Yes, I wanna witness (about cable quality)



I

Ivar Hesselager

Guest
I'm not actually a Dura Ace kind of cyclist. In the summer time I'm at
Ultegra level. But I confess that during winter I go real low: On my
rain and snow winter commuter I have a miserable Shimano Alivia rear
derailler, that has annoied me daily, since I have had to shift three
steps down and two steps up to move the chain approximately one sprocket.

The cable and housing being but a few months old and well greased, I had
concluded I had to upgrade to at least a Shimano 105 derailler to get
proper shifting. But then one fine day this newsgroup pointed me in the
direction of the Sheldon site, that reveals that poor shifting is mainly
caused by bad cables - not bad deraillers.

Having seen the light, I sent for a set of Dura Ace cables and housing and
connected it to the miserable Alivia derailler. And Alas, all of my
shifting trouble was over.

I think the spring on the derailler is not as strong as it should be or
has been, but with the Dura Ace cable, gear shifting is no longer
miserable. It shifts one sprocket up or down with every click of the shift.

I am surprised that high quality cables and housing makes so much
difference. And it pleases me to find another example of the old
maxime, that true quality lies in the hidden details.

Ivar (of Denmark)
 
Ivar Hesselager wrote:
> I'm not actually a Dura Ace kind of cyclist. In the summer time I'm
> at Ultegra level. But I confess that during winter I go real low: On
> my rain and snow winter commuter I have a miserable Shimano Alivia
> rear derailler, that has annoied me daily, since I have had to shift
> three steps down and two steps up to move the chain approximately one
> sprocket.
>
> The cable and housing being but a few months old and well greased, I
> had concluded I had to upgrade to at least a Shimano 105 derailler to
> get proper shifting. But then one fine day this newsgroup pointed me
> in the direction of the Sheldon site, that reveals that poor shifting
> is mainly caused by bad cables - not bad deraillers.
>
> Having seen the light, I sent for a set of Dura Ace cables and housing
> and connected it to the miserable Alivia derailler. And Alas, all of
> my shifting trouble was over.
>
> I think the spring on the derailler is not as strong as it should be or
> has been, but with the Dura Ace cable, gear shifting is no longer
> miserable. It shifts one sprocket up or down with every click of the shift.
>
> I am surprised that high quality cables and housing makes so much
> difference. And it pleases me to find another example of the old
> maxime, that true quality lies in the hidden details.
>
> Ivar (of Denmark)
>


I had the same problem with my mountain bike. I upgraded the cables to
XTR and all my problems went away. (Well my gear change problems did
anyway.)

Marty
 
Marty wrote:
> I had the same problem with my mountain bike. I upgraded the cables to
> XTR and all my problems went away. (Well my gear change problems did
> anyway.)


I had XTR cables for a while (on an otherwise XT level bike), but the
coating rubbed off the inner where it entered the last bit of outer
before the rear mech. I changed to some from Gore and these have been
trouble-free for three winters - never lubed, worked fine.
 
Ivar Hesselager wrote:
> I'm not actually a Dura Ace kind of cyclist. In the summer time I'm at
> Ultegra level. But I confess that during winter I go real low: On my
> rain and snow winter commuter I have a miserable Shimano Alivia rear
> derailler, that has annoied me daily, since I have had to shift three
> steps down and two steps up to move the chain approximately one sprocket.
>
> The cable and housing being but a few months old and well greased, I had
> concluded I had to upgrade to at least a Shimano 105 derailler to get
> proper shifting. But then one fine day this newsgroup pointed me in the
> direction of the Sheldon site, that reveals that poor shifting is mainly
> caused by bad cables - not bad deraillers.
>
> Having seen the light, I sent for a set of Dura Ace cables and housing and
> connected it to the miserable Alivia derailler. And Alas, all of my
> shifting trouble was over.



Too bad the 'light' didn't include seeing that many LBS inner wires and
lined housing are 'XTR/DA' quality w/o the high price. Most aftermarket
inner wire/housing combos, the highest quality ones, are on par with
the 'branded' ones...just less money.
>
> I think the spring on the derailler is not as strong as it should be or
> has been, but with the Dura Ace cable, gear shifting is no longer
> miserable. It shifts one sprocket up or down with every click of the shift.
>
> I am surprised that high quality cables and housing makes so much
> difference. And it pleases me to find another example of the old
> maxime, that true quality lies in the hidden details.
>
> Ivar (of Denmark)
 
25 Nov 2005 06:39:11 -0800, Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Too bad the 'light' didn't include seeing that many LBS inner wires and
> lined housing are 'XTR/DA' quality w/o the high price. Most aftermarket
> inner wire/housing combos, the highest quality ones, are on par with
> the 'branded' ones...just less money.




No, that doesn't matter.

