Would I be faster if....

Discussion in 'Recumbent bicycles' started by Cletus D . Lee, Mar 23, 2003.

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  1. Yesterday, I rode for 50 miles. The first 40 miles were at a pretty good pace and I averaged just
    over 18mph for that distance and 16.8 over all. I even took advantage of an impromptu pace line that
    formed in our group that lasted until about 10 miles into the ride.

    Would I possibly be faster if I removed the fenders, Midship rack and rear HT rack from my Bacchetta
    Giro? I could also replace the Vred S- Lick on the front with a skinner tire Do you think it would
    help? It is a big hassle to remove all these things to go fast. But I do like the going fast. I also
    like the Giro for Commuting and I have it set up for touring just like I want it for a weekend trip
    later this Spring.

    SideNote: Do not let two attorneys get side by side at the front of a double pace line. Yesterday in
    our imprompu pace line, we were managing 22-24 mph. Two of the guys in our group are lawyers and
    started 'talking shop' Eventually, these two guts worked their way to the front and I am sitting
    just behind them chatting with the guy beside me. I let our pace get down to 19 before I felt the
    need to say to my friend beside me in a loud voice "Remind me not to let two attorneys get side by
    side at the front of the pace line."

    --
    Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
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  2. Ben Fox

    Ben Fox Guest

    Less weight equals more speed. I use a Rans aero bag on my P-38 ,no racks ,no fenders. I have Conti
    tires on it.It's much faster than my Stratus set up for touing with a homemade aluminum rear
    rack,trunk bag ,fenders and Marathon tires. If you are averaging the kind of speeds you say on a
    Giro that's damn good as i was very slow on the one I had. I would think your P-38 would be faster
    if it was stripped down for speed. As far as lawyers go I sometimes ride with one, but he never
    talks shop,just Bents,Bents and more Bents! Ben fox

    "Cletus D. Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Yesterday, I rode for 50 miles. The first 40 miles were at a pretty good pace and I averaged just
    > over 18mph for that distance and 16.8 over all. I even took advantage of an impromptu pace line
    > that formed in our group that lasted until about 10 miles into the ride.
    >
    > Would I possibly be faster if I removed the fenders, Midship rack and rear HT rack from my
    > Bacchetta Giro? I could also replace the Vred S- Lick on the front with a skinner tire Do you
    > think it would help? It is a big hassle to remove all these things to go fast. But I do like the
    > going fast. I also like the Giro for Commuting and I have it set up for touring just like I want
    > it for a weekend trip later this Spring.
    >
    > SideNote: Do not let two attorneys get side by side at the front of a double pace line. Yesterday
    > in our imprompu pace line, we were managing 22-24 mph. Two of the guys in our group are lawyers
    > and started 'talking shop' Eventually, these two guts worked their way to the front and I am
    > sitting just behind them chatting with the guy beside me. I let our pace get down to 19 before I
    > felt the need to say to my friend beside me in a loud voice "Remind me not to let two attorneys
    > get side by side at the front of the pace line."
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    > - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  3. Hmmm, Al and I rode a 100 mile + metric century last Sunday. I was prepared for a metric and I asked
    Al at the 55 mile point how far this metric was and he said "Trust me". At 60 miles we were
    averaging 17 mph. About the weight thing. Al's Corsa is heavier than my AERO and he was saying that
    since he was beating me on the few climbs available, CroMo must be superior to Ti and ditto on the
    flats so weight means nothing. Or could it be that Al has four times the milage than me this year,
    not counting the indoor trainer stuff. All in all I ended up with 109.89 miles and averaged 15.77
    mph. Not bad since I had not ridden but about 154 miles prior this year and my longest ride was 54
    miles. When I get to riding as much as AL we are very evenly matched and its at that point that the
    bent I ride and the small equipment differences and the way my AERO is set up for aerodynamic
    advantage actually makes a small difference....well sometimes. At the moment his motor is better
    than mine. He walked away from me in the last 23 miles of the ride. His total miles was 113 and I'm
    sure his average musta been 16 mph or better. I can not tell you how important it is to have a
    regular group or a single regular riding friend is when it comes to improving overall performance.
    Especially when they are better riders.

