With reference to cycle lanes. etc - report well worth reading, c/o Warrington CC

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Pyromancer, Mar 8, 2006.

  1. Pyromancer

    Pyromancer Guest

    Attempting to find the archive of farcilities of the month, I wandered
    round the WCC website, and stumbled upon this:

    http://www.17beechroad.freeserve.co.uk/WarringtonCycleCampaign/report/Hil
    den.pdf

    Now *that* sounds like a good plan. How on earth do we get UK towns and
    cities to follow suit though? Of is it just one of those cultural
    differences between us and the mainlanders that we'll never persuade our
    population to act thus?

    --
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  2. Rich

    Rich Guest

    > Attempting to find the archive of farcilities of the month, I wandered
    > round the WCC website, and stumbled upon this:
    >
    > http://www.17beechroad.freeserve.co.uk/WarringtonCycleCampaign/report/Hil
    > den.pdf
    >
    > Now *that* sounds like a good plan. How on earth do we get UK towns and
    > cities to follow suit though?


    You're right, it does look pretty good. But it is completely destroyed for
    anyone who knows anything about promoting and providing for cyclists by
    being liberally sprinkled with pictures of cyclists with helmets.
     
  3. Rich wrote:
    > > Attempting to find the archive of farcilities of the month, I wandered
    > > round the WCC website, and stumbled upon this:
    > >
    > > http://www.17beechroad.freeserve.co.uk/WarringtonCycleCampaign/report/Hil
    > > den.pdf
    > >
    > > Now *that* sounds like a good plan. How on earth do we get UK towns and
    > > cities to follow suit though?

    >
    > You're right, it does look pretty good. But it is completely destroyed for
    > anyone who knows anything about promoting and providing for cyclists by
    > being liberally sprinkled with pictures of cyclists with helmets.


    I thought this quote was interesting:

    "Our off road facilities are useful, but our major objective is to get
    cyclists onto the roads. Here they are safer and have a calming effect
    on vehicle speeds. most cycle accidents occur on off-road routes and
    result from car owners reversing into cyclists when coming out of their
    drives"

    and

    "Hilden has spent less and 120,000 Euros in [the] whole of the last 10
    years on cycle specific facilities".

    And yet they've managed to get cycle use up to 24%

    Tim.
     
  4. Pyromancer

    Pyromancer Guest

    [email protected] wrote:

    > I thought this quote was interesting:
    >
    > "Our off road facilities are useful, but our major objective is to get
    > cyclists onto the roads. Here they are safer and have a calming effect
    > on vehicle speeds. most cycle accidents occur on off-road routes and
    > result from car owners reversing into cyclists when coming out of their
    > drives"
    >
    > and
    >
    > "Hilden has spent less and 120,000 Euros in [the] whole of the last 10
    > years on cycle specific facilities".
    >
    > And yet they've managed to get cycle use up to 24%


    There is one overwhelming factor in this, it seems - they restricted
    motor traffic to 30kph (18.5mph). If we did that in any town here, and
    enforced it, and didn't manage to provoke mass rioting in the process,
    we could do the same thing.
     
  5. squeaker

    squeaker Guest

    Rich wrote:
    > > But it is completely destroyed for

    > anyone who knows anything about promoting and providing for cyclists by
    > being liberally sprinkled with pictures of cyclists with helmets.


    'Completely destroyed' !?! Get a life - it's just a little logo - no
    wonder we're not getting anywhere :(
     
  6. Rich

    Rich Guest

    "squeaker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Rich wrote:
    >> > But it is completely destroyed for

    >> anyone who knows anything about promoting and providing for cyclists by
    >> being liberally sprinkled with pictures of cyclists with helmets.

    >
    > 'Completely destroyed' !?! Get a life - it's just a little logo - no
    > wonder we're not getting anywhere :(


    I beg to differ. It's the big pic on the cover and it's on every page, and
    it sends the insidious message that cycling is dangerous.

    If it's just a little logo, why couldn't they use a sensible one?

    Yes, it's no wonder we're not getting anywhere when even cyclists are
    willing to show cycling as being so dangerous that you have to wear special
    "safety" gear, the only effect of which is to put people off cycling.

    >
     
  7. Simon Geller

    Simon Geller Guest

    Rich wrote:
    > "s
    > Yes, it's no wonder we're not getting anywhere when even cyclists are
    > willing to show cycling as being so dangerous that you have to wear special
    > "safety" gear, the only effect of which is to put people off cycling.



    If you know anything about the Warrington Cycle campaign you'd know that
    they are as aware of the helmets issues as anyone. Photos, drawings etc
    tend to reflect reality - some cyclists wear helmets, some don't. In
    terms of what's been achieved in Hilden its a side issue.

    The problem I have with the German approach to road safety is that they
    have consistently refused to impose speed limits on autobahns, in
    defiance of EU policy. This enables their auto industry to produce ever
    faster vehicles with which the rest of the world has to compete. Thus,
    they subject the rest of us to the tyranny of speed whilst ensuring that
    their own communities are protected.

    Simon
     
  8. > Thus,
    > they subject the rest of us to the tyranny of speed whilst ensuring that
    > their own communities are protected.


    Protected by what? The cars are only allowed to do go at silly speeds in
    Germany - seems like we're protected and they're not.
     
  9. Pyromancer

    Pyromancer Guest

    Simon Geller wrote:

    > The problem I have with the German approach to road safety is that they
    > have consistently refused to impose speed limits on autobahns, in
    > defiance of EU policy. This enables their auto industry to produce ever
    > faster vehicles with which the rest of the world has to compete. Thus,
    > they subject the rest of us to the tyranny of speed whilst ensuring that
    > their own communities are protected.


