YMC learns an important lesson

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Tritonrider, Oct 10, 2003.

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  1. Tritonrider

    Tritonrider Guest

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/?id=2003/oct03/oct11news

    With Mike Creed the best placed US rider in the U23 men's road race in 34th, the American team was
    disappointed with its performance in Hamilton. Creed explained afterwards, "I didn't think the break
    would come back once it went, and then when I realized there were no Dutch in it, I saw Weening
    start to go across. I went on his wheel and felt good, but he just kicked it up the first climb and
    I just missed it. I knew that was it once he made it across. I've never done an Espoir Worlds like
    that. I thought I was really feeling good early but then I just realized we were going really slow.
    There was never one solid pace, it just got faster and faster from the start to the finish."

    I think this really was a good learning experience for him. He's going to be a solid pro in Europe,
    but he has to understand the attitude they race with. You've got kids that've been in "Sport
    Schools" since they were 10 or so majoring in bike racing. It is not a sport, or a game to them.
    It's a career and way of life. Americans tend not to get it. They hang out with other Americans, or
    Brits and just don't understand the depth of the culture behind cycling in Europe. They might even
    know the riders and the history, but knowing and understanding are two different animals. Bill C
     
    Tags:


  2. Matabala

    Matabala Guest

    "TritonRider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/?id=2003/oct03/oct11news

    >
    > I think this really was a good learning experience for him. He's going to
    be a
    > solid pro in Europe, but he has to understand the attitude they race with. You've got kids that've
    > been in "Sport Schools" since they were 10 or so majoring in bike racing. It is not a sport, or a
    > game to them. It's a
    career
    > and way of life. Americans tend not to get it. They hang out with other Americans, or Brits and
    > just don't understand the depth of the culture
    behind
    > cycling in Europe. They might even know the riders and the history, but
    knowing
    > and understanding are two different animals. Bill C

    You've got to love the resounding optimism of some. When a guy comes up short, it's a "learning
    experience". Sorry, but such kindler, gentler words of rationalization have no place in the brutal
    world of world-class bike racing. Either you make the cut, survive the selection or you get
    dropped, period.

    Creed and the bunch aren't wide-eyed newcomers to the Euro U-23 peleton. The majority have been
    based over there for a few years, doing plenty of racing, getting to know the riders, see first-hand
    the bike culture, etc. Creed's been with a pro squad for a few years. I should hope he'd pretty much
    have the "learning" part of it down by now. Would he have made it to that point without having some
    "attitude"? What's understanding the bike culture have to do with winning a race? They didn't have
    it on the day, others were stronger. Lets hope those guys are already looking forward to reversing
    the results rather than writing it off as a good experience.
     
  3. Amit

    Amit Guest

    [email protected] (TritonRider) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/?id=2003/oct03/oct11news
    >
    > I think this really was a good learning experience for him. He's going to be a solid pro in
    > Europe, but he has to understand the attitude they race with. You've got kids that've been in
    > "Sport Schools" since they were 10 or so majoring in bike racing. It is not a sport, or a game to
    > them. It's a career and way of life.

    Creed is a US based pro, so in some ways he's more professional than a lot of the other U23 riders.

    > Americans tend not to get it. They hang out with other Americans, or Brits and just don't
    > understand the depth of the culture behind cycling in Europe. They might even know the riders and
    > the history, but knowing and understanding are two different animals.
    >

    What does that have to do with racing ? The U23 champion is from Uzbekistan, now much racing culture
    do you think is there (other than the Soviet sports culture) ? In the past Mike Creed has spoken out
    against drugs and has expressed interest in things other than cycling. Either of those things might
    be what keeps him pursuing a career as a Euro pro.

