Worrying aspects of cycling fast

[mark]

"Simon Smith" wrote ...
> I'm new to cycling having just started riding a road bike with a
> campag setup after many years of not riding. Previously I had a Marin
> MTB back in the 1980's.
>
> I know I haven't fully got to grip with the bike yet but a couple of
> aspects I find very worrying :-
>
> 1. The brakes don't seem very effective. Descending steep hills
> frightens me and with my hands on the hoods I don't seem to be able to
> apply enough force on the rear brake to stop the bike. I can slow it
> down somewhat from about 40mph to 20mph but not nearly as quickly as I
> would like. Using a little front brake helps but I'm terrified of
> going over the handlebars ! Going down onto the drops is even more
> frightening as firstly there is a bad wobble when I switch position
> and secondly I feel so low that going over the handlebars seems
> inevitable. Also I can't change gears from this position.

Rear brakes aren't supposed to be very effective, as a long list of other
responders have explained. With dual pivot Campagnolo front brakes, you
*should* be able to modulate the front brake very nicely, keeping the
braking force just high enough to almost completely unweight the back wheel
without going over the bars or losing directional control. This is my
experience with 3 year old Campagnolo Chorus brakes, at any rate.

Hands on the hoods is not the most effective position for braking, IME. I
find that I can modulate front and rear brakes very nicely and adjust speed
nicely for corners, etc. from the hands on hoods position, but for really
effective braking I find that I am better off shifting to the drops. If I
have time, I shift gears prior to braking. In an emergency stopping
scenario, I accept the fact that I am going to be in a less than optimum
gear after I've come to a stop.

When I first got my current road bike, I adjusted the brakes with the pads
as close to the rims as I could manage, <1 mm as I recall. A very reputable
shop looked at the brakes and insisted on readjusting them with the pads 2-3
mm from the rims. As a result, modulation and stopping power went from
"quite good" to "really amazingly good". If you haven't already done so, it
might not hurt to have a really good bike shop look at the brakes.

Are you positive that your bike is the right size for you, and that it is
set up correctly? My intuition/experience tell me that top tube length, stem
length, and handlebar height will all affect stability and the likelihood of
going over the bars under hard braking. Your remarks about a bad wobble
while switching position on the handlebars and feeling "so low that going
over the handlebars seems inevitable" suggest that your riding position
might be less than optimum. Find a good shop and have them look at your
position on the bike.
HTH,
--
mark

 

[Jon Senior]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Not on a steep hill. Or at least I can't.

I can. And did for many years. It just requires braking to begin early.
On that bike though I couldn't bring it to a stop with either brake if
I'd got past about 10mph on a descent. It wasn't a case of no traction
at the rear, just no braking power at all.

Jon

 

[Jon Senior]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> NEVER brake with the rear brake.
>
> NEVER EVER EVER.
>
> Always use the FRONT BRAKE ONLY.
>
> You know, from sitting on the bike, how stable it feels. You will find
> the bike is a *lot* more stable with front braking. The rear wheel,
> when braking is applied, wants to kick out sideways, and you can feel
> that. The front brake does not behave in this way.

It's possible that you are not modulating the rear brake correctly, or
that your rear wheel does not track correctly. The only time my rear
wheel "wants to kick out sideways" is when I lock it, and the same
applies to the front only is more exciting.

Jon

 

[Pete Biggs]

I wrote:

> You use Campag levers so you should be able to if they're Mirage,
> Veloce, Centaur, Daytona, Chorus or Record Ergo levers. I'm not sure
> about Xenon. It's easier with some models of bars than others, and
> size of your hands and position on levers are factors as well.

CORRECTION: I meant "position OF levers". In other words: how high the
levers are on the bars.

The thumb button is normally reachable by hooking your thumb inside and up
the bars. Index finger for the finger lever.

