teaches balance.

    I have been trying out heaps of different foods (fruit and nut bars from 'go natural', cape seed rolls from 'bakers delight', bananas, apples, etc)
    I went on my first big ride, I did take a sports drink (Endura) and also some of the above snacks, but halfway through the right I was exhausted and found the last 20km so hard (and slow). I didn't drink enough of the Endura, though I did eat a bit. Typical rookie mistake I imagine. After that I made myself get used to the taste of Endura, and I also went to my healthfood shop and Coles chasin proper performance bars.

    I tried Endura Protein bar, but didn't like the taste, I have settled on 'powerbar' (has the AIS logo on it) sold at Coles. It tastes a bit like a 'space food stick', but it did the job on my last big ride, and is cheaper then the endura bars ($3 vs $5). I ate two of those plus a bottle of Endura...I could have gone with a banana or two, and a couple of cape seed rolls (try them, they are awesome, no need for butter as they are full of fruit and nuts, they do not dry your mouth out at all). I try to eat as natural as possible (its cheaper plus seems better), but if it works then I am not going to argue, I am just going to eat it.
     
  6. Sarah23

    Sarah23 New Member

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    Top female runners tend to have 12-20% body fat compared to 5-10% for their male counterparts, while the figure for elite female cyclists is 18-25% and 10-15% for elite males.

    Looks good enough to use as a guide...If my fat gets below 18% I will give up cycling and start running....:p Anyway I am over 25% at the moment, so I have some work to do.
     
  7. dm69

    dm69 New Member

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    As a male I have a very low BMI 5ft11 and 56kg's...who cares? dont worry about that S#1T;) . Just lose as much weight as you feel comfortable and you feel you still have sufficient power on the bike. By the way I crammed in 670km's last week, I live in south-east NSW. Back to school next week but I still reckon 600km's is possible...good lights, good winter gear and determination gets you through all weather...except hail :rolleyes: :p .

    Time on the bike helps you ride faster, then if you still have spare time on top of that do some weights, swimming and stretching that is all...DONT YOU DARE START RUNNING:mad: :p ...its evil, takes way too long to recover!
     
  8. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    see a qualified person, such as a sports scientist, who can measure either measure the sum of various skinfolds, or offers other (valid) measures such as underwater weighing or DEXA x-rays. Some bio electrical impedance analysis (BIA) units also offer accurate measures of body fat%. If someone tries to measure your skinfolds with a set of plastic calipers, leave.

    you want the person to be using something like this http://www.assist.co.uk/harpenden/HPSection1.htm


    if that works for you, then that's excellent. Keep up the great work
    nothing wrong with that either. Just don't expect it to improve your cycling.

    0.5 to 1 kg/week is what you should aim for.

    What you could do, to estimate your dietary requirements, is ascertain an approximate measure of your energy expenditure (while exercising), and keep a food diary (and make an estimate of your energy input - or get a nutritionist to do this for you). if the exercise and eating is a good snapshot of your normal daily routines, and you are e.g., maintaining your weight then you know what your energy requirement is for your energy expenditure. What you can then do is adjust these figures so that you can maximise weight loss.

    1 lb of fat (~0.5 kg) is equal to 3500 Kcal (~14600 Kj) so to lose that 0.5 kg you need a daily deficit of 500 Kcal. This can be from increasing your exercise load, reducing your diet, or best option a mix of both.

    to get good at riding your bike, you only need to ride your bike. However, while riding your bike you need a mix of different intensities from easy recovery to endurance, to sustained intensity, maximal intensity, and (possibly) harder.

    Getting good, doesn't necessarily mean lots of hours on the bike.

    If you race bikes or are race fit, then biking is by far and away the best option for improving your biking. If on the other hand you don't race and aren't fit enough to race then any exercise is good, and will likely improve your fitness (even though bike training will increase you at a faster rate).

    Ric
     
  9. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    storing excess carbs as fat is quite difficult. Overeating (in general, rather than any particular macronutrient) causes excess adipose tissue to be stored.

    It's highly unlikely in most developed countries that you'd undereat in the protein stakes. Even vegetarians, who are typically thought of as not eating a lot of protein can still over eat protein.

    Protein requirements are actually very low, and can range from < 1g per kg body mass per day to up to 2 g per kg body mass per day for the heaviest of sport workloads (i.e., Tour de France). You'd likely have to be on a very strange diet or have grossly cut down your energy intake to not meet these levels.

    ACSM advice is to not take supplemental protein unless you are on a strict weight reduction programme.


    recovery is going to be related to carbohydrate intake not protein, which is why after exhaustive exercise, it's recommended you consume ~1.5 g of carb per kg body mass within say 30-mins

    eating late in the evening does not cause excess weight to be gained. overeating does.

    what did you want to know?