    -Amit
     
  4. Tritonrider

    Tritonrider Guest

    >What does that have to do with racing ? The U23 champion is from Uzbekistan, now much racing
    >culture do you think is there (other than the Soviet sports culture) ? In the past Mike Creed has
    >spoken out against drugs and has expressed interest in things other than cycling. Either of those
    >things might be what keeps him pursuing a career as a Euro pro.
    >
    >-Amit
    >
    >
    I think it relates in the number of kids you have coming up, and the number of races available
    for them. When we lived in Germany there were tons of young riders racing and training all over
    the place. We could've raced several times a week within 150km if we had wanted to. On training
    rides you'd have people yelling encouragement as they went by in their cars. So I'd sum my points
    up as 1. Larger pool of talent to choose from. 2. They are supported and encouraged by the
    general public. 3. Many more races to learn and train at without as much travel. Countries
    without this will produce the occasional exceptional athlete, but most of the pack is coming from
    continental Europe, and will continue to until things change. Bill C
     
  5. BILL C has really made the point.. it is not as simple as being strong... the bike race isnt held in
    a lab on an ergometer... the race is held on the roads, but the real battle field is in the minds of
    the riders...

    i talked to saul raisin about the race and the tactics of their team, and i have to say that most of
    the young americans just dont get it... it doesnt mean that they are stupid, it just means that they
    neither understand nor share in the mentality of the europeans.. a really good example of a typical
    young european rider with a great mentality is viktor rapinski... study this guy, the way he rides,
    and you will see how the young americans differ... a lot of it has to do with gritting your teeth
    and suffering to make the race happen in every race you enter...some riders wait and hope to make
    the selection, while others know the moment to dig for that last little bit in order to force the
    selection...
     
  6. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, erik saunders <[email protected]> wrote:

    > BILL C has really made the point.. it is not as simple as being strong... the bike race isnt held
    > in a lab on an ergometer... the race is held on the roads, but the real battle field is in the
    > minds of the riders...
    >
    > i talked to saul raisin about the race and the tactics of their team, and i have to say that most
    > of the young americans just dont get it... it doesnt mean that they are stupid, it just means that
    > they neither understand nor share in the mentality of the europeans.. a really good example of a
    > typical young european rider with a great mentality is viktor rapinski... study this guy, the way
    > he rides, and you will see how the young americans differ... a lot of it has to do with gritting
    > your teeth and suffering to make the race happen in every race you enter...some riders wait and
    > hope to make the selection, while others know the moment to dig for that last little bit in order
    > to force the selection...

    A "Euro" thing? Or just a *male* "Euro" thing. Witness the women's RR.

    -WG
     
  7. H Squared

    H Squared Guest

    Davey Crockett wrote:
    >
    > warren <[email protected]> writes:
    >
    > > In article <[email protected]>, erik saunders <[email protected]>
    > > wrote:
    > >
    > > Witness the women's RR.
    > >
    >
    > I did.
    >
    > And saving the presence of Mlle. Jeannie, it was a pretty sorry excuse for a race.
    >

    in a way i'm torn, because it wasn't too exciting, except for wondering if longo would miraculously
    hold off the 10 or so chasers, but then it really does seem like the strongest women made the podium
    (as opposed to a tactically smart move placing someone on the podium). i don't mind a race of
    attrition myself, boring as it is to watch.

    i felt sorry for nicole cooke, though.

    heather (why does the men's race have to happen during the same time as football????)
     
  8. Omc

    Omc Guest

    [email protected] (erik saunders) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > BILL C has really made the point.. it is not as simple as being strong... the bike race isnt held
    > in a lab on an ergometer... the race is held on the roads, but the real battle field is in the
    > minds of the riders...
    >
    > i talked to saul raisin about the race and the tactics of their team, and i have to say that most
    > of the young americans just dont get it... it doesnt mean that they are stupid, it just means that
    > they neither understand nor share in the mentality of the europeans.. a really good example of a
    > typical young european rider with a great mentality is viktor rapinski... study this guy, the way
    > he rides, and you will see how the young americans differ... a lot of it has to do with gritting
    > your teeth and suffering to make the race happen in every race you enter...some riders wait and
    > hope to make the selection, while others know the moment to dig for that last little bit in order
    > to force the selection...