~PB

 

[Zog The Undeniable]

Simon Smith wrote:

> I'm new to cycling having just started riding a road bike with a
> campag setup after many years of not riding. Previously I had a Marin
> MTB back in the 1980's.
>
> I know I haven't fully got to grip with the bike yet but a couple of
> aspects I find very worrying :-
>
> 1. The brakes don't seem very effective. Descending steep hills
> frightens me and with my hands on the hoods I don't seem to be able to
> apply enough force on the rear brake to stop the bike.

The rear brake is best regarded as a backup brake or for loose surfaces.
It has very little stopping power.

I can slow it
> down somewhat from about 40mph to 20mph but not nearly as quickly as I
> would like. Using a little front brake helps but I'm terrified of
> going over the handlebars !

You need to keep your weight right back- off the saddle if necessary for
a really short stop. I can skid the front wheel on dry tarmac - I don't
go over the bars.

Going down onto the drops is even more
> frightening as firstly there is a bad wobble when I switch position
> and secondly I feel so low that going over the handlebars seems
> inevitable. Also I can't change gears from this position.

What type of gear levers are you using? They're all normally at their
easiest to use from the drops - bar end shifters, down tube shifters or
combined brake/gear levers.

> 2. On my last ride descending into Buxton from the Cat and Fiddle I
> felt the bike veer to the outside of the road. I was doing about
> 25-0mph with the rear brake on (as usual) on a sweeping right hand
> bend and the bike seem to veer further and further to the left (and a
> precipitous ravine) despite my best efforts to steer the bike back
> into the road. Applying the front brake helped slowing it down further
> and then the problem stopped. It was windy so and it's an exposed spot
> so it could have been wind but I think it's unlikely as wind would
> come in gusts and suddenly knock you off course one or more times
> whereas this was a gradual creep.

Sounds like wind, or possibly a "washboard" surface bouncing the tyres
off the ground. Or you were just going too fast for the bend.

 

[Pete Biggs]

Zog The Undeniable wrote:
> You need to keep your weight right back- off the saddle if necessary
> for a really short stop. I can skid the front wheel on dry tarmac

In a straight line? On clean non-dusty/sandy tarmac? On what kind of
bike with what tyres?

That's somwhere between pretty difficult and impossible on a road bike
with road tyres. I can't get my weight back far enough to skid the front
tyre while being able to reach the bars!

~PB

 

[terry jones]

> Have
> faith in your tyres and use the brakes less.

except when descending in any direction from the cat and fiddle, where your
unmoderated speed could exceed 50mph quite easily.
Pride comes before a fall.

Actually that A road is full of fast drivers and lorries and big wind.
The area as a whole is laced with excellent back lanes,though.
There are several very steep bits around there which I would feel unsafe on
and usually avoid.
Going out with the local ctc is the quick way improve your skills in a
non-competitive mixed group.
TerryJ

 

[Richard Goodman]

"Toby Douglass" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote:
>> 1. The brakes don't seem very effective. Descending steep hills
>> frightens me and with my hands on the hoods I don't seem to be able to
>> apply enough force on the rear brake to stop the bike.
>
> NEVER brake with the rear brake.
>
> NEVER EVER EVER.
>

That's just silly. It's just as untrue to say that if you use the back
brake the rear wheel will slide out as it is to say that if you use the
front you'll inevitably go over the bars. The rear brake can be used
safely, mostly in conjunction with the front for normal slowing down. It
annoys me that some people seem clueless about how to use their brakes and
do stupid things like disconnect the front or rear brake noodles, when it is
manifestly so obvious how to use them: - more pressure = more braking
effect, less pressure=less effect, more braking effect is obtained from the
front, and if you feel either wheel locking ease off the pressure!

Rich

 

[Richard Goodman]

"Pete Biggs" <pblackcherry{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Zog The Undeniable wrote:
>> You need to keep your weight right back- off the saddle if necessary
>> for a really short stop. I can skid the front wheel on dry tarmac
>
> In a straight line? On clean non-dusty/sandy tarmac? On what kind of
> bike with what tyres?
>
> That's somwhere between pretty difficult and impossible on a road bike
> with road tyres. I can't get my weight back far enough to skid the front
> tyre while being able to reach the bars!
>

I am also unconvinced. The only times I've skidded my front wheel under
braking has been on wet leaves, diesel oil and sandy/loose surfaces. Which
reminds me - autumn and wet leaves are coming!