I am celebrating that I succeded in blowing new life into a cheap and old
derailler, simply by installing top quality wire/housing.

On top of the satisfaction I saved around 50 dollars by not buying af new
derailler, as I was ready to.

However, the experience that I wanted to share, was not how cheap I could
get around the problem, but how wire/housing of top quality can make a bad
derailler work good.

I know you, Peter Old Man, know which cable sets are
as-good-as-but-much-cheaper. All I know is that the cheap Shimano cable
set isn't good enough for a cheap derailler.

Ivar (of Denmark)
 
"Ivar Hesselager" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eek:ps0tne0zvxtdc4g@ivarsnotebook...
> 25 Nov 2005 06:39:11 -0800, Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Too bad the 'light' didn't include seeing that many LBS inner wires and
>> lined housing are 'XTR/DA' quality w/o the high price. Most aftermarket
>> inner wire/housing combos, the highest quality ones, are on par with
>> the 'branded' ones...just less money.

>
>
>
> No, that doesn't matter.
>
> I am celebrating that I succeded in blowing new life into a cheap and old
> derailler, simply by installing top quality wire/housing.
>
> On top of the satisfaction I saved around 50 dollars by not buying af new
> derailler, as I was ready to.
>
> However, the experience that I wanted to share, was (clip)how wire/housing
> of top quality can make a bad derailler work good.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think you're thinking is up-side-down. There was no bad deraileur. A bad
cable, replaced with a good one, made a good deraileur start working again.
 
[email protected] wrote:
> Marty wrote:
> > I had the same problem with my mountain bike. I upgraded the cables to
> > XTR and all my problems went away. (Well my gear change problems did
> > anyway.)

>
> I had XTR cables for a while (on an otherwise XT level bike), but the
> coating rubbed off the inner where it entered the last bit of outer
> before the rear mech. I changed to some from Gore and these have been
> trouble-free for three winters - never lubed, worked fine.


I believe that top quality Jagwire & QBP cables & housings are as good
as top line Shimano. I've heard many times that they are all made by
Jagwire. Even though the fact alone that a product having been made by
the same manufactuer does not assure that it will be of the same
quality. In fact Jagwire does make some lower quality stuff such as
gavinized cables. Never the less I think thleir top quality is as good
as any.
What I'm saying is that one can get Shimanos top quality cables &
housing more conviently & economicaly w/o buying the Shimano brand. If
some of the pros in the group know better, I'm more than open to
listen.

John
 
john wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> Marty wrote:
>>> I had the same problem with my mountain bike. I upgraded the cables
>>> to XTR and all my problems went away. (Well my gear change problems
>>> did anyway.)

>>
>> I had XTR cables for a while (on an otherwise XT level bike), but the
>> coating rubbed off the inner where it entered the last bit of outer
>> before the rear mech. I changed to some from Gore and these have
>> been trouble-free for three winters - never lubed, worked fine.

>
> I believe that top quality Jagwire & QBP cables & housings are as
> good as top line Shimano. I've heard many times that they are all
> made by Jagwire. Even though the fact alone that a product having
> been made by the same manufactuer does not assure that it will be of
> the same quality. In fact Jagwire does make some lower quality stuff
> such as gavinized cables. Never the less I think thleir top quality
> is as good as any.
> What I'm saying is that one can get Shimanos top quality cables &
> housing more conviently & economicaly w/o buying the Shimano brand. If
> some of the pros in the group know better, I'm more than open to
> listen.


At our shop, we use any cables and housing that are cheap: QBP, Aztec,
Pyramid, Jagwire, etc. They all work fine as long as they are stainless or
lined. Brand doesn't seem to make a difference... quality seems the same.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training
 
Ivar Hesselager wrote:

> All I know is that the cheap Shimano cable
> set isn't good enough for a cheap derailler.

TOUR magazin had a very big cable test some time ago.


Greets, Derk
 
Ivar Hesselager wrote:

> I sent for a set of Dura Ace cables and housing and connected it to the miserable Alivia derailler. And Alas, all of my shifting trouble was over.


Next time buy 5mm housing instead of the 4mm DA, and use metal ferrules
instead of the plastic DA. You'll get even better performance.

Art Harris
 
Sat, 26 Nov 2005 00:40:51 GMT, Leo Lichtman
<[email protected]>wrote:


> I think you're thinking is up-side-down. There was no bad deraileur. A
> bad
> cable, replaced with a good one, made a good deraileur start working
> again.
>

I have to aggree with you. Under the right circumstances what seemed bad
turns out to be good - just like some people do :)

Ivar


--
Sendt med Operas banebrydende nyhedsgruppe-
og e-postklient: http://www.opera.com/m2/
 
Sat, 26 Nov 2005 03:35:24 GMT, Phil, Squid-in-Training
<[email protected]> skrev:

>
> At our shop, we use any cables and housing that are cheap: QBP, Aztec,
> Pyramid, Jagwire, etc. They all work fine as long as they are stainless
> or
> lined. Brand doesn't seem to make a difference... quality seems the
> same.
>


I have been convinced - by you pro's in the business - that there are
several just-as-good-as-DA cable/housing and much cheaper. But for a
cheap - and by several winters worn down - derailer with a soft spring,
there was too much friction in a new standard Shimano cable/housing. I am
sure it was stainless - but I don't know what "lined" means in this
connection.
I would like to know how to check for the deciding qualities in a low
friction cable/housing.