    Jude....///Bacchetta AERO St. Michaels and Tilghman Island.. Maryland Wheel Doctor Cycle and Sports,
    Inc 1-800-586-6645 "Cletus D. Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Yesterday, I rode for 50 miles. The first 40 miles were at a pretty good pace and I averaged just
    > over 18mph for that distance and 16.8 over all. I even took advantage of an impromptu pace line
    > that formed in our group that lasted until about 10 miles into the ride.
    >
    > Would I possibly be faster if I removed the fenders, Midship rack and rear HT rack from my
    > Bacchetta Giro? I could also replace the Vred S- Lick on the front with a skinner tire Do you
    > think it would help? It is a big hassle to remove all these things to go fast. But I do like the
    > going fast. I also like the Giro for Commuting and I have it set up for touring just like I want
    > it for a weekend trip later this Spring.
    >
    > SideNote: Do not let two attorneys get side by side at the front of a double pace line. Yesterday
    > in our imprompu pace line, we were managing 22-24 mph. Two of the guys in our group are lawyers
    > and started 'talking shop' Eventually, these two guts worked their way to the front and I am
    > sitting just behind them chatting with the guy beside me. I let our pace get down to 19 before I
    > felt the need to say to my friend beside me in a loud voice "Remind me not to let two attorneys
    > get side by side at the front of the pace line."
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    > - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  4. John Foltz

    John Foltz Guest

    Extra weight is OK, as long as it helps aerodynamics. Otherwise, ditch it. Fenders hurt (they are
    wider than tires and have more frontal area.) Ditto the midship rack, it's just tubing hanging in
    the wind. Skinnier tires will also help, especially in the front. Also, I've found covering the
    spokes is a huge help.

    What Jude said about riding with a good group is true. Today was my third ride of the season. I was
    doing some speed work with the 'animals' of the club. Short stretches at 24-27 mph. Our overall
    average for 29 miles was 20.4 mph. Last week we did 52 miles and averaged 18.8 mph.
    --

    John Foltz --- O _ Baron --- _O _ V-Rex 24/63 --- _\\/\-%)
    _________(_)`=()___________________(_)= (_)_____
     
  5. John, A bit of weight is ok but the best of both worlds is well best. Lighter and more aero.
    However, Given a choice aerodynamics wins. So yea ditch the fenders. I can't tell you how many times
    I have a real nice bent or df in for repairs with a bag on it that weighs more than the bike. Its
    amazing what some people will carry. Get a hernia just putting it on the workstand. One time I
    looked inside and saw a tennis ball...well it really was orange...from a century a year or so
    ago...so I was told by the owner.

    Jude....///Bacchetta AERO St. Michaels and Tilghman Island.. Maryland Wheel Doctor Cycle and Sports,
    Inc 1-800-586-6645 "John Foltz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Extra weight is OK, as long as it helps aerodynamics. Otherwise, ditch it. Fenders hurt (they are
    > wider than tires and have more frontal area.) Ditto the midship rack, it's just tubing hanging in
    > the wind. Skinnier tires will also help, especially in the front. Also, I've found covering the
    > spokes is a huge help.
    >
    > What Jude said about riding with a good group is true. Today was my third ride of the season. I
    > was doing some speed work with the 'animals' of the club. Short stretches at 24-27 mph. Our
    > overall average for 29 miles was 20.4 mph. Last week we did 52 miles and averaged 18.8 mph.
    > --
    >
    > John Foltz --- O _ Baron --- _O _ V-Rex 24/63 --- _\\/\-%)
    > _________(_)`=()___________________(_)= (_)_____
     
  6. Tom Sherman

    Tom Sherman Guest

    "Jude T. McGloin" wrote:
    >
    > John, A bit of weight is ok but the best of both worlds is well best. Lighter and more aero.
    > However, Given a choice aerodynamics wins. So yea ditch the fenders. I can't tell you how many
    > times I have a real nice bent or df in for repairs with a bag on it that weighs more than the
    > bike. Its amazing what some people will carry....

    I have found that all the laughing and criticism of carrying "unnecessary" items stops when someone
    has a problem on the road and the solution is one of the "unnecessary" items I am carrying.

    Tom Sherman - Various HPV's Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
     
  7. R2D2

    R2D2 New Member

    Joined:
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    Hey there Cletus, I've looked to your posts for advice myself, as you are Quite prolific. :) Thanks.

