Would you do this .. ?

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Elyob, May 26, 2003.

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  1. Elyob

    Elyob Guest

    I've had a nice day out today, a couple of laps of Richmond park and a load of general urban
    cycling. Weather was lovely, and my new glasses were superb (thanks SM).

    Whilst my food is in the oven I decided to have a quick beer and grab some
    milk. Totally useless information, but thought it added to help those who like to build a picture in
    their minds eye ;)

    Anyway, I wander across the road and see a slhouete of a bike about 150yds away with no lights. It
    swings across the road onto the pavement I'm aiming for. My peripial vision now catches a second
    cyclist hacking along the pavement I've just left. Now they're closer I see they're wearing matching
    lycra outfits, nice bikes, SPDs and seem reasonably fit. It's possible to get caught a little late
    by the sunset, but it's 10pm. They haven't even bothered getting some cheap LED's. Now to the
    question ...

    Which if the following would you have done ...

    a/ Shouted out "Oy, get some lights"
    b/ "Oy, get off the pavement"
    c/ Both of the above
    d/ Nothing (It's their lives, they're a bad example though)
    e/ something different ... (please fill in below ... )

    I went for d.

    They're give an awful example to other cyclists, and these people make misery and ammunition for
    non-cyclists. If it was someone else I was cycling with, i'd say that they're crazy.

    Nick

    --
    ___________________________________
    www.local-hotel.com www.local-pub.com www.local-restaurant.com

    www.local-serve.com
     
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  2. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    elyob wrote:
    > Which if the following would you have done ...
    >
    > a/ Shouted out "Oy, get some lights"
    > b/ "Oy, get off the pavement"
    > c/ Both of the above
    > d/ Nothing (It's their lives, they're a bad example though)
    > e/ something different ... (please fill in below ... )
    >
    > I went for d.

    d.

    Frankly, I'm sick of people whinging about cycling on pavements, cycling without lights or bells,
    etc, etc, etc. There far more important or interesting things to worry about.

    > They're give an awful example to other cyclists, and these people make misery and ammunition for
    > non-cyclists.

    Ammunition yes. Misery? Come off it.

    ~PB
     
  3. "Pete Biggs" <pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > elyob wrote:
    > > Which if the following would you have done ...
    > >
    > > a/ Shouted out "Oy, get some lights"
    > > b/ "Oy, get off the pavement"
    > > c/ Both of the above
    > > d/ Nothing (It's their lives, they're a bad example though)
    > > e/ something different ... (please fill in below ... )
    > >
    > > I went for d.
    >
    > d.
    >
    > Frankly, I'm sick of people whinging about cycling on pavements, cycling without lights or bells,
    > etc, etc, etc. There far more important or interesting things to worry about.
    >

    I've said this before, and I'll say it again - there is a significant chance a bad cyclist will get
    in a car and be a bad driver. Traffic laws must be enforced, regardless of which mode of transport
    is being used.

    As for "I'm sick of people whinging...", P**l S**th is sick of whinging about people speeding. I'm
    sure you'll agree that this isn't a reason to ignore speeders.

    <snip
     
  4. Floyd

    Floyd Guest

    >Frankly, I'm sick of people whinging about cycling on pavements, cycling without lights or bells,
    >etc, etc, etc.

    Cycling on pavements - Guilty. sometimes it's the only safe option. But without lights, no way. I
    always have two rear lights in case one fails.

    Floyd

    http://www.technofreak.com
     
  5. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    Nathaniel Porter wrote:

    > I've said this before, and I'll say it again - there is a significant chance a bad cyclist will
    > get in a car and be a bad driver.

    Cyclists get blamed for a lot, but bad driving takes the biscuit! I really don't think getting away
    with cycling on the pavement is to blame for bad driving. Apart from anything else, a great many
    good car drivers will have been (or are) "bad" cyclists, and many bad drivers will have never (or
    hardly ever) cycled in their lives.

    > Traffic laws must be enforced, regardless of which mode of transport is being used.

    A society where ALL laws were enforced ALL the time would be hell.

    And what about having more laws for how pedestrians travel? Speed limits, maximum pace length, no
    dark clothing, acceleration limits, one foot on the ground at all times. All very reasonable!

    Traffic laws are primarily designed for fat fast motor vehicles. The laws either need thoroughly
    tuning up to properly account for the fundamental differences of bicycles, or we "must" carry on
    with what we have now: descretion of what laws are enforced for each individual road (and pavement)
    user and circumstance.

    > As for "I'm sick of people whinging...", P**l S**th is sick of whinging about people speeding. I'm
    > sure you'll agree that this isn't a reason to ignore speeders.

    Speeding motorists kill a lot of people. THAT is the reason not to ignore speeders.

