World class 5 min power clip example



wiredued said:
Maybe while you were doing all the book learning he was training and racing cat 1 I wouldn't call him a sham for the calibration mistake. Timan's convictions on doping might not measure up but he is alot more approachable than you are.

it's a pretty big mistake to make. two things, from memory (i don't have the data to hand) but 1) the power to mass ratio was at or near the top end for pursuit/VO2max power - this should have rang warning bells 2) the power and time data do not match, even remotely

and i guess there is a 3rd. 3) the magnitude of the increase from previous efforts is too large. It suggests, untrained to trained, or drugs, or bad calibration

ric
 
ric_stern/RST said:
Yes, i have issues. Issues, with people who are continuing to ruin or have ruined our great sport. When the sponsors pull the plug and there's no racing left (and sponsors are leaving the sport) then perhaps you can think on and wonder why the sport is dead (don't just think the doping and sponsorship affects only pro level sport).

I see nothing wrong with wanting a zero tolerance policy on (ex) dopers in the sport. people have been given chance after chance to clear the situation up, and nothing has changed. We had Festinagate, Oil for Drugs, Operation Puerto, Landis, and now this years debacle. Countless small incidences in between; Hamilton and his twin chimera, and a myriad of incidences prior to Festina 98. Tommy Simpson died 40 years ago, and we had ten (?) or so Dutch riders die in the early '90s.

Then you've got timan, coming on here telling everyone about his doping, and how to do it correctly (rather than incorrectly). sorry, what medical training does he have? He's not really admitted too much. we don't know his name, and he still thinks that good riders can learn correct doping from him. Now, if he came on here and said: "look at the mess i made, lets try and talk you out of doping" he'd be a lot less scum. He's had no sanctions, he still races, and he coaches. That's not much incentive to not dope - it's saying that crime does pay.

Doping is wrong. I feel strongly about it. I'm sorry if that upsets you.

Ric
Yes, there are certainly some pointed questions you need to ask him directly. Namely, does he currenty counsel any of clients clients on how to dope? Does he coach any clients that are currently doping? And if he finds out they are, does he drop them as clients? These are perhaps the questions that should be asked before we resort to the shrill tone and name calling.
Integrity is important, yet integrity also involves how we moderate our behavior and how we treat others. As a lurker here, and as an athlete and as aspiring coach, I'm more interested in getting varying and honest perspectives. I'm less interested in ego battles over who gets to be the alpha dog of cyclingforums.com, or who is "right" with respect to, say, weight training and cycling performance. We're all adults here, this is an open forum, perhaps it's best for us to decide what is relevent content.

I don't mean to call you out or be curt, but I would suggest you lose a little of the arrogance and bully tactics. Flame wars don't, in the end, get you credibility, either in cyberspace or real life.
 
Mr.Stern
Riis admitted his doping and in my books that means something. Yes he made millions from his past doping and took 11 years to come clean but at least he did. That's a hell of a lot better than almost all the others.

To say that he should never coach because he doped in the past is simply ridiculous. So what if he doped in the past when everyone else was also doped. Read Voits book for starters. That's the way it was and looks like still is. Just because he doped in the past doesn't mean that he is going to dope his riders. Besides riders dope THEMSELVES and don't need a coach to tell them how to do it. It isn't rocket science.

Also, in reference to timan. If you know a guys is doping don't you think it is responsible to tell them how to be safe. ie: If a guy is using epo and has jacked his hematocrit don't you think it is repsonsible to first tell him to stop and if he doesn't stop don't you think you should tell him to be sure to not get dehydrated,what a safe hematocrit limit is, and to make frequent hematocirt checks so he doesn't have aheart attack in the middle of the night. If you don't tell him and just walk away and keep your mouth shut and nthen something bad happens then how good are you doing to feel about that? Here is a true analogy. Would you not tell young teens, that you know damn well are having sex, how to be safe?

As far as your anaology re: child molester. I knew perfectly well what you were talking about Mr. Stern. True, a child molester should never be allowed to be in a position that puts him in frequent contact with children. This is because there is a real addiction..they are never "cured" of this. To use this as an analogy towards prior dopers and say that they should not be allowed to coach because they doped in the past just shows us all how out of touch you are. Prior dopers are not addicted to doping and do not seek out young men to dope! Give me a break!

