Workout while in Ketosis burns FAT or MUSCLES?

Discussion in 'Food and nutrition' started by Roger Zoul, Jan 4, 2005.

  1. Roger Zoul

    Roger Zoul Guest

    John E wrote:
    || Hi Folks,
    ||
    || When we don't have enough carbs (in Ketosis) and do extraneous
    || workout, do we end up burning muscles or fat or a combination of
    || both?

    Well, you're eating both fat and protein, so your body will look for dietary
    sources first. So, with sufficient protein in your diet, you need not
    worry. Protein can be converted to glucose, too.

    ||
    || This is somewhat similar to my previous post, sorry, but I had
    || something else in mind.
    ||
    || When I go to the gym while in Ketosis, I tend to workout harder
    || knowing I am burning fat for energy in every move I make.

    ||
    || Is it the case?
    ||

    Probably not. You're burning ketones and whatever protein that got
    converted to glucose (primarily used by the brain). Some lifting movements
    require different energy systems that fat. But the more energy you burn, the
    greater the calorie deficit you can create, and the better you lose fat.

    Don't worry about it too much. Just get sufficient protein and maintain a
    calorie deficit.


    || Thanks,
    ||
    || J.
     
    Tags:


  2. John E

    John E Guest

    Hi Folks,

    When we don't have enough carbs (in Ketosis) and do extraneous workout,
    do we end up burning muscles or fat or a combination of both?

    This is somewhat similar to my previous post, sorry, but I had
    something else in mind.

    When I go to the gym while in Ketosis, I tend to workout harder
    knowing I am burning fat for energy in every move I make.

    Is it the case?

    Thanks,

    J.
     
  3. Tom

    Tom Guest

    "John E" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Hi Folks,
    >
    > When we don't have enough carbs (in Ketosis) and do extraneous workout,
    > do we end up burning muscles or fat or a combination of both?
    >
    > This is somewhat similar to my previous post, sorry, but I had
    > something else in mind.
    >
    > When I go to the gym while in Ketosis, I tend to workout harder
    > knowing I am burning fat for energy in every move I make.
    >
    > Is it the case?
    >
    > Thanks,
    >
    > J.
    >
    >


    Hi John. If you are trying to lose weight, it may be difficult to gain
    mass if your overall calories are too low. It is much easier to gain muscle
    mass when you are eating more than you need. I had no problems making some
    strength gains while I was losing weight. I found that I didn't have the
    energy for running while I was losing weight, but if you can, than do so. I
    just walked for 1/2 to 1 hour on the days I wasn't weight training. If you
    feel you can do more, go for it. If you are exercising and eating enough
    protein your body will tend to want to keep it's muscles and use more fat
    for energy.
    Tom
    210/180/180
     
  4. Bev-Ann

    Bev-Ann Guest

    You also need more protein on LC since a lot of the protein you eat is
    being converted to carbs for energy. Your body converts protein before
    converting fat. If you eat only enough protein to sustain energy for
    normal activities, you won't have anything left to replenish your muscles
    during exercise and won't be able to maintain and rebuild your muscle
    tissue.
    This is the philosophy of the Protein Power Lifeplan which is the LC plan I
    follow. The OP might consider picking up the book at his local library.

    on Wed, 05 Jan 2005 04:34:36 GMT, "Tom" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Hi John. If you are trying to lose weight, it may be difficult to gain
    >mass if your overall calories are too low. It is much easier to gain muscle
    >mass when you are eating more than you need. I had no problems making some
    >strength gains while I was losing weight. I found that I didn't have the
    >energy for running while I was losing weight, but if you can, than do so. I
    >just walked for 1/2 to 1 hour on the days I wasn't weight training. If you
    >feel you can do more, go for it. If you are exercising and eating enough
    >protein your body will tend to want to keep it's muscles and use more fat
    >for energy.