    Ric
     
  10. mikesbytes

    mikesbytes New Member

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    Yes I've noticed that a lot of cyclists hate running. Don't know why but many of the riders in the club I'm with seem to look negatively on me running. I use to train with a triathelete lady who's weight was optimum for running but was under for cycling. She use to tell me that her hubbie, who is a cyclist was always on at her about being under weight. Guess there's no such thing as a one body fits all.

    Anything new that you do will take a while to recover from until your body has adapted to it. Cyclists will have problems with particular muscles that they don't usually use, if they go for a run. As your body adapts to cycling, that last 20k will turn from pain to a breeze.

    My body is built more for strength than speed, speed is something that I improve in over winter. I'm 181cm (5ft11in) and 76 kilos, but I cary a bit more muscle than most guys. I don't carry a lot of fat. Your thread has got me curious, wonder how I can get my fat levels measured?

    Great to see your partner is behind you, that is going to help heaps, particually with motivation. Many partners will get in the way of self improvement, as if the partner improves, they will have to look at making the improvements too. However even a pair of sporties can have fitness conflict, get 2 experts together and you will have 3 different opinions.
     
  11. Sarah23

    Sarah23 New Member

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    Thanks for the tip. I am actually going to see the in-house trainer (at the gym) tomorrow morning. I will ask her about it good measurements.

    I am actually really interested in seeing if I can find out about measuring VO2 max levels. I know it will be pretty crap at the moment, but I find it motivating to have a before shot and then to 'aim' for something.

    Actually I am a pretty lazy person, hence the need for aerobic 'classes' to motivate to reach an aerobic threshold. I tend to do activites that require little exertion over greater distances. Cycling lends itself to this, I can go for a 20km ride, feel like I have done a good hours excersise and not even break a sweat...very easy to be fooled!
    I am hoping after the ten weeks I will be able to focus on things like interval training and varied intensities.

    By the way, thanks for you input Ric



    On a sidenote, has anyone any experience with tools like this?:
    http://www.powerbreathe.com/homep.html
     
  12. Sarah23

    Sarah23 New Member

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    ...Never fear, been there done that.:eek: I used to run, I loved long distances etc. I ran a half-marathon, and the City-to-Surf (Sydney), it was heaps of fun. Then my partner wanted to take up cycling, and I joined him. WOW, cycling is so much better, not only can you sit and just relax while you go down hills, you also get places so much faster. An hour ride can take me half way across the city and back...and hour run is barely around the block!!
     
  13. mikesbytes

    mikesbytes New Member

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    Hi Sarah, how did you go with beating the hunger?
     
  14. MY02_STi

    MY02_STi New Member

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    Try the Endura Gels (take one each hour) instead of the protein bar during your rides. Also, try taking 1 bottle of Endura and 1 bottle of Endura Optimiser (use this after about 1 and a half hours and the alternate between the Endura and the Optimiser) :)

    This works very well for me (being gluten intolerant I cannot use any of the popular energy bars) as Endura is gluten free. The above regime recently was all I needed (and used) during a 200 km group training ride and still felt 'good' at the end.

    Hope this helps :D
     
  15. Sarah23

    Sarah23 New Member

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    Thanks for the tip. I bought a few of those gels (citrus and vanilla...eek) from the aforementioned healthfood shop. I have yet to try them.

    I am fairly happy with what I have settled on:
    1 bottle endura, bottle water, Sports Bars (AIS from coles), Cape seed roll (Baker's delight), bananas.

    My partner is still working out what suits him, but he is yet to try the gels either. I will get his opinion, but they both sound so gross....But then the first time I tried Endura I had to force it down...I kept saying to myself "it is just like medicine, you have to take it", now I drink it quite easily while riding.

    What is the optimser stuff for? I read the website, but still can't see the difference between it and just plain endura sports drink.
     
  16. mikesbytes

    mikesbytes New Member

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    Be careful of using suppliments as you current goal is to loose weight. Weight loose is pretty much a case of burning more calories and you consume. These suppliments contain calories that are very useful in many situations, but not your current.
     
  17. MY02_STi

    MY02_STi New Member

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    Optimizer is a carbohydrate/protein recovery mix that also works extremely well as a fuel/energy source for activities over 2 hours duration :)
     
  18. Sarah23

    Sarah23 New Member

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    Thanks. Calories are actually very useful in general....they keep us alive :p. The concept is pretty simple...burn more then you consume. Energy bars and sports drinks aren't magic sources, the kilojoule content is right there on the label. The difference is that during a 2 hour long ride you need something that works. Even on shorter rides (60 - 90 minutes) I need a boost (hence the sports drink).

    The important part is that at the end of the day you eat less than you consume...sporting supplement or not.
     
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