If you want to ban all prior dopers that coach then you would loose a hell of a lot of good coaches indeed, like most ex pro's.

I was seriously thinking of looking you up for coaching but there is no way I will now. I think I'll contact timan, seriously, as he has helped me though many very detailed pm's and I think he knows his stuff at least as much as you and maybe more and he has a lot more practical experience and maturity than you that's for darn sure.

Get off your high and holy horse Mr. Stern and stop flaming like a child. I have never flamed in my life until I read this thread but you actually deserve it.
frown.gif
 
This thread is a pisser.

TiMan is a first class cockhead. The video was utterly pathetic and a very very sad attempt to con people. 99.99% of people on this forum could see that.

It was either a con job or an example of a pathetic coach. Take your pick.

So does TiMan know about doping or not? I mean he either only did it for one season years and years ago (and is now clean and doesnt know about proper administration of dope today) or he is an expert who keeps a very close eye on what is happening in dope circles and who you can trust when putting together your doping program right now. He cant be both (no he seriously cant).

On the video it took me about 4 seconds to realise he was one of those blokes who just talks ****en **** all day long.

I wouldnt touch him with a 10 foot pole.
 
Quadsweep said:
Mr.Stern
To say that he should never coach because he doped in the past is simply ridiculous. So what if he doped in the past when everyone else was also doped. Read Voits book for starters. That's the way it was and looks like still is. Just because he doped in the past doesn't mean that he is going to dope his riders. Besides riders dope THEMSELVES and don't need a coach to tell them how to do it. It isn't rocket science.

so, if doping isn't "rocket science"....

Also, in reference to timan. If you know a guys is doping don't you think it is responsible to tell them how to be safe.

why does timan need to intervene...?


Prior dopers are not addicted to doping and do not seek out young men to dope! Give me a break!

and here was me thinking that the users of Pot Belge who use heroin and coke _did_ have an addiction problem.

And while not psychologically addicted, what about the after effects of people who use, e.g., Epo or testosterone; where in some cases after long term use there is anecdotal evidence that the body's natural production levels shut down and they continue to need those products to help them live normally?

If you want to ban all prior dopers that coach then you would loose a hell of a lot of good coaches indeed, like most ex pro's.

Let's lose them. Most ex-pros don't make good coaches anyway.

I think I'll contact timan, seriously, as he has helped me though many very detailed pm's and I think he knows his stuff at least as much as you and maybe more and he has a lot more practical experience and maturity than you that's for darn sure.

clearly he doesn't, as he can't spot a simple error, and then uses it as a marketing tool (the poorly calibrated cranks). As for practical experience i don't think so (i've coached/worked with Div 1/Pro Tour riders through to people doing events such as sportives. I've been racing since 1984, and have raced in Europe and the UK.

Thanks
Ric
 
existence said:
This thread is a pisser.

TiMan is a first class cockhead. The video was utterly pathetic and a very very sad attempt to con people. 99.99% of people on this forum could see that.

It was either a con job or an example of a pathetic coach. Take your pick.

So does TiMan know about doping or not? I mean he either only did it for one season years and years ago (and is now clean and doesnt know about proper administration of dope today) or he is an expert who keeps a very close eye on what is happening in dope circles and who you can trust when putting together your doping program right now. He cant be both (no he seriously cant).

On the video it took me about 4 seconds to realise he was one of those blokes who just talks ****en **** all day long.

I wouldnt touch him with a 10 foot pole.
You're probably right about the vid. Unfortunately, my computer needs a hard drive reformat and I can't get You Tube vids to play.

I'm not saying he shouldn't be called out if he's counseling clients on doping. Let's just be clear about that before we start lobbing grenades.

