You weigh less or bike weigh less?

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Pat Fleming, Sep 8, 2003.

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  1. Pat Fleming

    Pat Fleming Guest

    Here's a scenario regarding identical twins, Jim and John:

    Jim weighs 160 pounds and rides a 20 pound bike. John weighs 155 pounds and rides a 25 pound bike.

    With everything else being equal who should ride faster?
     
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  2. "Pat Fleming" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Here's a scenario regarding identical twins, Jim and John:
    >
    > Jim weighs 160 pounds and rides a 20 pound bike. John weighs 155 pounds and rides a 25 pound bike.
    >
    > With everything else being equal who should ride faster?

    Unless his BMI is less than 18, John will ride faster. His cardio system will work better.
     
  3. jitteringjr

    jitteringjr New Member

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    John, because he is in better shape, beats Jim up and takes his lighter bike and then rides most speedily :)
     
  4. Pat Fleming wrote:

    > Here's a scenario regarding identical twins, Jim and John:
    >
    > Jim weighs 160 pounds and rides a 20 pound bike. John weighs 155 pounds and rides a 25 pound bike.

    Hey! You said they were identical. Are you my long lost relative from the ancient holy land
    of Ireland?
     
  5. Pat Fleming wrote:

    > Here's a scenario regarding identical twins, Jim and John:
    >
    > Jim weighs 160 pounds and rides a 20 pound bike. John weighs 155 pounds and rides a 25 pound bike.
    >
    > With everything else being equal who should ride faster?

    Sorry, it's not like some 5th grade math problem. Too many variables aren't accounted for. Jim could
    be more motivated than John (or visa versa) and everything else wouldn't matter.
     
  6. Sm

    Sm Guest

    riiiiight....

    Got any other brain teasers for the mentally impaired there Pat?

    "Pat Fleming" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Here's a scenario regarding identical twins, Jim and John:
    >
    > Jim weighs 160 pounds and rides a 20 pound bike. John weighs 155 pounds and rides a 25 pound bike.
    >
    > With everything else being equal who should ride faster?
     
  7. > Here's a scenario regarding identical twins, Jim and John:
    >
    > Jim weighs 160 pounds and rides a 20 pound bike. John weighs 155 pounds and rides a 25 pound bike.
    >
    > With everything else being equal who should ride faster?

    Humm, good question.

    My guess is that Jim and John will ride at the same speed - which is probably not the answer you're
    looking for. But I base my answer on the fact that you specified that "everything" else was to be
    equal. 'Everything' to me would mean horsepower and road friction as well as wind drag and all
    that. So, if you 'push" two bikes down the road with "everything equal", then they must travel at
    the same speed.

    But I think what you really wanted to know is whether or not there is a tradeoff between bike weight
    and rider weight that is capable of optimization - and with everything else subject to change as
    dictated by the intrinsic variability of the two situations - meaning the two similar riders and
    their two similar bikes. And I think the answer to that question is not nearly so obvious.

    In thinking about it we can envision a peak in the velocity of any rider when his bike is lightest,
    and when he is most fit. This is what makes one rider faster than another - being on a light bike
    and being more fit. So, the problem resolves itself once one we realizes that both of these riders
    are generally not equally fit. If Jim is at his optimum weight, he will ride faster than his
    lightweight brother. But if John is at his optimum weight, he will ride faster than his overweight
    brother. In short, either one can be faster. Fitness is the key.

    There is however the possibility that each cyclist is equally fit by virtue of being unfit in equal
    amounts but in opposite directions - if you know what I mean. In other words, Jim is a little
    underweight, and riding a heavier bike, and John is a little overweight but riding a lighter bike.
    Who then will ride faster? Hummm, I think we've been here before. This sounds a lot like the
    original question. And here I suspect that the situation will resolve itself by more rigorously
    defining what is meant by "equally unfit".

    I think I'll go for a bike ride now,

    - Stan Shankman
     
  8. Smiles

    Smiles Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > > Jim weighs 160 pounds and rides a 20 pound bike. John weighs 155 pounds and rides a 25
    > > pound bike.
    > >
    > > With everything else being equal who should ride faster?
    > Unless his BMI is less than 18, John will ride faster. His cardio system
    will
    > work better.

    Naw ... Jim ... he'll have the psychological advantage of having a better bike;-) depends on what
    the 5 lbs is ... fat John wins ... muscle Jim would win ...
     
  9. "smiles" <[email protected]> wrote in news:gfk7b.3518
    [email protected]:

    <snip>

    > Naw ... Jim ... he'll have the psychological advantage of having a better bike;-) depends on what
    > the 5 lbs is ... fat John wins ... muscle Jim would win ...

    That depends on the course. On a very hilly course more muscle could actually be a bad thing. Then
    again 5 lbs. difference probably would matter much. It also depends on where the weight is
    distributed. If he has 5 lbs. more leg muscle, then Jim will probably win the sprint. However, if it
    is on his upper body, John will probably drop Jim in the hills.

