Worth Upgrading? Peugeot Road Bike

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Shane Wolfe, Mar 19, 2005.

  1. 41

    41 Guest

    Shane Wolfe wrote:

    > http://homepage.mac.com/shanewolfe/PhotoAlbum17.html



    So, it's a UO-8. These remarks are based on the assumption it's in fine
    condition and has or will be cleaned, regreased and adjusted as
    necessary:

    The worst feature of these bikes is the steel cottered cranks, which
    are too difficult for the home mechanic to bother with servicing.
    Unfortunately new cranksets tend to be expensive. The second-worst
    feature is the steel rims, which are very slippery when wet. Still,
    people have used such things and gotten around these problems, and you
    will probably do that by not riding in the rain. The derailleurs are OK
    if you don't try to shift while applying power to the pedals. The
    brakes are excellent, and have a nice feel.

    These bikes are rather good looking and ride nicely, so I would
    recommend the following in order of importance:

    -New brake blocks (Kool Stop)
    -New tires (IRC Road Winner 27x1-1/8; or Panaracer Pasela as a second
    choice)

    If you feel like doing more, get a cheap new rear derailleur. If the
    saddle suits you, then you don't need to do anything more to get a lot
    of enjoyment out of it. If you start to love it and learn to maintain
    it yourself, then in addition replace the cranks and rims. That is all.
     


  2. On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 03:33:06 -0800, 41 wrote:

    > The worst feature of these bikes is the steel cottered cranks, which
    > are too difficult for the home mechanic to bother with servicing.


    Huh? The only thing difficult about cottered cranks is finding new cotter
    pins. Removing the pin, with a stout hammer and a drift, is trivial but
    usually destroys the pin. Putting a new one in is even easier. I would
    hammer it in a bit to seat it, rather than depending on tightening the
    nut, since it might work loose that way. But these things are hardly
    challenging. I bet Sheldon has a supply of cotter pins, but of course
    French sizes may be different.

    > Unfortunately new cranksets tend to be expensive. The second-worst
    > feature is the steel rims, which are very slippery when wet.


    I'd make the steel rims the worst feature.


    > will probably do that by not riding in the rain. The derailleurs are OK
    > if you don't try to shift while applying power to the pedals.


    The derailleurs are marginally OK, but much less dependable and
    sure-shifting than any derailleur made today.

    > The brakes
    > are excellent, and have a nice feel.


    I also disagree on that. I've used those brakes recently, and they are
    very spongy, difficult to keep properly adjusted, and do not stop any
    better than any sidepull.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | "Business!" cried the Ghost. "Mankind was my business. The
    _`\(,_ | common welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance,
    (_)/ (_) | and benevolence, were, all, my business. The dealings of my
    trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my
    business!" --Dickens, "A Christmas Carol"
     
  3. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    > On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 03:33:06 -0800, 41 wrote:
    >>The worst feature of these bikes is the steel cottered cranks, which
    >>are too difficult for the home mechanic to bother with servicing.


    David L. Johnson wrote:
    > Huh? The only thing difficult about cottered cranks is finding new cotter
    > pins. Removing the pin, with a stout hammer and a drift, is trivial but
    > usually destroys the pin. Putting a new one in is even easier. I would
    > hammer it in a bit to seat it, rather than depending on tightening the
    > nut, since it might work loose that way. But these things are hardly
    > challenging. I bet Sheldon has a supply of cotter pins, but of course
    > French sizes may be different.


    (41)>>Unfortunately new cranksets tend to be expensive. The
    second-worst
    >>feature is the steel rims, which are very slippery when wet.


    (DLJ)> I'd make the steel rims the worst feature.

    (41)>>will probably do that by not riding in the rain. The
    derailleurs are OK
    >>if you don't try to shift while applying power to the pedals.


    (DLJ)> The derailleurs are marginally OK, but much less
    dependable and
    > sure-shifting than any derailleur made today.


    (41)>>The brakes are excellent, and have a nice feel.

    (DLJ)> I also disagree on that. I've used those brakes
    recently, and they are
    > very spongy, difficult to keep properly adjusted, and do not stop any
    > better than any sidepull.