    -----
    Bev
     
  5. Tom

    Tom Guest

    "Bev-Ann" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:eek:[email protected]
    > You also need more protein on LC since a lot of the protein you eat is
    > being converted to carbs for energy. Your body converts protein before
    > converting fat. If you eat only enough protein to sustain energy for
    > normal activities, you won't have anything left to replenish your muscles
    > during exercise and won't be able to maintain and rebuild your muscle
    > tissue.
    > This is the philosophy of the Protein Power Lifeplan which is the LC plan

    I
    > follow. The OP might consider picking up the book at his local library.


    Here is a summary of the book.
    http://www.lowcarb.ca/atkins-diet-and-low-carb-plans/protein-power.html

    I've never read the book. At the bottom of the page, it explains how
    weight training can improve your caloric requirement to maintain the new
    muscle. Does your book say that the body's prefered fuel order is carbs,
    protein, and lastly fat? I realize that at any time there are a mixture of
    all being used. Why would the body catobolize muscle tissue before fat in an
    absence of carbs? If that were true, then exercise would not be recommended
    because there is a little bit of muscle breakdown that occurs after weight
    training. And if protein was the next prefered fuel, a person would waste
    away. Under what conditions does the body start prefering fat as fuel?


    >
    > on Wed, 05 Jan 2005 04:34:36 GMT, "Tom" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > Hi John. If you are trying to lose weight, it may be difficult to gain
    > >mass if your overall calories are too low. It is much easier to gain

    muscle
    > >mass when you are eating more than you need. I had no problems making

    some
    > >strength gains while I was losing weight. I found that I didn't have the
    > >energy for running while I was losing weight, but if you can, than do so.

    I
    > >just walked for 1/2 to 1 hour on the days I wasn't weight training. If

    you
    > >feel you can do more, go for it. If you are exercising and eating enough
    > >protein your body will tend to want to keep it's muscles and use more fat
    > >for energy.

    >
    > -----
    > Bev
     
  6. Roger Zoul

    Roger Zoul Guest

    Tom wrote:
    :: "Bev-Ann" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    :: news:eek:[email protected]
    ::: You also need more protein on LC since a lot of the protein you eat
    ::: is being converted to carbs for energy. Your body converts protein
    ::: before converting fat. If you eat only enough protein to sustain
    ::: energy for normal activities, you won't have anything left to
    ::: replenish your muscles during exercise and won't be able to
    ::: maintain and rebuild your muscle tissue.
    ::: This is the philosophy of the Protein Power Lifeplan which is the
    ::: LC plan I follow. The OP might consider picking up the book at his
    ::: local library.
    ::
    :: Here is a summary of the book.
    :: http://www.lowcarb.ca/atkins-diet-and-low-carb-plans/protein-power.html
    ::
    :: I've never read the book. At the bottom of the page, it explains
    :: how weight training can improve your caloric requirement to maintain
    :: the new muscle. Does your book say that the body's prefered fuel
    :: order is carbs, protein, and lastly fat?

    Lots of folks say this. However, I think it is an incorrect statement.
    Just because the body will go after first and metabolize carbs quickly
    doesn't mean carbs are the body's "preferred" fuel. It could very well mean
    that the body finds carbs toxic (especially too many), so it does its best
    to get rid of them quickly. Obviously, intense exercise provides a place
    for them to go.


    I realize that at any time
    :: there are a mixture of all being used. Why would the body catobolize
    :: muscle tissue before fat in an absence of carbs?

    I think it does so only when too little dietary protein is available.
    Protein is needed for building new issue, etc, so it does more than simply
    supply energy.

    If that were true,
    :: then exercise would not be recommended because there is a little bit
    :: of muscle breakdown that occurs after weight training. And if
    :: protein was the next prefered fuel, a person would waste away. Under
    :: what conditions does the body start prefering fat as fuel? \

    Again, I think it's incorrect to list the preferred fuels like this. The
    body needs to be able to metabolize protein to repair itself, so it will do
    so as needed. Fat is generally needed strictly as an energy source and the
    body will go to it to support certain types of functions and certain organs
    (like the heart - since carbs can be depleted quickly, if the heart were to
    rely on carbs one could get into trouble very quickly).