Oh, and this thread's mild in comparison to most of the stuff I see on mtbr.com or roadbikereview.:cool:
 
Quadsweep said:
If you know a guys is doping don't you think it is responsible to tell them how to be safe. ie: If a guy is using epo and has jacked his hematocrit don't you think it is repsonsible to first tell him to stop and if he doesn't stop don't you think you should tell him to be sure to not get dehydrated,what a safe hematocrit limit is, and to make frequent hematocirt checks so he doesn't have aheart attack in the middle of the night. If you don't tell him and just walk away and keep your mouth shut and nthen something bad happens then how good are you doing to feel about that? Here is a true analogy. Would you not tell young teens, that you know damn well are having sex, how to be safe?
No, as a registered/accredited coach of a country's Cycling Association, it is your responsibility to ensure that there is no doping by any of your clients. Cycling Australia would remove my accreditation otherwise. Then I lose all protections provided by my association.

I would have thought the responsible course of action if you discovered any client was doping would be to confront them and require them to come clean and report themselves to their Cycling Authority otherwise you will do it yourself. Then they will cop a ban - that way they won't dope because they can't race anymore. Simple.
 
bbrauer said:
You're probably right about the vid. Unfortunately, my computer needs a hard drive reformat and I can't get You Tube vids to play.

I'm not saying he shouldn't be called out if he's counseling clients on doping. Let's just be clear about that before we start lobbing grenades.

Oh, and this thread's mild in comparison to most of the stuff I see on mtbr.com or roadbikereview.:cool:
Well I think its important to stomp on blokes if they even remotely try to permeate this 'doping is part of racing' culture.

The day you get try hard amateur athletes thinking mild doping is cool to move them from CAT 'very ****' to CAT '****' is the day you lose the sport altogether IMO.

Everyone has a role to play to clean up the sport from internet posters to pros. The day I come across someone doped racing against me will be interesting to say the least. I reckon I might earn myself some considerable 'time out in the norty corner' from the commissaries as a direct result. :mad:
 
existence said:
The day you get try hard amateur athletes thinking mild doping is cool to move them from CAT 'very ****' to CAT '****' is the day you lose the sport altogether IMO.. :mad:
Fair comment. The number of terrifying posts I've seen on other forums or heard about from other riders like "I'm a 45 yr old Cat 5 and I got dropped on my weekly group ride - will testosterone help?" or "I'm 16 and new to cycling - will caffeine pills help me ride faster before school"? "I'm training for L'etape de Tour - how should I cycle my EPO?" is indeed the sport flushing itself down the toilet.

Here's a good article: http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/07/27/the_amateurs_do_drugs_too.html
 
Not that I care about the two narcissistic videos :rolleyes: , but...

Quadsweep said:
Riis admitted his doping and in my books that means something. Yes he made millions from his past doping and took 11 years to come clean but at least he did.
I'm not sure what incentive Riis had to make his admissions at this point (although I'm sure there was one), but in my book it doesn't mean a lot to see someone admit to something long after they've escaped any associated repercussions.

Quadsweep said:
That's a hell of a lot better than almost all the others.
Wait 11 more years, and maybe you'll see that he's no better that the others (or at least that the others are just as 'good').
 
Quadsweep said:
Also, in reference to timan. If you know a guys is doping don't you think it is responsible to tell them how to be safe. ie: If a guy is using epo and has jacked his hematocrit don't you think it is repsonsible to first tell him to stop and if he doesn't stop don't you think you should tell him to be sure to not get dehydrated,what a safe hematocrit limit is, and to make frequent hematocirt checks so he doesn't have aheart attack in the middle of the night. If you don't tell him and just walk away and keep your mouth shut and nthen something bad happens then how good are you doing to feel about that? Here is a true analogy. Would you not tell young teens, that you know damn well are having sex, how to be safe?
It's responsible to tell him or her not to dope and fire the rider as a client, IMO. Maybe report the rider to the federation depending on the circumstances. I respectfully don't buy the analogy of "safe sex" practices and "safe" doping practices. Just for starters, absent medical training and physician licensure, providing instruction on how to take controlled drugs for a doping scheme by a "coach," at least in just about every state in the U.S., is practicing medicine without a license and is illegal, let alone negligent.
 
JIM WV said:
It's responsible to tell him or her not to dope and fire the rider as a client, IMO. Maybe report the rider to the federation depending on the circumstances. I respectfully don't buy the analogy of "safe sex" practices and "safe" doping practices. Just for starters, absent medical training and physician licensure, providing instruction on how to take controlled drugs for a doping scheme by a "coach," at least in just about every state in the U.S., is practicing medicine without a license and is illegal, let alone negligent.