    The brakes are no better than a sidepull, sure. But no
    worse. Both Mafac brakes and Simlpex changers are perfectly
    rideable and do well with modern cable sets, proper setup.
    (clean and oil your wonderful Sedis 4D true roller chain!)

    I'm with David on those steel rims - glaring weak point, surely.

    Cotters do indeed come in sizes. 9.5mm=3/8' for BSC and both
    that and 9mm for various French & Italian cranks. There are
    yet others (8mm, etc). Peugeot pins are a unique deeply cut
    pattern with the thread off center, unlike any other I know.
    (we have 'em, made by Algi France).
    Although one may hammer a cotter, a Var press is the
    prefered installation tool, what with its 42cm of lever arm
    driving the 1cm side much more forcefully than any hammer
    -no matter how deftly swung. The nut merely keeps it from
    creeping after it's securely wedged in place.
    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  4. 41

    41 Guest

    David L. Johnson wrote:
    > On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 03:33:06 -0800, 41 wrote:


    > > The brakes
    > > are excellent, and have a nice feel.

    >
    > I also disagree on that. I've used those brakes recent ly, and they

    are
    > very spongy, difficult to keep properly adjusted, and do not stop any
    > better than any sidepull.


    First is a matter of whether we are talking about the same brake. There
    are CLB Racers that have popped up a lot on eBay which look the same
    but I believe have cast, not forged arms, and so are spongy. The Mafacs
    have forged arms, but there are several models in several arm lengths,
    some of which will be flexier than others. However the standard one on
    the UO-8 and countless other bikes, some of them the highest end, are
    very good. If you read reports from the day you will note that many
    people complained, upon the introduction of the Campagnolo sidepull,
    that the latter were not as powerful as Mafacs, and required a longer
    distance to stop- this was a matter of cable travel to pad movement
    ratio. Note also that the highest end builders mounted them on
    braze-ons, which reduced the flex even further. However even in their
    standard configuration, they are excellent and I don't find any
    noteworthy flex. Remember also there is a difference between short arm
    and long arm sidepulls, and these are long arm.

    Compared to Weinmanns, they require more cable pull and so have a
    lighter feel and give more power with a weaker grip. The levers have
    more travel so there is still plenty of clearance pad to rim. I don't
    understand the part about being hard to keep properly adjusted. Once
    the yoke is tightened you can basically leave it in that position for
    the life of the cable, especially because of the cantilever-style shoe
    mounting. That, along with the barrel adjuster, make them extremely
    easy to keep in adjustment.

    There's no magic to brakes and all of these good ones stop fine. They
    do however have different feels and different cable travel to arm
    movement ratios and reaches and some people like some better than
    others.

    ¨
     
  5. On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 04:33:28 -0800, 41 wrote:

    > First is a matter of whether we are talking about the same brake.


    We are.

    > some of which will be flexier than others. However the standard one on
    > the UO-8 and countless other bikes, some of them the highest end, are
    > very good. If you read reports from the day you will note that many
    > people complained, upon the introduction of the Campagnolo sidepull,
    > that the latter were not as powerful as Mafacs, and required a longer
    > distance to stop- this was a matter of cable travel to pad movement
    > ratio.


    Sorry, but no. I did not "read reports" from the day, I was racing then.
    People, myself included, lined up to pay absurd prices for Campy sidepulls
    (I recall them costing $70 -- 70 1971 dollars) in order to get rid of
    these Mafac racers and similar centerpulls. Actually, IMO Universals were
    a bit better, but still not as good. Campy sidepulls were the first
    decent sidepull brake, with plenty of strength. The amount of mechanical
    advantage depends on the brake and the lever. Using Campy levers as well
    worked very well.

    > Note also that the highest end builders mounted them on
    > braze-ons, which reduced the flex even further.


    Which higher-end builder was that? I think you are thinking of u-brakes,
    which came later and were not all that commonly used.

    > However even in their
    > standard configuration, they are excellent and I don't find any
    > noteworthy flex. Remember also there is a difference between short arm
    > and long arm sidepulls, and these are long arm.


