Would like to get some expert opinions

[RapDaddyo]

Paul:

How did you do in the crit? I'm also curious as to what your NP for the TT yesterday? BTW, my teammate won the 4/5 TT! Good luck in the CR tomorrow.

Cheers,

Ethan

Hey Ethan, I'm not much of a crit man and just wanted to sit in and get a feel for the pace. I got caught behind a couple of guys at a key move 5 mins from the finish and didn't feel like closing the gap alone (wanted to save myself for the RR tomorrow) so didn't finish with the lead group. Power was 302/324 (AP/NP). Don't know my NP for the TT because my computer didn't save the data for some reason. It wouldn't have mattered. I rode my road bike without aero bars or wheels, and my training tires. I was a pretty funny sight out there amongst all those high-tech bikes. I have a 2nd computer (fortunately) and my backup works fine. Unfortunately, I caught a cold and feel like sh*t. Tomorrow's going to be an ordeal. I don't really care what happens. I just plan to attack on the last climb if my legs still work by then. Hell, I didn't plan to race again until this spring/summer, and was concerned early on whether one year was enough time to get in shape. So, as far as I'm concerned this is just late-stage training. I'll be happy if I'm not last. Are you racing? If so, good luck.

 

[stevevinck]

I have already seen plenty of improvement since I started with him. I have also seen how the people that have worked with him have improved over the years. I trust him.

Long slow rides are a big part of base aren't they?

Yes they are , and should not be ignored. I've been following this forum for a couple of weeks and it seems some want to go as hard as they can in "zone 4" and have higher treshold power
What about 200 km races ?? you will need the zone 1 training a lot (IMHO )
I hardly go over hartrate 145 (zone 2 for me) but will do 1000km/month for the moment my treshold power is at +- 300 watt

 

[bikeguy]

I rode my road bike without aero bars or wheels, and my training tires. I was a pretty funny sight out there amongst all those high-tech bikes. I have a 2nd computer (fortunately) and my backup works fine. Unfortunately, I caught a cold and feel like sh*t. Tomorrow's going to be an ordeal. I don't really care what happens.

You're an odd fellow you, you paid I don't know how much for a powertap and suitable wheel but you use standard wheels and tires in a TT. I've done some research and there's quite a difference in rolling resistance between tires. If you were using a kevlar puncture resistant tire then you'd get a considerable boost in going to something like a Vittoria Corsa Evo CX or Michelin Pro race 2 (or light), apparently two tires with some of the lowest rolling resistance around. In drafting, rr counts even more, so get some good tires and start kicking some ass!

-Bikeguy

 

[whoawhoa]

whoawhoa - Looking at your past posts it doesn't look like you agree with much of anything in the way of how I have been training. Just a quick glance and it looks like you don't agree with base miles or gym time for training. Is this correct? If so then I guess it is safe to say that you don't agree with Friel's methods either which is what my training is based on. The past few months I have spent about three days a week at the gym. The past couple of weeks we have started phasing the gym time out. I have also recently started plyometrics. Now that is a workout!

I have been with my coach since September and it is amazing how much I have improved in this amount of time. There is no one method that is going to work for everyone. However his method's (and friel's) do seem to work for me.

I'm definately looking forward to the middle of April, the start of my season.

You are right, I do not agree with many of Friel's ideas about training. Keep in mind that I am not arrogant enough to believe that I am somehow smarter than him or have more experience. However, most of my opinions have been developed by reading those of experienced coaches and excercise physiologists who put a heavy emphasis on fact and having research/scientific evidence to back there claims up. And this has led me to doubt the need for base training, the benefits of weight lifting, and the effects of "pedaling drills." I will not, however, tell you your coach is wrong or that you should do something different. Keep in mind, however, that much of the advice on this forum will differ from that of your coach. I think you should browse previous threads and develop your own opinions on weightlifting, base, pedaling technique etc. But if you are improving, and you like what you're doing, then by all means, continue on. Because that's the whole point, right?