    If they had studied Victor for THIS race, they would of been sitting watching the end race. Victor
    is a tough kid, but he dosen't live in Belarus, he lives in the US with Toby Stanton (Hot Tubes)for
    the past 5 years. I saw the race, I was there and they simply missed the break along with alot of
    other Euros. They gave it their best shot. It is easy to say that they aren't tough enough mentally
    just because they didn't make the selection. The US guys were the only ones that were at the front
    going up the Beckett climb on the last 3 laps doing the chasing. The other euro teams that had
    missed the break were sitting on. Give them a little credit for making a huge effort to correct a
    tatical mistake. I guess they coudl adopted a European mentality and pulled up a chair next to
    Rapinski and the other 80+ euros that decided to watch...

    OMC
     
  9. h squared <[email protected]> writes:

    > Davey Crockett wrote:
    >>
    >> warren <[email protected]> writes:
    >>
    >> > In article <[email protected]>, erik saunders <[email protected]>
    >> > wrote:
    >> >
    >> > Witness the women's RR.
    >> >
    >>
    >> I did.
    >>
    >> And saving the presence of Mlle. Jeannie, it was a pretty sorry excuse for a race.
    >>
    >
    > in a way i'm torn, because it wasn't too exciting, except for wondering if longo would
    > miraculously hold off the 10 or so chasers, but then it really does seem like the strongest women
    > made the podium (as opposed to a tactically smart move placing someone on the podium). i don't
    > mind a race of attrition myself, boring as it is to watch.
    >
    > i felt sorry for nicole cooke, though.
    >
    > heather (why does the men's race have to happen during the same time as football????)

    Yes, Nicole was in an unenviable position towards the end.

    I wonder if she could have got Silver if, as I thought they were going to do for a while, they'd
    let Longo go.

    Anyway, thankfully, unlike the mens race which so far has been a disaster for crashes, according to
    CBC (French) radio, the ladies event was (relatively) Incident free.

    Margaret Hemsley didn't show yesterday, but I have high hopes for my lad Cedric Vasseur to show them
    his back wheel with about three laps to go.

    --
    le vent a Dos

    Davey Crockett
     
  10. Omc

    Omc Guest

    [email protected] (Amit) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > [email protected] (TritonRider) wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/?id=2003/oct03/oct11news
    > >
    > > I think this really was a good learning experience for him. He's going to be a solid pro in
    > > Europe, but he has to understand the attitude they race with. You've got kids that've been in
    > > "Sport Schools" since they were 10 or so majoring in bike racing. It is not a sport, or a game
    > > to them. It's a career and way of life.
    >
    > Creed is a US based pro, so in some ways he's more professional than a lot of the other
    > U23 riders.
    >
    > > Americans tend not to get it. They hang out with other Americans, or Brits and just don't
    > > understand the depth of the culture behind cycling in Europe. They might even know the riders
    > > and the history, but knowing and understanding are two different animals.
    > >
    >
    > What does that have to do with racing ? The U23 champion is from Uzbekistan, now much racing
    > culture do you think is there (other than the Soviet sports culture) ? In the past Mike Creed has
    > spoken out against drugs and has expressed interest in things other than cycling. Either of those
    > things might be what keeps him pursuing a career as a Euro pro.
    >
    > -Amit

    The kid from Uzbekistan has ridden for a top euro team (Colnago/Lowb) same team as Popvich. He
    might as well be Italian, just because his national team affiliation is not a powerhouse dosn't
    mean that he lacks the racing culture of Europe. It really sucks that someone could hinder their
    Euro career by having values and planning life beyond cycling, but that's the way of Pro cycling.
    Michael will just have to decide what is best for him. For a lot of U23's in Europe cycling is
    their only way to fame and fortune and are willing to do anything to get there. When a kid is ask
    by a Euro Pro Team if they are willing to make a " commitment" to the sport they're not talking
    about training hard and eating right. If you tell them "no" to the "commitment" your chance of
    finding a ride decreases rapidly.