    You mean centerpulls.
    >
    > Compared to Weinmanns, they require more cable pull and so have a
    > lighter feel and give more power with a weaker grip.


    Correspondingly, they needed to have a tighter pad clearance, so the
    wheels needed to be kept very true. Also, since they are poor at
    self-centering, they needed constant adjustment to keep from dragging on
    the rim.

    I've been there.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a
    _`\(,_ | conclusion. -- George Bernard Shaw
    (_)/ (_) |
     
  6. > > Note also that the highest end builders mounted them on
    > > braze-ons, which reduced the flex even further.


    "David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Which higher-end builder was that? I think you are thinking of
    > u-brakes, which came later and were not all that commonly used.


    French makers like Herse, SInger and Routens would do it. The result is
    effectively a U-brake.

    http://www.classicrendezvous.com/France/Herse/Herse1.htm

    James Thomson
     
  7. Jay Beattie

    Jay Beattie Guest

    "David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in
    message news:p[email protected]
    > On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 04:33:28 -0800, 41 wrote:
    >
    > > First is a matter of whether we are talking about the same

    brake.
    >
    > We are.
    >
    > > some of which will be flexier than others. However the

    standard one on
    > > the UO-8 and countless other bikes, some of them the highest

    end, are
    > > very good. If you read reports from the day you will note

    that many
    > > people complained, upon the introduction of the Campagnolo

    sidepull,
    > > that the latter were not as powerful as Mafacs, and required

    a longer
    > > distance to stop- this was a matter of cable travel to pad

    movement
    > > ratio.

    >
    > Sorry, but no. I did not "read reports" from the day, I was

    racing then.
    > People, myself included, lined up to pay absurd prices for

    Campy sidepulls
    > (I recall them costing $70 -- 70 1971 dollars) in order to get

    rid of
    > these Mafac racers and similar centerpulls. Actually, IMO

    Universals were
    > a bit better, but still not as good. Campy sidepulls were the

    first
    > decent sidepull brake, with plenty of strength. The amount of

    mechanical
    > advantage depends on the brake and the lever. Using Campy

    levers as well
    > worked very well.


    What a hoot -- I do not recall anyone complaining that the NR
    brakes were not as powerful as squeal-o-matic Mafac Racers. I do
    recall people buing those brake boosters and the newly-invented
    Mathauser finned pads in an effort to quiet down and firm-up
    Mafac brakes. I dumped my Mafacs but paid less than $70 for my
    NR brakes -- more like $60. Still a ridiculous price.

    > > Note also that the highest end builders mounted them on
    > > braze-ons, which reduced the flex even further.

    >
    > Which higher-end builder was that? I think you are thinking of

    u-brakes,
    > which came later and were not all that commonly used.


    None come to mind, certainly not any of the Italian builders --
    and none of the American builders that I recall in the late '60s
    forward.

    > > However even in their
    > > standard configuration, they are excellent and I don't find

    any
    > > noteworthy flex. Remember also there is a difference between

    short arm
    > > and long arm sidepulls, and these are long arm.

    >
    > You mean centerpulls.
    > >
    > > Compared to Weinmanns, they require more cable pull and so

    have a
    > > lighter feel and give more power with a weaker grip.

    >
    > Correspondingly, they needed to have a tighter pad clearance,

    so the
    > wheels needed to be kept very true. Also, since they are poor

    at
    > self-centering, they needed constant adjustment to keep from

    dragging on
    > the rim.
    >
    > I've been there.


    Why do we have to revere these things? They were fussy, hard to
    center, came with horrible pads, squealed, had too many parts and
    were made of pot metal. I did not like those half-hoods either.
    Sure, they can stop a bike, but a $30 pair of knock-off dual
    pivots from Nashbar with KoolStop pads undoubtedly can stop a
    bike better. Next we are going to idolize the Stronglight
    headset with four billion tiny French bearings, Normandy hubs,
    and, God forbid, the plastic Simplex derailleur. Good riddance
    all. -- Jay Beattie.
     
  8. Mark Janeba

    Mark Janeba Guest

    James Thomson wrote:
    >>>Note also that the highest end builders mounted them on
    >>>braze-ons, which reduced the flex even further.