    ~PB
     
  6. Tenex

    Tenex Guest

    Pete Biggs wrote:
    > Traffic laws are primarily designed for fat fast motor vehicles.

    They're designed for any 'vehicle' including the pony and trap. The earliest I recall was passed in
    1835/7 and proscribed driving traps on pavements. Fat and fast would apply solely to buses on my
    local road - they are a menace. Cars would escape by that definition.
     
  7. Stephen \

    Stephen \ Guest

    "elyob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I've had a nice day out today, a couple of laps of Richmond park and a
    load
    > of general urban cycling. Weather was lovely, and my new glasses were
    superb
    > (thanks SM).
    >
    > Whilst my food is in the oven I decided to have a quick beer and grab some
    > milk. Totally useless information, but thought it added to help those who like to build a picture
    > in their minds eye ;)
    >
    > Anyway, I wander across the road and see a slhouete of a bike about 150yds away with no lights. It
    > swings across the road onto the pavement I'm
    aiming
    > for. My peripial vision now catches a second cyclist hacking along the pavement I've just left.
    > Now they're closer I see they're wearing matching lycra outfits, nice bikes, SPDs and seem
    > reasonably fit. It's possible to get caught a little late by the sunset, but it's 10pm. They
    > haven't even bothered getting some cheap LED's. Now to the question ...
    >
    > Which if the following would you have done ...
    >
    > a/ Shouted out "Oy, get some lights"
    > b/ "Oy, get off the pavement"
    > c/ Both of the above
    > d/ Nothing (It's their lives, they're a bad example though)
    > e/ something different ... (please fill in below ... )
    >
    > I went for d.
    >
    > They're give an awful example to other cyclists, and these people make misery and ammunition for
    > non-cyclists. If it was someone else I was cycling with, i'd say that they're crazy.
    >
    > Nick
    >
    If I hadn't seen them until late because of no lights I'd have said (a)

    If they'd nearly hit me on the pavement I'd have said (b)

    If they'd nearly hit me on the pavement because of no lights I'd have said
    (c)

    If I'd seen them (as you did) and they were only a threat to themselves with no lights I'd have said
    (d) as you did.
     
  8. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    Tenex wrote:
    > Pete Biggs wrote:
    >> Traffic laws are primarily designed for fat fast motor vehicles.
    >
    > They're designed for any 'vehicle' including the pony and trap.

    The "designers" hardly have cycles in mind when making the laws. I know they (nearly all) *apply* to
    cycles, but that's not the point.

    > The earliest I recall was passed in 1835/7 and proscribed driving traps on pavements.

    I'm not referring to ALL the laws but the bulk of modern traffic laws - and road & junction layouts,
    for that matter.

    > Fat and fast would apply solely to buses on my local road
    >- they are a menace. Cars would escape by that definition.

    How many times fatter and faster than a bicycle is a car?

    ~PB
     
  9. Irish Chris

    Irish Chris New Member

    Joined:
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    Currrently the sun isn't setting until well after 9pm so it is possible they were just caught out a bit later than they had thought. Additionally, sometimes cycling on the footpath is the only reasonably safe course of events. I would rather see someone cycling on the footpath, when it's getting dark, than being out in traffic barely visible.

    Had it been me, I would just have tutted in contempt and somehow been glad in the smug knowledge it's something I wouldn't doand pleased because I had something to complain about. Unfortunately that is true.
     
  10. Simon Mason

    Simon Mason Guest

    "elyob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I've had a nice day out today, a couple of laps of Richmond park and a
    load
    > of general urban cycling. Weather was lovely, and my new glasses were
    superb
    > (thanks SM).

    I'll send the dark ones when I go back to work next week. Simon
     
  11. Simon Mason

    Simon Mason Guest

    "Pete Biggs" <pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    >
    > Frankly, I'm sick of people whinging about cycling on pavements, cycling without lights or bells,
    > etc, etc, etc. There far more important or interesting things to worry about.

    Surely you can say this about anything? For example, while there is starving in the 3rd world,
    rampant AIDS in Africa and earthquakes in Algeria, shall we bother with cars parking on double
    yellow lines as it's such a trivial matter in comparison?

    We can't do anything about the above, but we can help to stop our own people getting killed if we
    politely suggest they put some lights on.