Ivar
 
Ivar Hesselager wrote:
> Sat, 26 Nov 2005 03:35:24 GMT, Phil, Squid-in-Training
> <[email protected]> skrev:
>
>>
>> At our shop, we use any cables and housing that are cheap: QBP,
>> Aztec, Pyramid, Jagwire, etc. They all work fine as long as they
>> are stainless or
>> lined. Brand doesn't seem to make a difference... quality seems the
>> same.
>>

>
> I have been convinced - by you pro's in the business - that there are
> several just-as-good-as-DA cable/housing and much cheaper. But for a
> cheap - and by several winters worn down - derailer with a soft
> spring, there was too much friction in a new standard Shimano
> cable/housing. I am sure it was stainless - but I don't know what
> "lined" means in this connection.
> I would like to know how to check for the deciding qualities in a low
> friction cable/housing.
>
> Ivar


Stainless cable is shiny. Galvanized (the other low-quality type) is a dull
grey. Lined housing has a plastic liner on the inside that separates the
stainless cable from the helical cable reinforcement of the housing. You
can see it if you cut the housing and notice a bluish-grey piece of plastic
covering the hole in which you would put the cable. Unlined housing, when
you cut it, usually looks rusty inside the hole.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training
 
Ivar Hesselager wrote:
> Sat, 26 Nov 2005 03:35:24 GMT, Phil, Squid-in-Training
> <[email protected]> skrev:
>
>>
>> At our shop, we use any cables and housing that are cheap: QBP, Aztec,
>> Pyramid, Jagwire, etc. They all work fine as long as they are
>> stainless or
>> lined. Brand doesn't seem to make a difference... quality seems the
>> same.
>>

>
> I have been convinced - by you pro's in the business - that there are
> several just-as-good-as-DA cable/housing and much cheaper. But for a
> cheap - and by several winters worn down - derailer with a soft spring,
> there was too much friction in a new standard Shimano cable/housing. I
> am sure it was stainless - but I don't know what "lined" means in
> this connection.
> I would like to know how to check for the deciding qualities in a low
> friction cable/housing.
>
> Ivar
>
>
>

both the d/a & xtr cables are both "lined & slimed" - the inners have a
polyethelyene liner and are lubed [i think with silicone]. the ferrules
also have internal grommet seals that keep out the grit that is the
cause of the friction problem in the first place. fwiw, the cables are
also very high quality with much smoother strand surfaces than some of
the cheaper brand cables. check them out with a magnifier. anyway, the
combo of non-goopy lube, ferrules and quality wire make for a great long
lasting overall combination. cheaper cables are lined, not slimed, and
the ferrules are not sealed. they work fine initially, but time to next
needed maintenance is much reduced in my experience - particularly in
rain, mud, etc.
 
the deray system is balanced by design. using "grease" on the cables-a
practice not recommended by shimano-in cold weather probabbbly gettting
below ambient summer temps to 60 degrees then causes gease/cable
"sticktion", the design balance is upset, the deray no longer responds.
no grease, no oil, maybe light teflon wax to 40 degrees
 
Ivar Hesselager wrote:
> 25 Nov 2005 06:39:11 -0800, Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > Too bad the 'light' didn't include seeing that many LBS inner wires and
> > lined housing are 'XTR/DA' quality w/o the high price. Most aftermarket
> > inner wire/housing combos, the highest quality ones, are on par with
> > the 'branded' ones...just less money.

>
>
>
> No, that doesn't matter.
>
> I am celebrating that I succeded in blowing new life into a cheap and old
> derailler, simply by installing top quality wire/housing.
>
> On top of the satisfaction I saved around 50 dollars by not buying af new
> derailler, as I was ready to.
>
> However, the experience that I wanted to share, was not how cheap I could
> get around the problem, but how wire/housing of top quality can make a bad
> derailler work good.



Agree with this


>
> I know you, Peter Old Man, know which cable sets are
> as-good-as-but-much-cheaper. All I know is that the cheap Shimano cable
> set isn't good enough for a cheap derailler.



Agree times 2-good for you going to the cheapest solution
first...something I wish some bike shops here in the republic would
do...
>
> Ivar (of Denmark)