    I didn't realize 'til now that the Eades recommend HIIT! Good for them!
    Definitely a plan I can get behind.



    ::
    ::
    :::
    ::: on Wed, 05 Jan 2005 04:34:36 GMT, "Tom" <[email protected]> wrote:
    :::
    :::: Hi John. If you are trying to lose weight, it may be difficult
    :::: to gain mass if your overall calories are too low. It is much
    :::: easier to gain muscle mass when you are eating more than you need.
    :::: I had no problems making some strength gains while I was losing
    :::: weight. I found that I didn't have the energy for running while I
    :::: was losing weight, but if you can, than do so. I just walked for
    :::: 1/2 to 1 hour on the days I wasn't weight training. If you feel
    :::: you can do more, go for it. If you are exercising and eating
    :::: enough protein your body will tend to want to keep it's muscles
    :::: and use more fat for energy.
    :::
    ::: -----
    ::: Bev
     
  7. Bob M

    Bob M Guest

    On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:21:55 -0500, Roger Zoul <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    > Tom wrote:
    > :: "Bev-Ann" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > :: news:eek:[email protected]
    > ::: You also need more protein on LC since a lot of the protein you eat
    > ::: is being converted to carbs for energy. Your body converts protein
    > ::: before converting fat. If you eat only enough protein to sustain
    > ::: energy for normal activities, you won't have anything left to
    > ::: replenish your muscles during exercise and won't be able to
    > ::: maintain and rebuild your muscle tissue.
    > ::: This is the philosophy of the Protein Power Lifeplan which is the
    > ::: LC plan I follow. The OP might consider picking up the book at his
    > ::: local library.
    > ::
    > :: Here is a summary of the book.
    > ::
    > http://www.lowcarb.ca/atkins-diet-and-low-carb-plans/protein-power.html
    > ::
    > :: I've never read the book. At the bottom of the page, it explains
    > :: how weight training can improve your caloric requirement to maintain
    > :: the new muscle. Does your book say that the body's prefered fuel
    > :: order is carbs, protein, and lastly fat?
    >
    > Lots of folks say this. However, I think it is an incorrect statement.
    > Just because the body will go after first and metabolize carbs quickly
    > doesn't mean carbs are the body's "preferred" fuel. It could very well
    > mean
    > that the body finds carbs toxic (especially too many), so it does its
    > best
    > to get rid of them quickly. Obviously, intense exercise provides a place
    > for them to go.
    >
    >


    I think it's probably a much more complex relationship than currently
    known (and probably varies from individual to individual). For aerobics,
    though, I think you could say that the higher your HR/output, the higher
    amount of carbs you'll burn.

    --
    Bob in CT
     
  8. Tom

    Tom Guest

    "Roger Zoul" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Tom wrote:
    > :: "Bev-Ann" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > :: news:eek:[email protected]
    > ::: You also need more protein on LC since a lot of the protein you eat
    > ::: is being converted to carbs for energy. Your body converts protein
    > ::: before converting fat. If you eat only enough protein to sustain
    > ::: energy for normal activities, you won't have anything left to
    > ::: replenish your muscles during exercise and won't be able to
    > ::: maintain and rebuild your muscle tissue.
    > ::: This is the philosophy of the Protein Power Lifeplan which is the
    > ::: LC plan I follow. The OP might consider picking up the book at his
    > ::: local library.
    > ::
    > :: Here is a summary of the book.
    > :: http://www.lowcarb.ca/atkins-diet-and-low-carb-plans/protein-power.html
    > ::
    > :: I've never read the book. At the bottom of the page, it explains
    > :: how weight training can improve your caloric requirement to maintain
    > :: the new muscle. Does your book say that the body's prefered fuel
    > :: order is carbs, protein, and lastly fat?
    >
    > Lots of folks say this. However, I think it is an incorrect statement.
    > Just because the body will go after first and metabolize carbs quickly
    > doesn't mean carbs are the body's "preferred" fuel. It could very well

    mean
    > that the body finds carbs toxic (especially too many), so it does its best
    > to get rid of them quickly. Obviously, intense exercise provides a place
    > for them to go.