 

[LowCel]

You are right, I do not agree with many of Friel's ideas about training. Keep in mind that I am not arrogant enough to believe that I am somehow smarter than him or have more experience. However, most of my opinions have been developed by reading those of experienced coaches and excercise physiologists who put a heavy emphasis on fact and having research/scientific evidence to back there claims up. And this has led me to doubt the need for base training, the benefits of weight lifting, and the effects of "pedaling drills." I will not, however, tell you your coach is wrong or that you should do something different. Keep in mind, however, that much of the advice on this forum will differ from that of your coach. I think you should browse previous threads and develop your own opinions on weightlifting, base, pedaling technique etc. But if you are improving, and you like what you're doing, then by all means, continue on. Because that's the whole point, right?

Yup, that's the point. Thanks for your explanation. I guess it all comes down to the different strokes for different folks thing.

 

[RapDaddyo]

You're an odd fellow you, you paid I don't know how much for a powertap and suitable wheel but you use standard wheels and tires in a TT. I've done some research and there's quite a difference in rolling resistance between tires. If you were using a kevlar puncture resistant tire then you'd get a considerable boost in going to something like a Vittoria Corsa Evo CX or Michelin Pro race 2 (or light), apparently two tires with some of the lowest rolling resistance around. In drafting, rr counts even more, so get some good tires and start kicking some ass!

LOL. Thanks for the suggestion. I do appreciate it, and if you can point to me to any hard, independent research and data (excluding that published by the wheel manufacturers themselves) I would really appreciate that. I'm sure some here who know my attention to detail are chuckling, because I actually know a great deal about all the equipment one would get to go fast in a TT, including wheels and tires, and don't forget pacing -- I can't imagine this is a surprise. I just haven't finished my evaluation of certain pieces of the puzzle such as TT frames, so I haven't put my TT rig together yet. And, all my wheels will have PT SL 2.4 GHz hubs, so I have to wait a few more months to build my wheels. Once I do, plus do some position testing and complete my work on optimal pacing, yes, I will be a bit faster in a TT. But, I won't really need a race to test my TT speed. That's the cool thing about TTs. One can develop and test TT performance any time. Anyway, there's plenty of time. The first TT I care about is not until May 13th. That will probably be the first time I bring my full arsenal to a course (at least officially). Right now, I'm working on my engine. I want lots of rolling resistance and aerodynamic resistance. In fact, I'd love to have a front training wheel with a custom hub that I could dial in a little resistance (e.g., 10-100w, in 10w increments). Know where I can get one?

 

[Thorman]

Yup, that's the point. Thanks for your explanation. I guess it all comes down to the different strokes for different folks thing.

As you're finding out when you ask a question here you'll get serveral different answers. For the last 4 seasons I used the Friel methodology and saw significant improvements in my peformance progressing from cat 5 to 3 and even winning a few races along the way.

This year after spending a lot of time educating myself in the principles of exercise physiology (on this forum, pubmed studies, topica wattage, etc.) I decided to fly solo and build my own plan.

My performance this year is significantly better than last year (my first year using a power meter) based on interval power and testing I've done and that is despite my total hours being down by 13% (although my cumulative TSS is up a similar amount).

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that even though one is improving it doesn't mean the plan you're working to should be considered optimal. The trick in this whole training plan development process is finding which plan will deliver the best results, which is no easy task. This is perhaps the "art" of coaching, which can take years of working with someone, that is if it's even possible to know when you've achieved peak performance.

Now that would make for an interesting topic...how do you know when you've achieved all that you can?

 

[whoawhoa]

Yes they are , and should not be ignored. I've been following this forum for a couple of weeks and it seems some want to go as hard as they can in "zone 4" and have higher treshold power
What about 200 km races ?? you will need the zone 1 training a lot (IMHO )

You may need low-intensity training to be able to ride 200 races (which very few amatuers need to do) but it's a high functional threshold power that will let you "race," that is, go hard over the duration of the race.

I hardly go over hartrate 145 (zone 2 for me) but will do 1000km/month for the moment my treshold power is at +- 300 watt

Let's not start a # dropping war, now. BTW, many posters here do that much or significantly more volume while including plenty of l3-l6 work.