    >
    > "David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>Which higher-end builder was that? I think you are thinking of
    >>u-brakes, which came later and were not all that commonly used.

    >
    > French makers like Herse, SInger and Routens would do it. The result is
    > effectively a U-brake.
    >
    > http://www.classicrendezvous.com/France/Herse/Herse1.htm


    But the brakes in that photo are most assuredly not Mafac "Racers" -
    check out the pad-to-arm mounting. They look more like a Weinmann
    centerpull, but it's hard to tell in that picture.

    BTW, I have a bike set up like the one in the photo - A Centurion
    Pro-Tour (1978) - it used the then-common Dia-Compe centerpulls but used
    pivots brazed to the frame. The pivots are *above* the rim, not below,
    so cantilevers wouldn't work; I've always wondered if the later U-brakes
    would be compatible with these pivot studs.

    Mark Janeba
     
  9. > > http://www.classicrendezvous.com/France/Herse/Herse1.htm

    "Mark Janeba" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > But the brakes in that photo are most assuredly not Mafac
    > "Racers" - check out the pad-to-arm mounting. They look
    > more like a Weinmann centerpull, but it's hard to tell in that
    > picture.


    Herse would often modify or manufacture parts - but I posted the link just
    as a general example of the type. Take a few minutes to search the web and
    I'm sure you'll find examples more to your liking.

    James Thomson
     
  10. A Muzi <[email protected]> writes:

    >> On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 03:33:06 -0800, 41 wrote:
    >>>The worst feature of these bikes is the steel cottered cranks, which
    >>>are too difficult for the home mechanic to bother with servicing.


    I have to agree with "41" about the biggest problems on these bikes :
    cottered cranks. On my 1972 raleigh grand prix, which had roughly the
    same chromed nervar cranks as an old peugeot, i was never able to
    drive the cotters in tight enough to achieve a proper fit once the
    cotters were removed.

    As a result, I ruined several cotter pins and was forced to purchase a
    Sugino MAXY crankset for $29.95 (the cheap one with the crank arm
    permanently affixed to the outside ring.)

    This brings up the problem of upgrading either a french bike or a
    low-end raleigh : the bottom bracket threads are weird. There are
    several solutions, but the cheapest one is probably to purchase a
    sugino bottom bracket spindle from sheldon or QBP for the new
    cotterless crankset. I was fortunate that a bottom bracket was
    included with my crankset, and I was able to use just the spindle in
    my old cups.

    The most flexible solution would be to use phil wood french threaded
    lockrings and then I believe that you can use any shimano or tange
    (tange is more durable since bearings are replaceable) square-tapered
    cartridge bottom bracket on the bike.

    - Don Gillies
    San Diego, CA
     
  11. "David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> writes:

    >On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 04:33:28 -0800, 41 wrote:


    >Sorry, but no. I did not "read reports" from the day, I was racing then.
    >People, myself included, lined up to pay absurd prices for Campy sidepulls
    >(I recall them costing $70 -- 70 1971 dollars) in order to get rid of
    >these Mafac racers and similar centerpulls. Actually, IMO Universals were
    >a bit better, but still not as good. Campy sidepulls were the first
    >decent sidepull brake, with plenty of strength. The amount of mechanical
    >advantage depends on the brake and the lever. Using Campy levers as well
    >worked very well.


    First of all, i have used weinmanns since 1973, and campagnolo brakes
    since 1980, and I know why racers lined up to buy the campagnolo brakes.

    You see, once everyone on the peloton downgrades their brakes, you are
    likely to get rear-ended when you slam on your powerful centerpulls
    too hard. And so downgrading was a necessity. Racers are very
    superstitious types. If it's campy, it must be good, right ??

    So when racers began downgrading from ugly centerpulls with superior
    stopping power to spectacularly beautiful sidepulls which have uneven
    mechanical advantage and which are thinner and flimsier than quality
    (e.g. weinmann) centerpulls, it became a safety issue and everyone in
    the peloton "followed the pack."

    been there, don't do that.