    That sounds reasonable to say that even though carbs may be burned more
    readily, it may not be the prefered fuel. Based on what bev was saying, I
    couldn't figure how more protein would be needed because it was being
    converted to glucose for fuel, since protein is more likely to be used for
    repairing tissue and would be highly wastful in the conversion to fuel. Fat
    would be the main source and protein(in muscle tissues) would be spared.
    Perhaps she meant that dietary protein would be more readily available for
    fuel?

    >
    >
    > I realize that at any time
    > :: there are a mixture of all being used. Why would the body catobolize
    > :: muscle tissue before fat in an absence of carbs?
    >
    > I think it does so only when too little dietary protein is available.
    > Protein is needed for building new issue, etc, so it does more than simply
    > supply energy.


    Yes, which shouldn't be a problem on a lo-carb diet. Usually protein is
    slightly increased, and fat more so.

    >
    > If that were true,
    > :: then exercise would not be recommended because there is a little bit
    > :: of muscle breakdown that occurs after weight training. And if
    > :: protein was the next prefered fuel, a person would waste away. Under
    > :: what conditions does the body start prefering fat as fuel? \
    >
    > Again, I think it's incorrect to list the preferred fuels like this. The
    > body needs to be able to metabolize protein to repair itself, so it will

    do
    > so as needed. Fat is generally needed strictly as an energy source and

    the
    > body will go to it to support certain types of functions and certain

    organs
    > (like the heart - since carbs can be depleted quickly, if the heart were

    to
    > rely on carbs one could get into trouble very quickly).


    Yes. Fat would be the fuel on lo-carb not protein. I just wanted
    clarification about why anyone would think that protein conversion to fuel
    would be the preference in the absense of carbs. Some of that would happen,
    but it definitely wouldn't be primary. As you are also pointing out, that
    the order of preference should not be carb,fat,protein, because it was
    thought that carbs were prefered because they burn first. New research
    indicates that fat is the prefered fuel. It's like saying that alcohol is
    prefered because it burns first before carbs. Just because it is burned up
    faster, does not mean it is prefered.

    >
    > I didn't realize 'til now that the Eades recommend HIIT! Good for them!
    > Definitely a plan I can get behind.


    I don't know what protein power rcommends, but from what I have been
    reading, Short duration workouts in high intensity works best in aerobic as
    well as weight training. My weight training workouts now are mainly brief,
    high intensity with compound exercises, and on a schedule of Mon,Fri,Wed,
    then repeat. Basically 6 workouts in 2 weeks, alternating each week as
    either 2 weight training and 1 aerobic, or 2 aerobic and 1 weight training.
    I jog, swim, ride bike, or walk on the other MFW that I am not lifting. In
    the spring, I'm going to increase the intensity of the aerobic, but shorten
    the duration. Apparently you don't have to run for long periods of time for
    aerobic fitness. Shorter duration jogging with wind sprints accomplishes the
    same results.
    >
    >
    >
    > ::
    > ::
    > :::
    > ::: on Wed, 05 Jan 2005 04:34:36 GMT, "Tom" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > :::
    > :::: Hi John. If you are trying to lose weight, it may be difficult
    > :::: to gain mass if your overall calories are too low. It is much
    > :::: easier to gain muscle mass when you are eating more than you need.
    > :::: I had no problems making some strength gains while I was losing
    > :::: weight. I found that I didn't have the energy for running while I
    > :::: was losing weight, but if you can, than do so. I just walked for
    > :::: 1/2 to 1 hour on the days I wasn't weight training. If you feel
    > :::: you can do more, go for it. If you are exercising and eating
    > :::: enough protein your body will tend to want to keep it's muscles
    > :::: and use more fat for energy.
    > :::
    > ::: -----
    > ::: Bev
    >
    >
     