 

[RapDaddyo]

But if you are improving, and you like what you're doing, then by all means, continue on. Because that's the whole point, right?

That's the problem with anecdotal training evidence. When one is significantly undertrained and follows almost any training regimen that calls for some time at power levels that result in an increase in power (e.g., L4-L7 in our language), then power predictably increases. The cyclist (and maybe even the coach) then reach the conclusion that the improvement is the result of the specific training regimen. What they don't realize is that any of literally hundreds of workout "recipes" would have produced similar results. This is why I really only want to know one thing about someone's training regimen -- how many minutes per week of L4-L7 intervals, by level. I'm not proclaiming myself as an expert at training regimens, but I am not persuaded that all the rest of the detail of one's training regimen matters, including my own. There's a corollary here in SAT testing (maybe of interest to you soon) and a whole industry has been built on the back of a fallacy. Here's the way it works. A prospective college applicant takes a practice test, then follows the training program of test prep company XYZ and takes another practice test. Scores go up ~100 points. The test prep company takes full credit for the higher scores as the result of their "scientifically developed, optimal training program." What they don't tell the student is that if you simply take a practice test, do any sort of work on fundamentals and then take the test again, your scores go up by ~100 points. Magic!

 

[whoawhoa]

That's the problem with anecdotal training evidence. When one is significantly undertrained and follows almost any training regimen that calls for some time at power levels that result in an increase in power (e.g., L4-L7 in our language), then power predictably increases. The cyclist (and maybe even the coach) then reach the conclusion that the improvement is the result of the specific training regimen. What they don't realize is that any of literally hundreds of workout "recipes" would have produced similar results. This is why I really only want to know one thing about someone's training regimen -- how many minutes per week of L4-L7 intervals, by level. I'm not proclaiming myself as an expert at training regimens, but I am not persuaded that all the rest of the detail of one's training regimen matters, including my own.

I agree, I was just trying not to jump on the OP's training method. If he's happy with his program, I think it makes sense to stay on it, until he decides he'll be better off with something else.

 

[Old Junker]

If you get a hub with a grease port like the campy hub and load them up with grease they will not roll as well when OVERGREASED therefore increasing rr but what a mess it will make, also not very good for the hub, just try to spin it in your hands , or just try a mountan/cross bike tire and change your road fork

 

[stevevinck]

You may need low-intensity training to be able to ride 200 races (which very few amatuers need to do) but it's a high functional threshold power that will let you "race," that is, go hard over the duration of the race.


Let's not start a # dropping war, now. BTW, many posters here do that much or significantly more volume while including plenty of l3-l6 work.

you say plenty off , can you put a percentage on that ?? If I have 8 hours of training time how would I divide ; 75% l1-l2 and 25 %l3-l4 (I'm no racer but would like to improve my capability to ride harder for a longer time say 130 km in 4 hours ; solo)

 

[whoawhoa]

you say plenty off , can you put a percentage on that ?? If I have 8 hours of training time how would I divide ; 75% l1-l2 and 25 %l3-l4 (I'm no racer but would like to improve my capability to ride harder for a longer time say 130 km in 4 hours ; solo)

Personally, I think RDO's suggestions are good, that is, 3-6 hours a week in levels 4-6. How you personally would divide is up to what you're schedule is. Are you doing long rides on the weekend with short sessiosn during the week? My personal rule is that 1.5 hours or less to train always means specific intervals, usually more like 2-2.5.

 

[RapDaddyo]

I agree, I was just trying not to jump on the OP's training method. If he's happy with his program, I think it makes sense to stay on it, until he decides he'll be better off with something else.