    I try to keep my bikes as lean as I can, as I need as much help as possible in the speed department (in order to keep up with my Lawyer wife =) ).

    Three things that would help: Faster Tires/wheels, Lighter weight/better aerodynamics, Better drivetrain efficiency.

    I immediately put some Continental Grand Prix's on my Giro (like Ben here). I just love those tires. They have a great combination of features: Light, Fast, Sure Footed (for a racing tire), Puncture resistant, great handling, very nice ride.

    Front: 28 - 406 (20 x 1 1/8)
    Rear: 25 - 559 (26 x 1)
    120 PSI

    I can still ride the state trails with them without any problems(packed gravel or screened limestone).

    If you want to go faster yet, I'd recommend the Michelin Axial Pro or Axial Pro Light tire for the rear (higher pressure, great handling, not quite as smooth, not quite as puncture-resistant)

    I'm looking to upgrade my wheels in the near future (perhaps a Mavic CrossMax on the rear, AeroHeat/Dura-Ace on the front)

    If you're not on a major tour, I'd recommend sporting just the Rans large seatback bag. It holds a lot, and fits right on the Giro seat. It's completely out of the windstream too. Take the rest off for now.

    About all you can do to improve your drivetrain efficiency (without replacing or spending a Lot), would be to swap out the Bottom Bracket for a high-end model. This is usually one of the most cost-effective upgrades on any bike. You'll lose a bit of weight and gain some stiffness (stiffness is an oft-overlooked factor). (You've already gone clipless too, right?)

    Well, hope you gain your 2MPH!
    R2



    >Cletus D. wrote:
    Would I possibly be faster if I removed the fenders, Midship rack and rear HT rack from my Bacchetta
    Giro? I could also replace the Vred S- Lick on the front with a skinner tire Do you think it would
    help? It is a big hassle to remove all these things to go fast. But I do like the going fast. I also
    like the Giro for Commuting and I have it set up for touring just like I want it for a weekend trip
    later this Spring.
     
  8. Jay

    Jay Guest

    >Cletus D. Lee at [email protected] wrote on 3/23/03 3:41 PM: <snip> Would I possibly be faster if I
    >removed the fenders, Midship rack and rear HT rack from my Bacchetta Giro? I could also replace the
    >Vred S- Lick on the front with a skinner tire Do you think it would help? It is a big hassle to
    >remove all these things to go fast. But I do like the going fast. I also like the Giro for
    >Commuting and I have it set up for touring just like I want it for a weekend trip later this
    >Spring. <snip>

    Being a transportational cyclist, I have loads of functional stuff on my trikes. When I have
    raced I removed panniers, rack bag, tools, rack, generator, headlight, taillight and fenders- it
    was shocking how light the trikes were! Try removing the accessories and weighing them and decide
    for yourself.
     
  9. Jay

    Jay Guest

    >Jude T. McGloin at [email protected] wrote on 3/23/03 9:18 PM: A bit of weight is ok but the
    >best of both worlds is well best. Lighter and more aero. However, Given a choice aerodynamics wins.
    >So yea ditch the fenders. I can't tell you how many times I have a real nice bent or df in for
    >repairs with a bag on it that weighs more than the bike. Its amazing what some people will carry.
    >Get a hernia just putting it on the workstand.<snip>

    All the crap I carry everyday plus groceries, lumber and shopping make for potential training. When
    I drop that extra 50 pounds of bike accessories and cargo, while racing I feel like I am riding a 5
    pound bike.
     
  10. Jay

    Jay Guest

    > "Jude T. McGloin" wrote:
    >> A bit of weight is ok but the best of both worlds is well best. Lighter and more aero. However,
    >> Given a choice aerodynamics wins. So yea ditch the fenders. I can't tell you how many times I
    >> have a real nice bent or df in for repairs with a bag on it that weighs more than the bike. Its
    >> amazing what some people will carry....

    >Tom Sherman at [email protected] wrote: I have found that all the laughing and criticism of
    >carrying "unnecessary" items stops when someone has a problem on the road and the solution is one
    >of the "unnecessary" items I am carrying.