Rich

 

[Zog The Undeniable]

Pete Biggs wrote:

> Zog The Undeniable wrote:
>
>>You need to keep your weight right back- off the saddle if necessary
>>for a really short stop. I can skid the front wheel on dry tarmac
>
>
> In a straight line? On clean non-dusty/sandy tarmac? On what kind of
> bike with what tyres?
>
> That's somwhere between pretty difficult and impossible on a road bike
> with road tyres. I can't get my weight back far enough to skid the front
> tyre while being able to reach the bars!

Try snatching at the brake rather than squeezing it. I've done it in
the dry on an MTB with knobblies (which may help the tyre break away)
and in the wet on a road bike. The trick is to get the tyre skidding
(at which point friction is greatly reduced) before the bike has a
chance to flip.

 

[Pete Biggs]

Zog The Undeniable wrote:
> Pete Biggs wrote:
>
>> Zog The Undeniable wrote:
>>
>>> You need to keep your weight right back- off the saddle if necessary
>>> for a really short stop. I can skid the front wheel on dry tarmac
>>
>>
>> In a straight line? On clean non-dusty/sandy tarmac? On what kind
>> of bike with what tyres?
>>
>> That's somwhere between pretty difficult and impossible on a road
>> bike with road tyres. I can't get my weight back far enough to skid
>> the front tyre while being able to reach the bars!
>
> Try snatching at the brake rather than squeezing it.

I have done many a time. Excluding dodgy surfaces, I've only had a road
front tyre skid on a bend.

> I've done it in
> the dry on an MTB with knobblies (which may help the tyre break away)

They do. I've done the same, actually. I put it down to the tyre being
really **** (on road).

> and in the wet on a road bike.

Wet, yes, but that's not what we're talking about.

There you go you see. You haven't managed it on a road bike with slick
tyres on clean dry tarmac in a straight line. I've found that impossible
so far. Jobst Brandt says it's totally impossible. I don't believe every
word he writes, however

~PB

 

[Simon Smith]

Thanks everybody. I get the message that I should be using my front
brake rather than my back brake. I'll have a practice on some flat
ground - not that there is any around here.

I doubt that there is anything wrong with the setup as it's a brand
new bike with a Veloce groupset built by Macclesfield Cycles who seem
well regarded by the people that I've spoken to.

I don;t think that there is a problem with stem or bar setup either
because it's still on the maximum of 4 x 10mm spacers and I've tested
the reach using the arm length + 3 fingers from the saddle nose method
and it's spot on.

It does feel terribly low though, not so much on flat ground or slight
inclines upto 10% but for steeper descents of 20% - I probably just
need to practise more with a helmet on !

Other than this reticence descending, I really love the bike - I
bought it to compliment my running training as I was told that cycling
was an excellent way to improve climbing strength which is a
particular weakness of mine. I do find climbing much easier on the
bike - I can tackle 20%+ gradients on the bike (albeit standing) which
I wouldn't be able to run up for very far. Once I've mastered the
hills around the Goyt Valley, I'll have a go at Winnats Pass and Mam
Tor from Edale both a short ride from here.

Thanks again for all the very useful comments and suggestions.

 

[chris French]

In message <[email protected]>, Simon
Smith <[email protected]> writes
>Thanks everybody. I get the message that I should be using my front
>brake rather than my back brake. I'll have a practice on some flat
>ground - not that there is any around here.
>
>I doubt that there is anything wrong with the setup as it's a brand
>new bike with a Veloce groupset built by Macclesfield Cycles who seem
>well regarded by the people that I've spoken to.
>
how new, don't forget to have the brakes re-adjusted after a few week
after they've bedded down.