    OMC
     
  11. Omc

    Omc Guest

    [email protected] (Amit) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > [email protected] (TritonRider) wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/?id=2003/oct03/oct11news
    > >
    > > I think this really was a good learning experience for him. He's going to be a solid pro in
    > > Europe, but he has to understand the attitude they race with. You've got kids that've been in
    > > "Sport Schools" since they were 10 or so majoring in bike racing. It is not a sport, or a game
    > > to them. It's a career and way of life.
    >
    > Creed is a US based pro, so in some ways he's more professional than a lot of the other
    > U23 riders.
    >
    > > Americans tend not to get it. They hang out with other Americans, or Brits and just don't
    > > understand the depth of the culture behind cycling in Europe. They might even know the riders
    > > and the history, but knowing and understanding are two different animals.
    > >
    >
    > What does that have to do with racing ? The U23 champion is from Uzbekistan, now much racing
    > culture do you think is there (other than the Soviet sports culture) ? In the past Mike Creed has
    > spoken out against drugs and has expressed interest in things other than cycling. Either of those
    > things might be what keeps him pursuing a career as a Euro pro.
    >
    > -Amit

    The kid from Uzbekistan has ridden for a top euro team (Colnago/Lowb) same team as Popvich. He
    might as well be Italian, just because his national team affiliation is not a powerhouse dosn't
    mean that he lacks the racing culture of Europe. It really sucks that someone could hinder their
    Euro career by having values and planning life beyond cycling, but that's the way of Pro cycling.
    Michael will just have to decide what is best for him. For a lot of U23's in Europe cycling is
    their only way to fame and fortune and are willing to do anything to get there. When a kid is ask
    by a Euro Pro Team if they are willing to make a " commitment" to the sport they're not talking
    about training hard and eating right. If you tell them "no" to the "commitment" your chance of
    finding a ride decreases rapidly.

    OMC
     
  12. Chris

    Chris Guest

    OK, we'll give you some credit. Eric has been around for awhile, so his experience is very telling
    in this situation. However, I think it is to easy to blame the Euro's as doing nothing. Many of them
    had a plan, it seemed to me that the U.S. had no plan, at least according to McCarty who stated,
    "We're just going to go for it," he said of the American team. "We'll see what the road brings and
    how our legs are... there's no leader. Some of the other guys are nervous because they're looking
    for contracts for next year."

    Sure sounds like every man for himself. Now, surely they were interested in working for each other,
    but really, that sounds like a poorly developed plan.

    CH

    [email protected] (OMC) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > [email protected] (erik saunders) wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > BILL C has really made the point.. it is not as simple as being strong... the bike race isnt
    > > held in a lab on an ergometer... the race is held on the roads, but the real battle field is in
    > > the minds of the riders...
    > >
    > > i talked to saul raisin about the race and the tactics of their team, and i have to say that
    > > most of the young americans just dont get it... it doesnt mean that they are stupid, it just
    > > means that they neither understand nor share in the mentality of the europeans.. a really good
    > > example of a typical young european rider with a great mentality is viktor rapinski... study
    > > this guy, the way he rides, and you will see how the young americans differ... a lot of it has
    > > to do with gritting your teeth and suffering to make the race happen in every race you
    > > enter...some riders wait and hope to make the selection, while others know the moment to dig for
    > > that last little bit in order to force the selection...
    >
    > If they had studied Victor for THIS race, they would of been sitting watching the end race. Victor
    > is a tough kid, but he dosen't live in Belarus, he lives in the US with Toby Stanton (Hot
    > Tubes)for the past 5 years. I saw the race, I was there and they simply missed the break along
    > with alot of other Euros. They gave it their best shot. It is easy to say that they aren't tough
    > enough mentally just because they didn't make the selection. The US guys were the only ones that
    > were at the front going up the Beckett climb on the last 3 laps doing the chasing. The other euro
    > teams that had missed the break were sitting on. Give them a little credit for making a huge
    > effort to correct a tatical mistake. I guess they coudl adopted a European mentality and pulled up
    > a chair next to Rapinski and the other 80+ euros that decided to watch...
    >
    > OMC
     