    <smirk> About twice a week I play pitcrew supply for either a person who is riding a unmaintained
    piece of crap or a person with a superior attitude but no bike tools or supplies. "Laugh at my
    'dollar store' tube patch kit- and you will walk 10 kilometres home"
     
  11. Again "Each to their own". I sorta knew that I would get a buncha crap for my anti carrying a buncha
    crap post. So be it! I carry this behind the seat on my Aero. Two tubes, two co2 carts, Topeak
    Alien, flixstick, a few glueless patches,and small amount of duct tape. Oh yea, TP in a ziploc
    stuffed down the deraileur tube. Water and GA the amount based on availability on the ride. I rarely
    ride on crap roads or in urban areas. If I am entering the unknown zone I might add a folding tire
    and a topeak Morph pump. Prior to benting I rode sewups and carried even less. Now that said. I'm
    about to ride 15 miles to my shop on my bikeE AT. Even my paranoid tool box carring friends call it
    "Totally Tacky" three headlights, fenders, fairing, underseat panniers (huge old grey Cannondale
    side loaders) homemade rear rack complete with rack trunk, functional stoplights and directionals.
    One can own a sports car and a pickup ya know.

    Jude....///Bacchetta AERO///bikeE AT St. Michaels and Tilghman Island.. Maryland Wheel Doctor Cycle
    and Sports, Inc 1-800-586-6645 "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]e.com> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Jude T. McGloin" wrote:
    > >
    > > John, A bit of weight is ok but the best of both worlds is well best. Lighter and more aero.
    > > However, Given a choice aerodynamics wins. So yea ditch the fenders. I can't tell you how many
    > > times I have a real nice bent or df in
    for
    > > repairs with a bag on it that weighs more than the bike. Its amazing
    what
    > > some people will carry....
    >
    > I have found that all the laughing and criticism of carrying "unnecessary" items stops when
    > someone has a problem on the road and the solution is one of the "unnecessary" items I am
    > carrying.
    >
    > Tom Sherman - Various HPV's Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
     
  12. Derek Swift

    Derek Swift Guest

    > Would I possibly be faster if I removed the fenders, Midship rack and rear HT rack from my
    > Bacchetta Giro?

    I suppose it would make a difference if speed is all you are interested in on your bike. I prefer to
    tour so those items are necessities.

    Derek
     
  13. Cletus Lee

    Cletus Lee Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >
    > Less weight equals more speed. I use a Rans aero bag on my P-38 ,no racks ,no fenders. I have
    > Conti tires on it.It's much faster than my Stratus set up for touing with a homemade aluminum rear
    > rack,trunk bag ,fenders and Marathon tires. If you are averaging the kind of speeds you say on a
    > Giro that's damn good as i was very slow on the one I had.

    The dilema I face is in having two touring bikes. The Voyager packs for travel. The Giro was made
    to hang a Midship rack and makes an excellent commuter bike. It is a difficult choice each
    morning trying to decide which bike to ride to work. It is another difficult choice for my
    Saturday fun ride.

    I could remove the fenders, rack etc. from the Voyager. But my next tour by air will have me packing
    those parts and the Voyager.

    I have always been about even in overall speed with the Voyager and the Giro. And this was before I
    added fenders and Midship to the Giro. Swapping out the Kenda Kwest for better tires made a minor
    difference. Replacing the stock rear wheel with a Chris King hub and Velocity Razor rims made no
    discernable improvement. But generally within the std deviation of day to day rides, the Giro still
    is just about as fast as the P-38 Voyager.

    > I would think your P-38 would be faster if it was stripped down for speed.

    But then this may be also true for the Giro.

    Of course, it is kinda fun to watch these ultra light DFs struggle to keep up with my 33+ lb Giro
    with fenders and racks.

    > As far as lawyers go I sometimes ride with one, but he never talks shop,just Bents,Bents and more
    > Bents! Ben fox
    >
    >

    --

    Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  14. Derek Swift <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > Would I possibly be faster if I removed the fenders, Midship rack and rear HT rack from my
    > > Bacchetta Giro?
    >
    > I suppose it would make a difference if speed is all you are interested in on your bike. I prefer
    > to tour so those items are necessities.
    >
    > Derek

    Clip-on fenders (road or MTB)can be easily removed when you need more speed. of course it will
    rain that day.
     