>I don;t think that there is a problem with stem or bar setup either
>because it's still on the maximum of 4 x 10mm spacers and I've tested
>the reach using the arm length + 3 fingers from the saddle nose method
>and it's spot on.
>
but it's still just a general rule. The test of the pudding is does it
feel right? I tend to like my reach a bit shorter than the rule suggests
for instance. but you do need to give yourself time to get used to the
riding position first.

>It does feel terribly low though, not so much on flat ground or slight
>inclines upto 10% but for steeper descents of 20% - I probably just
>need to practise more with a helmet on !
>
You'll get used to it.


--
Chris French, Leeds

 

[Pete Biggs]

Simon Smith wrote:
> I doubt that there is anything wrong with the setup as it's a brand
> new bike with a Veloce groupset built by Macclesfield Cycles who seem
> well regarded by the people that I've spoken to.
>
> I don;t think that there is a problem with stem or bar setup either
> because it's still on the maximum of 4 x 10mm spacers

That's only ok if the frame's head tube is long enough for you.

> and I've tested
> the reach using the arm length + 3 fingers from the saddle nose method
> and it's spot on.

I've always thought that method daft. Different people like different
positions and saddle lengths vary, not to mention a few other factors.
The position may well be ok for you (and just take more getting used to)
but you can't take it for granted that because the bike is "well setup"
that it really is well set up for *you*.

> It does feel terribly low though, not so much on flat ground or slight
> inclines upto 10% but for steeper descents of 20% - I probably just
> need to practise more with a helmet on !

The stem could be changed for one with more rise angle. It sounds as if
you're basically happy with the bike so maybe no need, but don't be afraid
to experiment if you do fancy a change. Small alterations can make a huge
difference to comfort, especially on longer rides.

~PB

 

[Arthur Clune]

Jon Senior <jon@restlesslemon_dot_co_dot_uk.remove> wrote:
: In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
:> Not on a steep hill. Or at least I can't.

: I can. And did for many years. It just requires braking to begin early.
: On that bike though I couldn't bring it to a stop with either brake if
: I'd got past about 10mph on a descent. It wasn't a case of no traction
: at the rear, just no braking power at all.

I think we're agreeing here really. Yes, I could stop with just the
rear brake if I never got above 10mph down the hill. I don't ride
like that though.

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

 

[Jon Senior]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> I think we're agreeing here really. Yes, I could stop with just the
> rear brake if I never got above 10mph down the hill. I don't ride
> like that though.

No. That was just my old bike. I can stop the Giant using just the rear
brake. It just takes longer. I was pedantically taking issue with
Simon's claim that it was not possible to stop a bike with just the back
brake.

Jon

 

[DavidR]

"Simon Smith" <[email protected]> wrote

> I'm new to cycling having just started riding a road bike with a
> campag setup after many years of not riding. Previously I had a Marin
> MTB back in the 1980's.
>
> I know I haven't fully got to grip with the bike yet but a couple of
> aspects I find very worrying :-
>
> 1. The brakes don't seem very effective.

<snip>

When it comes to the twisty stuff I am less confident with drop bars. From
what I notice of others (and occasionally read here), I don't think the
situation is unusual.

Maybe it is hand size. Drops don't give me any method of bracing myself
against my palms when I pull the levers and all the load goes on to my
thumbs. By comparison, on a flat bar, the prominent bony bit at the base of
the little finger makes a nice little wedge to take the body weight which
leaves the thumbs free just to oppose the lever load. Makes a lot of
difference.

However, as everybody else says, use your front brake.

 

[Chris Malcolm]

"Arthur Clune" <[email protected]> writes:

>Jon Senior <jon@restlesslemon_dot_co_dot_uk.remove> wrote:

>: Not strictly true. Gentle braking will leave enough traction for said
>: braking to bring the bike to a complete standstill. Not as quickly as
>: you could with the front, but you _can_ stop a bike with the rear brake.

>Not on a steep hill. Or at least I can't.

There's nothing better than the back brake for stopping you rolling
backwards on a steep hill. In fact some hills are steep enough that
when wet the front brake alone won't stop you sliding backwards. And
all kinds of vice versa of course.
--
Chris Malcolm [email protected] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]