  13. B. Lafferty

    B. Lafferty Guest

    "OMC" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected] (erik saunders) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > >The other euro teams that had missed the break were sitting
    > > >> on. Give them a little credit for making a huge effort to correct a tatical mistake. I guess
    > > >> they coudl adopted a European mentality and pulled up a chair next to Rapinski and the other
    > > >> 80+ euros that decided to watch...
    > > >>
    > > >> OMC
    > > >
    > >

    who
    > > werent as good as you guys... you all have the potential to be
    champions, so
    > > you should compare yourselves to the riders who are the playmakers... i
    think
    > > that if some of you would adopt a more playmaking mentality (SAUL) you
    would
    > > have better results... i only care because i like you guys and i believe
    in
    > > your ability... i am proud that you represent the USA... if you only
    knew the
    > > arguments i would get into with guys like chavanel and geslin defending
    you
    > > under 23 guys... they were even worse haters than you MIKE!...
    >
    >
    > Please don't confuse me with YMC ! He is smart enough NOT to post here. I'm old and dumb enough to
    > continue to post here. After today's Elite results, did George and the boys lack the playmaking
    > mentality ? Look very similar to the U23 race with a late break forming and getting away. George
    > I'm sure doesn't lack Euro mentality. He didn't

    > you should know that. Knowing you need to get to the winning break and doing it is two different
    > things. When the battle plans work...your a

    > Italians who were favored to win.
    >
    > OMC
    >
    > "50 and still posting to this den of experts"

    POM
     
  14. Omc

    Omc Guest

    "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > "OMC" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > [email protected] (erik saunders) wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > >The other euro teams that had missed the break were sitting
    > > > >> on. Give them a little credit for making a huge effort to correct a tatical mistake. I
    > > > >> guess they coudl adopted a European mentality and pulled up a chair next to Rapinski and
    > > > >> the other 80+ euros that decided to watch...
    > > > >>
    > > > >> OMC
    > > > >
    > > >

    > who
    > > > werent as good as you guys... you all have the potential to be
    > champions, so
    > > > you should compare yourselves to the riders who are the playmakers... i
    > think
    > > > that if some of you would adopt a more playmaking mentality (SAUL) you
    > would
    > > > have better results... i only care because i like you guys and i believe
    > in
    > > > your ability... i am proud that you represent the USA... if you only
    > knew the
    > > > arguments i would get into with guys like chavanel and geslin defending
    > you
    > > > under 23 guys... they were even worse haters than you MIKE!...
    > >
    > >
    > > Please don't confuse me with YMC ! He is smart enough NOT to post here. I'm old and dumb enough
    > > to continue to post here. After today's Elite results, did George and the boys lack the
    > > playmaking mentality ? Look very similar to the U23 race with a late break forming and getting
    > > away. George I'm sure doesn't lack Euro mentality. He didn't

    > > you should know that. Knowing you need to get to the winning break and doing it is two different
    > > things. When the battle plans work...your a

    > > Italians who were favored to win.
    > >
    > > OMC
    > >
    > > "50 and still posting to this den of experts"
    >
    > POM

    I've seen better Brian ..........

    I'm finding that I agree with Mr. Lafferty recently on several of his comments. Brian is smart guy
    and wants to see things change for the better, nothing wrong with that. My apologies to Erik, he
    knows more about the imternational scene than I'll ever know. He has had good results over there and
    knows the mentality. My perspective was from watching how one world road race unfolded and finished.
    It was just my skewed "old man" perspective of bike racing.

    "OMC"
     
  15. Chris

    Chris Guest

    So now this is about drugs?

    I think its cool for kids to have other interests or concerns, but saying they have different
    cycling values and then racing full-time for a pro team seem to contradict. I mean, I've known
    plenty of guys take their time, go to college (or learn a trade) and then deliver big later. But
    this isn't really the case. USAC discourages college and pushes top U-23's to race their program all
    the while saying collegiate racing is the new hotbed for talent. Which is it?

    I say encourage racing and learning, but perhaps some of these "kid's" need some more Euro time to
    figure out if racing is for them. Floating around the U.S. circuit for 10 years isn't developing us
    riders, though.