  15. Jerry Rhodes

    Jerry Rhodes Guest

    Cletus D. Lee <[email protected]> wrote in message

    > Would I possibly be faster if I removed the fenders, Midship rack and rear HT rack from my
    > Bacchetta Giro?

    Surely you jest...................

    Jerry
     
  16. John Riley

    John Riley Guest

    Cletus D. Lee <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>... [...]
    > Would I possibly be faster if I removed the fenders, Midship rack and rear HT rack from my
    > Bacchetta Giro? I could also replace the Vred S- Lick on the front with a skinner tire Do you
    > think it would help? It is a big hassle to remove all these things to go fast. But I do like the
    > going fast. I also like the Giro for Commuting and I have it set up for touring just like I want
    > it for a weekend trip later this Spring.
    [...]

    I don't know if you would be faster, but "sometimes you feel like a nut; sometimes you don't" as the
    advert goes. This is how we end up with more than one bike. It isn't practical to change all that
    stuff twice every weekend. As someone else suggested, what about the P-38 for the slimmed down
    style? Otherwise, you might just have to get another Giro ;-)

    John Riley
     
  17. Cletus Lee

    Cletus Lee Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > Cletus D. Lee <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >
    > > Would I possibly be faster if I removed the fenders, Midship rack and rear HT rack from my
    > > Bacchetta Giro?
    >
    > Surely you jest...................

    Actually, no. All the improvements to date have either canceled each other (wheels vs. fenders/rack)
    or there is negligible difference. Last summer, I averaged well over 20 mph for the first half of a
    century on my Lightning. It had fenders, rear rack and started out with over 6 L of water. So,
    unless someone can give me a compelling reason, I think I'll keep the fenders etc.

    --

    Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  18. John W

    John W Guest

    Obvious answer is two bikes. One setup for touring/commuting and the other for speed. I have a
    Stratus with fenders, rack, bags, tools, tire pump, kickstand, Marathon tires, etc. for
    touring/commuting. My Lightning Stealth is setup for speed. When I rode DF's I had the same setup. A
    Trek 520 touring bike for touring/commuting and a Trek carbon fiber for speed. There is no such
    thing as a do-it-all bike.

    John

    "Cletus D. Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Yesterday, I rode for 50 miles. The first 40 miles were at a pretty good pace and I averaged just
    > over 18mph for that distance and 16.8 over all. I even took advantage of an impromptu pace line
    > that formed in our group that lasted until about 10 miles into the ride.
    >
    > Would I possibly be faster if I removed the fenders, Midship rack and rear HT rack from my
    > Bacchetta Giro? I could also replace the Vred S- Lick on the front with a skinner tire Do you
    > think it would help? It is a big hassle to remove all these things to go fast. But I do like the
    > going fast. I also like the Giro for Commuting and I have it set up for touring just like I want
    > it for a weekend trip later this Spring.
    >
    > SideNote: Do not let two attorneys get side by side at the front of a double pace line. Yesterday
    > in our imprompu pace line, we were managing 22-24 mph. Two of the guys in our group are lawyers
    > and started 'talking shop' Eventually, these two guts worked their way to the front and I am
    > sitting just behind them chatting with the guy beside me. I let our pace get down to 19 before I
    > felt the need to say to my friend beside me in a loud voice "Remind me not to let two attorneys
    > get side by side at the front of the pace line."
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    > - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  19. Bob Wand

    Bob Wand Guest

    > > Cletus D. Lee <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >
    > > > Would I possibly be faster if I removed the fenders, Midship rack and rear HT rack from my
    > > > Bacchetta Giro?

    Leave the P-38 and Giro like the are and get an Aero to ride with the group on weekends.
     
  20. Daniel Payne

    Daniel Payne Guest

    On 24-Mar-2003, Cletus Lee <[email protected]> wrote:

    > The dilema I face is in having two touring bikes. The Voyager packs for travel. The Giro was made
    > to hang a Midship rack and makes an excellent commuter bike. It is a difficult choice each
    > morning trying to decide which bike to ride to work. It is another difficult choice for my
    > Saturday fun ride.
    >
    > I

    Clee, how about a third bike set up for recreational, fast rides? You know, you can never have too
    many bikes

    Daniel who only has had one [ 1 ] recumbent.
     
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