Isn't this the case in Italy and France to? (the practicing medicine without a licence).
 
This has been an interesting and yet admittedly painful thread for me to happen upon.

I am guilty of past mistakes as well concerning the PED world as I have been open about it on this forum. I would like to think that I am not the same person that once was and I know my view points are completely different than those days. The sentiment of once guilty always guilty is kind of hard to face, but I guess that is part of the penalty for individuals like me for making such past mistakes. If Timan has changed like me than perhaps I personally could be forgiving because I understand his current passion to be involved in cycling in some fashion, but I also understand there will be a skeptism that will follow the associated athletes in each competition.

Since I have been bitten by the cycling bug and have improved drastically, I have had people around me tell me to start entering races, but I also feel the same side as what was stated here and I quietly said to those individuals that I cannot. The reason that I do not feel that I should compete anymore in my life in any type of competition is that I crossed the line and like alcohol to an alcoholic is competition becoming a potential temptation to cross that line again. Nor would I want to be a stumbling block to others that know me because if I did well in racing my past will never leave me as others would continue to speculate. Therefore, I am grateful to be nothing more than a club rider from this point forward.

Again based on the sentiment here in this thread and like other places I have faced the fact that there will be many that will say, "Once guilty, Always guilty." I feel blessed that my views have changed drastically. However, I can see both sides of this and I can clearly see the guilt by associatation play out in a public's eye that is getting skeptical over most top level athelete performances.

If there is anything I can share to those who have been considering crossing the line and are considering PED's. Consider this from a former user by some surficial proof on this thread. Using PED's is like getting a tatoo. It may look cool at first, but if you tire of it and want to remove it it will not be easily removed. Your reputation among many other things from the use of PED's will leave a lasting scar.

Perhaps my post is meaningless to this thread, but after reading some of these things I felt a desire to post.
 
The sentiment of once guilty always guilty is kind of hard to face, but I guess that is part of the penalty for individuals like me for making such past mistakes.
That's a simpleton's approach to life in general and one somebody with a clue about life should never hold to. You could be the biggest crackhead in the world but if you successfully quit it and stop doing crack, you're no longer a crack head. We all change through life. I can't imagine being judged by things I may have done years and years ago when I was a different person.

If you don't use PEDs now, you don't. It's as simple as that.
 
Felt_Rider said:
This has been an interesting and yet admittedly painful thread for me to happen upon.

I am guilty of past mistakes as well concerning the PED world as I have been open about it on this forum. I would like to think that I am not the same person that once was and I know my view points are completely different than those days. The sentiment of once guilty always guilty is kind of hard to face, but I guess that is part of the penalty for individuals like me for making such past mistakes. If Timan has changed like me than perhaps I personally could be forgiving because I understand his current passion to be involved in cycling in some fashion, but I also understand there will be a skeptism that will follow the associated athletes in each competition.

Since I have been bitten by the cycling bug and have improved drastically, I have had people around me tell me to start entering races, but I also feel the same side as what was stated here and I quietly said to those individuals that I cannot. The reason that I do not feel that I should compete anymore in my life in any type of competition is that I crossed the line and like alcohol to an alcoholic is competition becoming a potential temptation to cross that line again. Nor would I want to be a stumbling block to others that know me because if I did well in racing my past will never leave me as others would continue to speculate. Therefore, I am grateful to be nothing more than a club rider from this point forward.

Again based on the sentiment here in this thread and like other places I have faced the fact that there will be many that will say, "Once guilty, Always guilty." I feel blessed that my views have changed drastically. However, I can see both sides of this and I can clearly see the guilt by associatation play out in a public's eye that is getting skeptical over most top level athelete performances.

If there is anything I can share to those who have been considering crossing the line and are considering PED's. Consider this from a former user by some surficial proof on this thread. Using PED's is like getting a tatoo. It may look cool at first, but if you tire of it and want to remove it it will not be easily removed. Your reputation among many other things from the use of PED's will leave a lasting scar.