    People have always wanted to go fast and always will. It's the 18.5mph
    limit in towns like Hilden that makes the difference, not how fast they
    go on their motorways.

    A convincing case could probably be made for reducing all UK town
    limits to 20mph, with continuous constant camera enforcement
    everywhere, in "exchange" for raising the general motorway speed limits
    to 100 or 120mph. That would give the motoring speed lobby what the
    they want while making town roads everywhere vastly safer for everyone.

    BTW, ISTR the fastest production car in the world is British, not
    German (and the parent company is American). Jaguar XJ220, 220mph.
     
  10. Tom

    Tom Guest

    Pyromancer <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Simon Geller wrote:
    >
    >
    > BTW, ISTR the fastest production car in the world is British, not
    > German (and the parent company is American). Jaguar XJ220, 220mph.


    McLaren F1 240.1 mph

    Tom
    --
    Return address is dead. Real address is at
    http://toomanybikes.com/address.jpg
     
  11. Peter Clinch

    Peter Clinch Guest

    Tom wrote:
    > Pyromancer <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> Simon Geller wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >> BTW, ISTR the fastest production car in the world is British, not
    >> German (and the parent company is American). Jaguar XJ220, 220mph.

    >
    > McLaren F1 240.1 mph


    <anorak> The Bugatti Veyron is apparently good for 252 </anorak>

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
     
  12. Tom

    Tom Guest

    Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > <anorak> The Bugatti Veyron is apparently good for 252 </anorak>
    >
    >


    <pedant> The Bugatti Veyron is not, and probably never will be a production
    car (i.e. One hundred sold)</pedant>

    Tom :)


    --
    Return address is dead. Real address is at
    http://toomanybikes.com/address.jpg
     
  13. Peter Clinch

    Peter Clinch Guest

  14. In article <[email protected]>, Peter Clinch
    ([email protected]) wrote:
    > Tom wrote:
    > > Pyromancer <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> Simon Geller wrote:
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> BTW, ISTR the fastest production car in the world is British, not
    > >> German (and the parent company is American). Jaguar XJ220, 220mph.

    > >
    > > McLaren F1 240.1 mph

    >
    > <anorak> The Bugatti Veyron is apparently good for 252 </anorak>


    And is built in France, by a German-owned company, using the name of an
    Italian who moved to Germany to build motorcars but found himself in
    France after the First Great Unpleasantness.

    My grate frend gNick worked on the design of its gearbox.

    --
    Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
    Do not top-post like a Cretinous Foul-Yob fit only for Stoning.
     
  15. In article <[email protected]>, Tom
    (Don'[email protected]) wrote:
    > Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > <anorak> The Bugatti Veyron is apparently good for 252 </anorak>
    > >
    > >

    >
    > <pedant> The Bugatti Veyron is not, and probably never will be a production
    > car (i.e. One hundred sold)</pedant>


    <petrolhead>
    McLaren F1: 64 standard, 5 LMs, 3 GTs, 28 GTRs. Total 100
    </petrolhead>

    --
    Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
    Better hide the pork scratchings...
     
  16. Tom

    Tom Guest

    Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Take that up with wikipedia...
    >
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Veyron
    >


    "Bugatti originally planned to build 300 Veyrons over five years. However,
    with just 30 to 40 sold as of December 2005, production is now expected to
    last for eight years. It is not clear how many have yet been built or
    whether any are in the hands of customers"

    So still not a "production" car

    However I was not aware that any had been manufactured for private
    ownership, so on that point I stand corrected.

    Tom

    --
    Return address is dead. Real address is at
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  17. Peter Clinch

    Peter Clinch Guest

    Tom wrote:

    > So still not a "production" car


    Though hardly likely that it will "never be one" if they're in
    production for 8 years and selling in double figures so far.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
     
  18. Tom

    Tom Guest

    "Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Tom wrote:
    >
    >> So still not a "production" car

    >
    > Though hardly likely that it will "never be one" if they're in production
    > for 8 years and selling in double figures so far.
    >


    You're quite possibly right, but if they are losing £4.5 million on each
    one I bet they don't want to be :)

    Tom

    --
    Return address is dead. Real address is at
    http://toomanybikes.com/address.jpg
     
  19. Richard

    Richard Guest

    Pyromancer wrote:

    > in "exchange" for raising the general motorway speed limits
    > to 100 or 120mph.


    Which would result in far more accidents, as the closing speeds between
    chav-rep-racer-tossers doing the obligatory (speed limit + 30 mph) and
    an artic lumbering up the hill is going to double to be around 100 mph.

    It would also reduce the road capacity by a factor of around four (since
    safe separation distance goes roughly as kinetic energy), thus
    increasing traffic jams.

    It would also make ever more intolerable anyone living near a motorway;
    the M1 has sections where the traffic noise drowns out soft conversation
    outdoors around a mile away *already*.

    And then there's chemical pollution, noise pollution, petrol
    consumption, &c, &c.

    Daft idea, sorry.

    R.
     
  20. Matt B

    Matt B Guest

    Richard wrote:
    > Pyromancer wrote:
    >
    >> in "exchange" for raising the general motorway speed limits
    >> to 100 or 120mph.

    ....
    >
    > It would also reduce the road capacity by a factor of around four (since
    > safe separation distance goes roughly as kinetic energy), thus
    > increasing traffic jams.


    Unless more roads are built, of course.

    > It would also make ever more intolerable anyone living near a motorway;
    > the M1 has sections where the traffic noise drowns out soft conversation
    > outdoors around a mile away *already*.


    If an adequate motorway /network/ was built the traffic would be spread
    more thinly, thus the M1 would be quieter.

    > And then there's chemical pollution, noise pollution, petrol
    > consumption, &c, &c.


    Caused by congestion, caused by the lack of an adequate motorway network.

    --
    Matt B
     
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