    - Boyd S.
     
  10. "Stan Shankman" <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    >> Here's a scenario regarding identical twins, Jim and John:
    >>
    >> Jim weighs 160 pounds and rides a 20 pound bike. John weighs 155 pounds and rides a 25
    >> pound bike.
    >>
    >> With everything else being equal who should ride faster?
    >
    > Humm, good question.
    >
    > My guess is that Jim and John will ride at the same speed - which is probably not the answer
    > you're looking for. But I base my answer on the fact that you specified that "everything" else was
    > to be equal. 'Everything' to me would mean horsepower and road friction as well as wind drag and
    > all that. So, if you 'push" two bikes down the road with "everything equal", then they must travel
    > at the same speed.
    >
    > But I think what you really wanted to know is whether or not there is a tradeoff between bike
    > weight and rider weight that is capable of optimization - and with everything else subject to
    > change as dictated by the intrinsic variability of the two situations - meaning the two similar
    > riders and their two similar bikes. And I think the answer to that question is not nearly so
    > obvious.
    >
    > In thinking about it we can envision a peak in the velocity of any rider when his bike is
    > lightest, and when he is most fit. This is what makes one rider faster than another - being on a
    > light bike and being more fit. So, the problem resolves itself once one we realizes that both of
    > these riders are generally not equally fit. If Jim is at his optimum weight, he will ride faster
    > than his lightweight brother. But if John is at his optimum weight, he will ride faster than his
    > overweight brother. In short, either one can be faster. Fitness is the key.
    >
    > There is however the possibility that each cyclist is equally fit by virtue of being unfit in
    > equal amounts but in opposite directions - if you know what I mean. In other words, Jim is a
    > little underweight, and riding a heavier bike, and John is a little overweight but riding a
    > lighter bike. Who then will ride faster? Hummm, I think we've been here before. This sounds a lot
    > like the original question. And here I suspect that the situation will resolve itself by more
    > rigorously defining what is meant by "equally unfit".
    >
    > I think I'll go for a bike ride now,
    >
    > - Stan Shankman

    Nice way to side step the question.

    I think what the original poster mean was this:

    "Can my fatty master's ass keep up with the fitter guys on my group ride (on *relatively* heavy
    bikes) by buying a crazy expensive, crazy light bike?"

    From what I've seen on my group rides, the answer is no.

    Just my $0.02.

    - Boyd S.
     
  11. Jp

    Jp Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Pat Fleming" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Here's a scenario regarding identical twins, Jim and John:
    > >
    > > Jim weighs 160 pounds and rides a 20 pound bike. John weighs 155 pounds and rides a 25
    > > pound bike.
    > >
    > > With everything else being equal who should ride faster?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Unless his BMI is less than 18, John will ride faster. His cardio system will work better.

    With an equal BMI and equal levels of fitness, not to mention a lighter bike, Jim would win. Think
    of two engines with the same horsepower per cc output and the same weight, except one of them has a
    larger displacement.

    On a climb with both on the same type of bike it gets more complicated.

    The problem with this problem is that "everything else" can't be equal. If both have the same power
    output, then John is better conditioned while Jim would have smaller lungs, less cardio capacity
    and/or less strength but higher Cx. If they have the same BMI and level of fitness, they can't have
    the same power. Etc.

    JP
     
  12. "smiles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > > Jim weighs 160 pounds and rides a 20 pound bike. John weighs 155 pounds and rides a 25 pound
    > > > bike.
    > > >
    > > > With everything else being equal who should ride faster?
    > > Unless his BMI is less than 18, John will ride faster. His cardio system
    > will
    > > work better.
    >
    >
    > Naw ... Jim ... he'll have the psychological advantage of having a better bike;-) depends on what
    > the 5 lbs is ... fat John wins ... muscle Jim would win ...

    The limiting factor in (road) bike racing is rarely muscle. It's an endurance sport.
     
  13. C.D. Damron

    C.D. Damron Guest

    "Pat Fleming" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Here's a scenario regarding identical twins, Jim and John:
    >
    > Jim weighs 160 pounds and rides a 20 pound bike. John weighs 155 pounds and rides a 25 pound bike.
    >
    > With everything else being equal who should ride faster?

    There are too many factors to consider, not in evidence. If you keep going in this direction and the
    additional weight added to one bike was in the wheels, I think it would grow to be a large factor.
     
  14. Sonarrat

    Sonarrat Guest

    "Pat Fleming" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > Here's a scenario regarding identical twins, Jim and John:

    > Jim weighs 160 pounds and rides a 20 pound bike. John weighs 155 pounds and rides a 25 pound bike.

    > With everything else being equal who should ride faster?

    Given that John probably has less muscle mass and a less voluminious circulatory system,
    probably Jim.

    -Sonarrat.
     