  9. Roger Zoul

    Roger Zoul Guest

    Tom wrote:
    :: "Roger Zoul" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    :: news:[email protected]
    ::: Tom wrote:
    ::::: "Bev-Ann" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    ::::: news:eek:[email protected]
    :::::: You also need more protein on LC since a lot of the protein you
    :::::: eat is being converted to carbs for energy. Your body converts
    :::::: protein before converting fat. If you eat only enough protein
    :::::: to sustain energy for normal activities, you won't have anything
    :::::: left to replenish your muscles during exercise and won't be able
    :::::: to maintain and rebuild your muscle tissue.
    :::::: This is the philosophy of the Protein Power Lifeplan which is the
    :::::: LC plan I follow. The OP might consider picking up the book at
    :::::: his local library.
    :::::
    ::::: Here is a summary of the book.
    :::::
    http://www.lowcarb.ca/atkins-diet-and-low-carb-plans/protein-power.html
    :::::
    ::::: I've never read the book. At the bottom of the page, it
    ::::: explains how weight training can improve your caloric requirement
    ::::: to maintain the new muscle. Does your book say that the body's
    ::::: prefered fuel order is carbs, protein, and lastly fat?
    :::
    ::: Lots of folks say this. However, I think it is an incorrect
    ::: statement. Just because the body will go after first and metabolize
    ::: carbs quickly doesn't mean carbs are the body's "preferred" fuel.
    ::: It could very well mean that the body finds carbs toxic (especially
    ::: too many), so it does its best to get rid of them quickly.
    ::: Obviously, intense exercise provides a place for them to go.
    ::
    :: That sounds reasonable to say that even though carbs may be
    :: burned more readily, it may not be the prefered fuel. Based on what
    :: bev was saying, I couldn't figure how more protein would be needed
    :: because it was being converted to glucose for fuel, since protein is
    :: more likely to be used for repairing tissue and would be highly
    :: wastful in the conversion to fuel. Fat would be the main source and
    :: protein(in muscle tissues) would be spared. Perhaps she meant that
    :: dietary protein would be more readily available for fuel?

    I think that's what she meant. Also, protein requirements are generally
    higher for active people (ie, athletes) and for sedentary folks.

    ::
    :::
    :::
    ::: I realize that at any time
    ::::: there are a mixture of all being used. Why would the body
    ::::: catobolize muscle tissue before fat in an absence of carbs?
    :::
    ::: I think it does so only when too little dietary protein is
    ::: available. Protein is needed for building new issue, etc, so it
    ::: does more than simply supply energy.
    ::
    :: Yes, which shouldn't be a problem on a lo-carb diet. Usually
    :: protein is slightly increased, and fat more so.

    Exactly.

    ::
    :::
    ::: If that were true,
    ::::: then exercise would not be recommended because there is a little
    ::::: bit of muscle breakdown that occurs after weight training. And if
    ::::: protein was the next prefered fuel, a person would waste away.
    ::::: Under what conditions does the body start prefering fat as fuel? \
    :::
    ::: Again, I think it's incorrect to list the preferred fuels like
    ::: this. The body needs to be able to metabolize protein to repair
    ::: itself, so it will do so as needed. Fat is generally needed
    ::: strictly as an energy source and the body will go to it to support
    ::: certain types of functions and certain organs (like the heart -
    ::: since carbs can be depleted quickly, if the heart were to rely on
    ::: carbs one could get into trouble very quickly).
    ::
    :: Yes. Fat would be the fuel on lo-carb not protein. I just wanted
    :: clarification about why anyone would think that protein conversion
    :: to fuel would be the preference in the absense of carbs. Some of
    :: that would happen, but it definitely wouldn't be primary. As you are
    :: also pointing out, that the order of preference should not be
    :: carb,fat,protein, because it was thought that carbs were prefered
    :: because they burn first. New research indicates that fat is the
    :: prefered fuel. It's like saying that alcohol is prefered because it
    :: burns first before carbs. Just because it is burned up faster, does
    :: not mean it is prefered.