    > The kid from Uzbekistan has ridden for a top euro team (Colnago/Lowb) same team as Popvich. He
    > might as well be Italian, just because his national team affiliation is not a powerhouse dosn't
    > mean that he lacks the racing culture of Europe. It really sucks that someone could hinder their
    > Euro career by having values and planning life beyond cycling, but that's the way of Pro cycling.
    > Michael will just have to decide what is best for him. For a lot of U23's in Europe cycling is
    > their only way to fame and fortune and are willing to do anything to get there. When a kid is ask
    > by a Euro Pro Team if they are willing to make a " commitment" to the sport they're not talking
    > about training hard and eating right. If you tell them "no" to the "commitment" your chance of
    > finding a ride decreases rapidly.
    >
    > OMC
     
  16. "chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > So now this is about drugs?
    >
    > I think its cool for kids to have other interests or concerns, but saying they have different
    > cycling values and then racing full-time for a pro team seem to contradict. I mean, I've known
    > plenty of guys take their time, go to college (or learn a trade) and then deliver big later. But
    > this isn't really the case. USAC discourages college and pushes top U-23's to race their program
    > all the while saying collegiate racing is the new hotbed for talent. Which is it?

    Dumbass -

    It's both.

    LANCE came out of the USAC program.

    T. Hamilton started in collegiate. So did T. Danielson.
     
  17. B. Lafferty

    B. Lafferty Guest

    "OMC" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > "OMC" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > > [email protected] (erik saunders) wrote in message
    > > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > > >The other euro teams that had missed the break were sitting
    > > > > >> on. Give them a little credit for making a huge effort to correct
    a
    > > > > >> tatical mistake. I guess they coudl adopted a European mentality
    and
    > > > > >> pulled up a chair next to Rapinski and the other 80+ euros that decided to watch...
    > > > > >>
    > > > > >> OMC
    > > > > >
    > > > >

    guys
    > > who
    > > > > werent as good as you guys... you all have the potential to be
    > > champions, so
    > > > > you should compare yourselves to the riders who are the
    playmakers... i
    > > think
    > > > > that if some of you would adopt a more playmaking mentality (SAUL)
    you
    > > would
    > > > > have better results... i only care because i like you guys and i
    believe
    > > in
    > > > > your ability... i am proud that you represent the USA... if you only
    > > knew the
    > > > > arguments i would get into with guys like chavanel and geslin
    defending
    > > you
    > > > > under 23 guys... they were even worse haters than you MIKE!...
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Please don't confuse me with YMC ! He is smart enough NOT to post here. I'm old and dumb
    > > > enough to continue to post here. After today's Elite results, did George and the boys lack the
    > > > playmaking mentality ? Look very similar to the U23 race with a late break forming and getting
    > > > away. George I'm sure doesn't lack Euro mentality. He didn't

    > > > you should know that. Knowing you need to get to the winning break and doing it is two
    > > > different things. When the battle plans work...your a

    > > > Italians who were favored to win.
    > > >
    > > > OMC
    > > >
    > > > "50 and still posting to this den of experts"
    > >
    > > POM
    >
    > I've seen better Brian ..........
    >
    > I'm finding that I agree with Mr. Lafferty recently on several of his comments. Brian is smart guy
    > and wants to see things change for the better, nothing wrong with that.

    Good Lord, maybe there is hope for peace in the middle-east. Pax.
     
  18. "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:eek:[email protected]...
    >
    > >
    > > I've seen better Brian ..........
    > >
    > > I'm finding that I agree with Mr. Lafferty recently on several of his comments. Brian is smart
    > > guy and wants to see things change for the better, nothing wrong with that.
    >
    > Good Lord, maybe there is hope for peace in the middle-east. Pax.

    Dumbass -

    Sure, after they have a nuclear war. Then there will be peace.
     
  19. B. Lafferty

    B. Lafferty Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:eek:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > >
    > > > I've seen better Brian ..........
    > > >
    > > > I'm finding that I agree with Mr. Lafferty recently on several of his comments. Brian is smart
    > > > guy and wants to see things change for the better, nothing wrong with that.
    > >
    > > Good Lord, maybe there is hope for peace in the middle-east. Pax.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Dumbass -
    >
    > Sure, after they have a nuclear war. Then there will be peace.

    Peace will come when you no longer have internet access.
     
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