    - Don Gillies
    San Diego, CA
     
  12. Donald Gillies writes:

    >> Sorry, but no. I did not "read reports" from the day, I was racing
    >> then. People, myself included, lined up to pay absurd prices for
    >> Campy sidepulls (I recall them costing $70 -- 70 1971 dollars) in
    >> order to get rid of these Mafac racers and similar centerpulls.
    >> Actually, IMO Universals were a bit better, but still not as good.
    >> Campy sidepulls were the first decent sidepull brake, with plenty
    >> of strength. The amount of mechanical advantage depends on the
    >> brake and the lever. Using Campy levers as well worked very well.


    > First of all, I have used Weinmanns since 1973, and Campagnolo
    > brakes since 1980, and I know why racers lined up to buy the
    > Campagnolo brakes.


    That reason being that these brakes are rigid enough to not absorb a
    large part of hand lever stroke in flex and they have a good QR.
    Besides that they are easy to maintain. To make up for that,
    Campagnolo friction material easily collects grit.

    > You see, once everyone on the peloton downgrades their brakes, you
    > are likely to get rear-ended when you slam on your powerful
    > centerpulls too hard. And so downgrading was a necessity. Racers
    > are very superstitious types.


    Hold it. The problem is linearity and control, not stopping power
    which is seldom the limitation since any reasonably fit person can
    raise the rear wheel with a hard braking. The weak hand grip is a a
    recent arrival in bicycling as older riders learn how to ride in their
    later years.

    > If it's Campy, it must be good, right?


    Right... in the days when Tullio was at the helm.

    > So when racers began downgrading from ugly centerpulls with superior
    > stopping power to spectacularly beautiful sidepulls which have uneven
    > mechanical advantage and which are thinner and flimsier than quality
    > (e.g. Weinmann) centerpulls, it became a safety issue and everyone in
    > the peloton "followed the pack."


    I think you have that backwards. The centerpulls you mention have the
    same mechanical advantage of the Campagnolo Record sidepull brakes of
    1:1. The problem is that centerpull brakes have large cosine error
    and weep up into the tire with pad wear.

    > been there, don't do that.


    http://tinyurl.com/len5


    [email protected]
     
  13. JanJ

    JanJ New Member

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    My first post here:

    I'm a self taught Novice, Not an Expert, but I have some input that may help you. Neither Wife nor I are extreme riders.... We just go out for a nice leisurely bike ride (When we are not out on the motorcycle).

    Last Spring I was facing the same thing as you with 2 bikes... One Original owner, other from my mom, given to my wife in 1970-1.
    (From what I can tell -- 1980 Peugeot U09, and 1970 Gitane Grand Sport Mixte)... Neither are high end models, but they are 'ours' and work... So what to do?
    Neither had been serviced in years, other than tires and an occasional squirt of motorcycle oil. I did replace both wheel rims, steering head bearings, tires on the Peugeot, due to 'curb contact' in 1990-ish. Repair was successful, but we started riding motorcycles more than bikes in the 1980's... Since 1991 or so, they've been either in Garage or Basement... Until we decided to start bicycle rides this past spring. Gave them a shot of oil, new tires on one bike, and adjust brakes and went riding.
    There was some minor front wheel noise that I didn't understand on Peugeot, and we rode all summer like that.. Figuring we'd work on the bikes in the Off Season (Chicagoland).

    I had no idea what parts and maintenance issues existed, and eventually learned about the many non-standard parts sizes, prior to purchasing any replacement parts.... This was learned by going to multiple bike shops, and reading multiple threads on various sites, and posting questions, and receiving good information.... I also realized there were little, if any, old parts. Peugeot 'noise' was cone damage. Eventually got replacement Axle and cones for Peugeot front wheel off Ebay... But should I do other major hardware upgrade or remain stock??? What would new parts give me on lower end steel frame bikes?

    I eventually decided (based upon the non-standard French parts) to stay with existing parts, and just upgrade with a complete service upgrade: New bearings & lube on both bikes, along with an upgrade of the brake pads which were marginal and noisy....

    At end of riding season last fall I started in....