    Exactly. However, this isn't what is typically heard thereabouts. I've
    heard it so many times that carbs are the body's preferred fuel.

    ::
    :::
    ::: I didn't realize 'til now that the Eades recommend HIIT! Good for
    ::: them! Definitely a plan I can get behind.
    ::
    :: I don't know what protein power rcommends, but from what I have
    :: been reading, Short duration workouts in high intensity works best
    :: in aerobic as well as weight training.

    In general, weight training is automatically an interval workout....while
    you're lifting HR gets pushed up, and inbetween movements it drops. "Heavy
    workouts" (as in lifting heavy) drive HR up higher than "lighter workouts."
    However, with aerobics, we were taught for a long time to do long steady
    movement at a heart rate which made "fat" burning optimal. However, such an
    activity might not burn that many calories. In fact, the metabolic kick of
    typical "fat-burning aerobics" lasts for about 5 mins after the activity.
    So the main benefit as far as dieting is concerned is from the calories you
    burn *during* exercise. However, if you mix low intensity "aerobic" activity
    with high intensity activity (ie, intervals) you get a much greater lasting
    "metobolic kick" in the time period after the workout (which, BTW, is what
    happends in weight training). So, given equal amounts of time in each, high
    intensity interval training (HIIT) will result in greater calories burned
    (assuming its done right). Research suggests much greater fat burn, too.

    http://www.wsu.edu/~strength/hiit.htm
    http://www.cbass.com/FATBURN.HTM



    My weight training workouts
    :: now are mainly brief, high intensity with compound exercises, and on
    :: a schedule of Mon,Fri,Wed, then repeat. Basically 6 workouts in 2
    :: weeks, alternating each week as either 2 weight training and 1
    :: aerobic, or 2 aerobic and 1 weight training. I jog, swim, ride bike,
    :: or walk on the other MFW that I am not lifting. In the spring, I'm
    :: going to increase the intensity of the aerobic, but shorten the
    :: duration. Apparently you don't have to run for long periods of time
    :: for aerobic fitness. Shorter duration jogging with wind sprints
    :: accomplishes the same results.

    Interesting. I generally weight train 3x per week and do cardio as much as
    possible. Sometimes after a lifting session and most times on the days in
    between. Bike riding happens on the weekends during season. I don't do
    HIIT every cardio session -- especially when I'm feeling drained from low
    carb and low calorie eating -- like right now.

    :::
    :::
    :::
    :::::
    :::::
    ::::::
    :::::: on Wed, 05 Jan 2005 04:34:36 GMT, "Tom" <[email protected]>
    :::::: wrote:
    ::::::
    ::::::: Hi John. If you are trying to lose weight, it may be difficult
    ::::::: to gain mass if your overall calories are too low. It is much
    ::::::: easier to gain muscle mass when you are eating more than you
    ::::::: need. I had no problems making some strength gains while I was
    ::::::: losing weight. I found that I didn't have the energy for
    ::::::: running while I was losing weight, but if you can, than do so.
    ::::::: I just walked for 1/2 to 1 hour on the days I wasn't weight
    ::::::: training. If you feel you can do more, go for it. If you are
    ::::::: exercising and eating enough protein your body will tend to
    ::::::: want to keep it's muscles and use more fat for energy.
    ::::::
    :::::: -----
    :::::: Bev
     
  10. Bev-Ann

    Bev-Ann Guest

    I don't know that it's the "preferred fuel order", but that's the order
    they list as being how the body burns what we eat, although it's likely
    much more complicated than that. They also say that alcohol will be burned
    before all of these and that's why it will stall weight loss even on LC.

    on Wed, 05 Jan 2005 15:33:27 GMT, "Tom" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I've never read the book. At the bottom of the page, it explains how
    >weight training can improve your caloric requirement to maintain the new
    >muscle. Does your book say that the body's prefered fuel order is carbs,
    >protein, and lastly fat?


    -----
    Bev
     
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