    --
    Simon Mason Anlaby East Yorkshire. 53°44'N 0°26'W http://www.simonmason.karoo.net
     
  12. Tenex

    Tenex Guest

    Pete Biggs wrote:
    > Tenex wrote:
    >> Pete Biggs wrote:
    >>> Traffic laws are primarily designed for fat fast motor vehicles.
    >>
    >> They're designed for any 'vehicle' including the pony and trap.
    >
    > The "designers" hardly have cycles in mind when making the laws. I know they (nearly all) *apply*
    > to cycles, but that's not the point.
    >
    >> The earliest I recall was passed in 1835/7 and proscribed driving traps on pavements.
    >
    > I'm not referring to ALL the laws but the bulk of modern traffic laws
    > - and road & junction layouts, for that matter.
    >
    >> Fat and fast would apply solely to buses on my local road
    >>- they are a menace. Cars would escape by that definition.
    >
    > How many times fatter and faster than a bicycle is a car?
    >
    > ~PB

    Surely the point is we can't choose which laws to obey?

    Otherwise I vote for scrapping all revenue laws before turning to bike unfriendly legislation. ;-)
     
  13. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    Simon Mason wrote:

    >> Frankly, I'm sick of people whinging about cycling on pavements, cycling without lights or bells,
    >> etc, etc, etc. There far more important or interesting things to worry about.
    >
    > Surely you can say this about anything? For example, while there is starving in the 3rd world,
    > rampant AIDS in Africa and earthquakes in Algeria, shall we bother with cars parking on double
    > yellow lines as it's such a trivial matter in comparison?

    I don't mean the issue should be completely ignored, it's just that the amount and strength of
    criticism and seems way over the top to me. "Bad" cycling is a minor problem compared to bad
    motoring yet it gets several times more bashing (from all quaters) per miscreant.

    > We can't do anything about the above, but we can help to stop our own people getting killed if we
    > politely suggest they put some lights on.

    That would be allright if it was polite with enuine and warranted concern, but I think people (in
    general) often moan about this purely because they like to pick on others and feel superior.

    ~PB
     
  14. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    Tenex wrote:

    > Surely the point is we can't choose which laws to obey?

    A wonderfully British attitude!

    Of course we can choose - and we do. It's called freedom. We have to take the consequences if we get
    nicked, though, but my point is that it's not important to *always* enforce every law because the
    law is so generalised.

    ~PB
     
  15. Elyob

    Elyob Guest

  16. Elyob

    Elyob Guest

    "Pete Biggs" <pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > >
    > That would be allright if it was polite with enuine and warranted concern, but I think people (in
    > general) often moan about this purely because they like to pick on others and feel superior.
    >

    I didn't say a thing to them. I didn't moan or whinge, just asked here what everyone else would do.
    I certainly wouldn't feel guilty if they knocked off or hit. But if they hit a pensioner just after
    going past me, I'd feel guilty I did nothing. It's not the actions but the possible consequences
    that are the dangerous part.

    I think the bit that amazed me was they seemed to be particularly keen cyclists and old enough to
    know different. They buy a bike and equipment but forgot to even have a back LED. I just don't get
    it. If it's friends of mine, I'd buy some for them.
     
  17. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    elyob wrote:

    > I didn't say a thing to them. I didn't moan or whinge

    My comments were about the _general_ level of critism and not aimed at any individual persons or
    posts here, fueled by the belief that the dangers of pavement cycling and no-lights are generally
    greatly exagerated. The one more message on the subject was the final straw for me. Sorry about that
    - my first reply was a whinge if ever there was one! :)

    >, just asked here what everyone else would do. I certainly wouldn't feel guilty if they knocked off
    >or hit. But if they hit a pensioner just after going past me, I'd feel guilty I did nothing. It's
    >not the actions but the possible consequences that are the dangerous part.
    >
    > I think the bit that amazed me was they seemed to be particularly keen cyclists and old enough to
    > know different. They buy a bike and equipment but forgot to even have a back LED. I just don't get
    > it. If it's friends of mine, I'd buy some for them.

    They may have been out later than expected and didn't manage to attach clip-on lights in advance.
    They are in the wrong but I'm not sure pointing it out to them would do any good as they probably
    know full well what they're doing (and would most likely to be able to avoid pensioners without
    relying on the pensioners to see them at all). Might be different with young kids where they might
    be encouraged to get some lights if they'd never properly considered it before - but you'd have to
    be very skillful with your tone.

    ~PB
     
  18. Lardy Ninja

    Lardy Ninja Guest

    "elyob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...

    >
    > I didn't say a thing to them. I didn't moan or whinge, just asked here what everyone else would
    > do. I certainly wouldn't feel guilty if they knocked off or hit. But if they hit a pensioner just
    > after going past me, I'd feel guilty I did nothing. It's not the actions but the possible
    > consequences that are the dangerous part.
    >

    Here's an analogy for you. Would you consider shouting at every motorist you see driving whilst on
    the phone or speeding etc etc etc? Would you feel guilty if you did nothing and see them run some
    one down further down the road?

    LN
     
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