  15. Smiles

    Smiles Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > > Naw ... Jim ... he'll have the psychological advantage of having a
    better
    > > bike;-) depends on what the 5 lbs is ... fat John wins ... muscle Jim
    would
    > > win ...
    >
    > The limiting factor in (road) bike racing is rarely muscle. It's an
    endurance
    > sport.

    You must not have cycling legs;-)

    Since when is the mass sprint for the finish have anything to do with endurance?? Draft and sprint
    .. Cipo or Petacchi??

    Is it me or does this sound like Pokemon ...

    s http://boardnbike.com
     
  16. "Pat Fleming" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Here's a scenario regarding identical twins, Jim and John:
    >
    > Jim weighs 160 pounds and rides a 20 pound bike. John weighs 155 pounds and rides a 25 pound bike.
    >
    > With everything else being equal who should ride faster?
    >
    >

    What's equal their (sustainable) power output or their power to weight ratio?

    If power output, then John would be faster up the hill if he had the same weight bike. He still
    might be faster even with the heavier bike if it is a standing climb. It takes more power to
    continually lift a 5lb heavier body than a 5lb lighter body.

    If power to weight ratio, then Jim is faster because he has more power with the same overall weight.
     
  17. "smiles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > > Naw ... Jim ... he'll have the psychological advantage of having a
    > better
    > > > bike;-) depends on what the 5 lbs is ... fat John wins ... muscle Jim
    > would
    > > > win ...
    > >
    > > The limiting factor in (road) bike racing is rarely muscle. It's an
    > endurance
    > > sport.
    >
    > You must not have cycling legs;-)
    >
    > Since when is the mass sprint for the finish have anything to do with endurance?? Draft and sprint
    > .. Cipo or Petacchi??

    Dumbass -

    According to:

    http://www.cycling4fans.de/e/informations/riders/e2b_cipollini.htm

    Cipollini is 6'4" and 174 lbs. That's a BMI of: 21.2 which I'll bet is much less than your Fat Ass.

    Here's a calculator for you so you can see by how much:

    http://nhlbisupport.com/bmi/bminojs.htm

    When The Lion Queen trained in San Diego one winter, he did Palomar in ~60 minutes. Most Cat 1
    climbers around here can't do that.

    The sprinters have to get to the finish after 150+k of racing without getting dropped and having
    some energy left for the sprint. Note how Nothstein has shed mucho weight (40 or 50 lbs?) since
    converting to road.
     
  18. Smiles

    Smiles Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > > You must not have cycling legs;-)
    > >
    > > Since when is the mass sprint for the finish have anything to do with endurance?? Draft and
    > > sprint .. Cipo or Petacchi??
    > Dumbass -
    >

    you're the dumbass ... taking time to research this;-) ... this is a hypothetical situation ... and
    is therefore a waste of energy to figure out ...anyway, i was just ribbing you, since based on your
    previous responses to most posts you're a "better than all" pompous ass who thinks this is serious
    in most cases and deserve to be baited;-)

    Duh, on the getting to the mass sprint ... and stay away from my "fat ass"

    s http://boardnbike.com
     
  19. "smiles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > > You must not have cycling legs;-)
    > > >
    > > > Since when is the mass sprint for the finish have anything to do with endurance?? Draft and
    > > > sprint .. Cipo or Petacchi??
    > > Dumbass -
    > >
    >
    > you're the dumbass ... taking time to research this;-) ... this is a hypothetical situation ...
    > and is therefore a waste of energy to figure out

    It's not a hypothetical situation at all. Road Racing is an endurance sport. Even sprinters need a
    lot of miles in their legs or they arrive at the finish line with nothing.
     
  20. Nev Shea

    Nev Shea Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    >
    > "Nev Shea" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >> "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in
    >> news:%[email protected]:
    >>
    >> > Sure, but almost never is lack of muscle mass a deciding factor in road racing.
    >>
    >>
    >> I dunno -- one could make a good argument that in a race with a lot of climbing the scrawny guys
    >> who lack muscle mass will beat the burly sprinter types.
    >
    >
    > I agree, perhaps my wording was not adequate to get the point across.
    >
    > Smiles was trying to claim that if one of the twins had more muscle, he would win.
    >
    > Even sprinters (road) tend to go better when they are lighter.

    Of course. Your wording was perfectly clear -- I was just perverting your intended meaning to help
    you make your point by giving an example that contradicted smiles' assertion.

    But I was a dumbass because I had skipped the post that had the total weights equal by making one
    bike heavy.

    I'm wondering if "smiles" is an alias for Dan Volker -- I think it was about 2 years ago or more he
    popped in here and started arguing about how bodybuilding was a great way to develop a racer. I was
    curious how the musclemen would do in the races in South Florida, but I'll assume they sucked or
    Volker would have come back to rub our noses in it if they had done well. Or maybe they got tossed
    for testing positive for steroids.

    NS

    ps -- I only remember Volker by name because I'd also seen him spouting off in scuba NGs
     
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