    New Bearings, Synthetic Lube & Chain oil, Better brake Pads were procured, and very through Chain cleaning was done. (Neither chain was stretched per Bike Shop). Repositioning of the seats & handlebars improved the comfort-ability of the ride over where they were before... I had no idea that there is a preferred seating position, and handlebars and seat placement were wrong on both bikes.. With First axle dis-assembly I learned about 'Loose Bearings'. Due to mistake on my part with dis-assembly, I did encounter issues with chain alignment, but others pointed me in correct direction, and it became a "Learning Experience". Cranks were different, Peugeot being bolted, Gitane being 'cotter-ed crank'. Brakes became a 'Learning Experience' as well. Peugeot had Weinmanns, Gitane had Mafac Racer, both types center pull.. Which necessitated two different alignment, and replacement brake pads were different, too. Found a frayed brake cord, and they were replaced too. Procedures, Procedures!

    Only major change I did was move the Shift Levers from down tube to Steering head on Gitane, as the wife wasn't comfortable bending over that far. My bike had stem shifters that She was more comfortable with them on the stem than down tube...

    My total expense has been ~ $110.00 (Specific Tools ~ $40, Bearings ~$30, Parts (Axle, cones) from various sources ~$40)....

    Both bikes are now done, and awaiting spring. I did get in a 5 min ride on each before the snow and salt hit the roads, and they both ride far better than before.

    Basically, the bikes remain " Relatively stock" and not too much $$ was spent..... and the ergonomics of the riding position improved the riding comfort.

    I was relatively lucky.... All the parts were there...

    Neither bikes are "High End" models, but they are 'ours', and work great for their age! :)!

    So an option might be to get it going with existing parts, keeping it relatively "Stock" and ride it as it is!
     
  14. Froze

    Froze Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    DO NOT REMOVE THE COTTER PIN WITH A HAMMER! Especially if it's stuck from years of never being removed.

    See this video for the most nondestructive way to remove the pin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQg89p6gcjk

    Doing it the way the video shows saves the pin too.
     
  15. JanJ

    JanJ New Member

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    I seem to remember that I found a video that says to loosen the nut on the pin, apply penetrating oil, wait a couple days, and tap pin backward with hammer, on the nut...

    It worked, and I was able to re-use both pins, too! Both bikes now have new bearings everywhere.

    Now that I've seen the video, I see he also tried, but didn't have enough threads on the nut...
     
  16. Lizel

    Lizel Active Member

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    It's always good to upgrade something, the question is if you have the money for it or not.
     
  17. westmixxin

    westmixxin New Member

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    Sounds like an incredibly interesting pieces of equipment an the idea of bringing such an already well wheeled machine really brings alive of inspiration to my mind hopefully I'll be able to afford the necessary equipment to accomplice this.
     
  18. paichuu

    paichuu New Member

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    OK sо I hаvе а Peugeot Galibier bike that consists of a Reynolds 301 steel frame.

    A whіlе back the original derailer gave uр the ghost whіlе riding, bending thе rear-wheel spokes іn the process. I wаs told it wаsn't worth re-truing thе rear wheel ѕo I bought a cheapo Raleigh wheel frоm the LBS. I аlso bought а nеw 7-speed freewheel and Shimano derailer whiсh I managed to install mysеlf (using the original chain) аnd haѕ been working great for аbоut a year now.

    The bike іѕ nice tо ride but I wouldn't mind upgrading the wheelset to a lighter аnd bettеr set that wоuld help with climbs and longer tours. I have in mind thе Mavic Aksium.

    I know thіѕ wheelset, along with mаnу оtherѕ usе thе modern dropout spacing оf 130mm. I аm pretty surе mу bike іѕ haѕ 126mm spacing. Being а steel frame I аm fairly confident i саn just squeeze а 130mm wheel in therе but my concern іs thе cassette size аnd chain.

    I аm undеr the impression that аn 8-speed cassette uѕeѕ а narrower chain. Would thiѕ work with mу original crankset аnd friction shifters? i wоuld rather stick wіth а 7-speed. Is it pоssіble tо find а semi-decent road 7-speed shimano cassette tо fit оn a Mavic Aksium аnd ѕtill uѕe thе slightly wider chain?

    Any advice greatly appreciated....
     
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