Perhaps my post is meaningless to this thread, but after reading some of these things I felt a desire to post.
Best post of the thread. Thanks.
 
And to think I was happy being the only one labeled scum on this forum...

I certainly hope that once guilty always guilty is not what's being advocated. I think that's a very hard pill to swallow and potentially destructive to both those that hold vengeful attitudes and those that are targeted by them. However, forgiveness does not eliminate consequence. It is hard for me to know if TiMan's errors in calibration were misguided or intentional for the purposes of marketing. Either way, he would not be the first or the highest profile coach to make errors when it comes to training with power (I've read very silly things by Friel and Carmichael and even sillier ones by Scott Saifer). In the same way, it is hard to know if he had a desire for harm prevention or promulgation when he talked about doping. I am happy that he no longer dopes and impressed with his capacity for self examination and the way he talks about the guilt that consumed him when he was doping. Still, he does say and possibly do things that are misguided at best and dishonest, dangerous and unethical at worst. I think it is quite fair that TiMan not be allowed to coach other athletes or be involved in our sport in an official capacity. That is consequence. The same for Riis, Zabel, Saiz and all the others. Nonetheless, I do not hate them and I hope they can come to a point where they are happy in themselves and do not need to resort to unethical methods later in life.

Still, I know well where Ric is coming from. Doping has gone on too long. Doping is pernicious. Doping has cost too much of our time and energy. I have raced P/1/2 in the states, A grade in Australia, won prize money at Superweek, got several podiums at collegiate/university championships, and so on. I am far from a great racer - I don't have the genetics to truly make it and I have too many other things on my plate as well. When I found out about riders at my level using dope, I was young (20), impressionable. Is this what people did? Is this what was required? It isn't easy when you know they are beating you. It isn't easy when you take pride in your sport and your performances mean a lot to you. I didn't dope, but I wonder about what would have happened if I'd been a little better, got over to Europe, and in a moment of weakness... I hope I wouldn't have. That is my take. But I don't know for sure. Now, at 25, I know for sure. Never. Never ever. The hardest part is accepting your path in life and accepting your limitations. I can be a good regional bike racer. That is all. If you are thinking about doping, I would suggest this - go for a ride with some kids, 15-20 year olds. See how they love the sport. See how much it means to them and the joy they take in it. Notice the ones with true talent. I know a kid who at 17 was well over Cat 1 power/weight at FTP. He is clean, he is national team, and he will make it. Do you want to take that away from the ones who love the sport, who work hard and work clean to get there? Do you want to be the bad example? No. Go away, meditate (really... try it...), accept your limitations and take joy from the strength of others. Move on, remember that you love the sport, and achieve your best.

One thing I take pride in - I know I have beaten dopers. I know I have done it at Superweek. I know I have done it in Melbourne. I know Joe Papp got caught. For a mediocre rider like me, this is the greatest revenge. When the time is right and the motivation is good, I work hard, I think hard and I race my strengths. If enough of us do it, most dopers will lose out, most are weak of mind and don't know what they are doing. The few that don't lose out, let's make the tests better and catch them.

One last thing that has bugged me for a while: recreational, non-performance enhancing drugs in out of competition testing. Sure, it is against the spirit of the sport to use them, but treating them the way WADA do is surely unjustified. Taking these things shows a lack of psychological fortitude and maturity and possibly underlying mental illness. It should not be viewed the same way as cheating. If you must test (and maybe this is a good idea), suspend athletes for a limited period, don't report it to the media, and offer counselling. Perhaps for repeat offenders a longer ban is necessary, but for young men and women, these substances will always be appealing to those seeking relief, those who can't accept life the way it is. Help them, don't punish them in extremis.

And that is my $0.02.
 
Roadie_scum said:
One last thing that has bugged me for a while: recreational, non-performance enhancing drugs in out of competition testing.
I waiver on this one. I can see your point. Think of Australian footballer Ben Cousins.

But then I think of Maradonna.

If I was a parent, I wouldn't want my son/daughter fratenising with users of any illicit substances and would encourage them into sports/activities where this was less likely to be the case.

Also, there may be a concern in terms of safety should such substances affect their on bike ability or impair their decision making.
 

Similar threads

J
Replies
1
Views
397
R