I understand. FWIW, I'll make one suggestion about commenting on someone's training regimen. Strip away all the detail and look at the poster's core work in (what we believe to be) the important training levels. If you feel he could achieve his objectives with a bit more time at, say, L4, then suggest that he increase his L4 minutes. Forget about what he's doing that you think is a waste of time, because to offer that opinion immediately turns the guy off and he doesn't hear what you think he could be doing, he only hears that you don't like what he is doing. IOW, as soon as he hears the negative, his ears close and he fails to hear the positive suggestion. But, what you really want him to get is the affirmative suggestion. So, drop the negative and go right to the jugular -- what he could be doing that he is not doing that would help him. Anyway, duty calls -- I have to go and have my ass kicked by those salty SoCal masters. Wish me luck.

 

[RapDaddyo]

If you get a hub with a grease port like the campy hub and load them up with grease they will not roll as well when OVERGREASED therefore increasing rr but what a mess it will make, also not very good for the hub, just try to spin it in your hands , or just try a mountan/cross bike tire and change your road fork

What I'd really like is a hub where I could vary the resistance before a ride (e.g., a club ride). I've looked a bit into the hubs they use to power headlights and such, but most of them are rear hubs and I want this on the front. Any engineers out there want to tell me how to do that? Oh, and I'd like for it to be consistent (in watts) from ride to ride and not change when it heats up from rolling.

 

[rmur17]

What I'd really like is a hub where I could vary the resistance before a ride (e.g., a club ride). I've looked a bit into the hubs they use to power headlights and such, but most of them are rear hubs and I want this on the front. Any engineers out there want to tell me how to do that? Oh, and I'd like for it to be consistent (in watts) from ride to ride and not change when it heats up from rolling.

well I often ride my mountain bike and knobbies with the group. That usually gets 'em going

p.s. fenders/lights/knapsack are optional

p.s.2. I'm not joking - if you're stronger than the bulk of your group - ride your m/b or CC bike or super heavy tires like Armadillo's at only 80 psi.

 

[whoawhoa]

well I often ride my mountain bike and knobbies with the group. That usually gets 'em going

p.s. fenders/lights/knapsack are optional

p.s.2. I'm not joking - if you're stronger than the bulk of your group - ride your m/b or CC bike or super heavy tires like Armadillo's at only 80 psi.

Do you know what 'cross tires do to rolling resistance/wattage?

 

[whoawhoa]

I understand. FWIW, I'll make one suggestion about commenting on someone's training regimen. Strip away all the detail and look at the poster's core work in (what we believe to be) the important training levels. If you feel he could achieve his objectives with a bit more time at, say, L4, then suggest that he increase his L4 minutes. Forget about what he's doing that you think is a waste of time, because to offer that opinion immediately turns the guy off and he doesn't hear what you think he could be doing, he only hears that you don't like what he is doing. IOW, as soon as he hears the negative, his ears close and he fails to hear the positive suggestion. But, what you really want him to get is the affirmative suggestion. So, drop the negative and go right to the jugular -- what he could be doing that he is not doing that would help him. Anyway, duty calls -- I have to go and have my ass kicked by those salty SoCal masters. Wish me luck.

You're right, of course, but sooner or later they figure out that increasing l4 minutes goes against what they are doing. When I try this appraoch on local riders, their first reaction is that I'm a total idiot. "Don't you know you should be building your base? You don't want to peak too early!"

Good luck. We want a race/pacing report!

 

[rmur17]

Do you know what 'cross tires do to rolling resistance/wattage?

not exactly - but it's higher

But FWIW, I'd ballpark around 25W for cross tires and 50W for ~2" knobbies at speeds in the low 30 kph's. I know my average training ride speed on the m/b with knobbies is ~10% lower than that of the road bike and that's worth around 50W. Or ballpark - good clinchers at 0.004 Crr and knobbies are around 0.010 or 2.5X the rolling resistance. Makes for quite a steady workout as coasting isn't that effective any longer

I need a PM for my mountain bike ...

 

[frenchyge]

When I try this appraoch on local riders, their first reaction is that I'm a total idiot. "Don't you know you should be building your base? You don't want to peak too early!"

Better to just blow their doors off at the races, and when they ask you for training advice say something like "Oh, you know. Lots of base-building over the winter and then some intervals and races later on." That way they'll think you're smart instead of an idiot.

People get pretty invested in their training programs.