Your 2010/current power profile metrics...



RapDaddyo

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2005
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Originally Posted by stowy .

Hey people,

I've finally gotten my hands on a PT recently and been using for the last few weeks, and these are the numbers i've gotten from training/racing so far:


[SIZE= medium]time[/SIZE] [SIZE= medium]watts[/SIZE] [SIZE= medium]w/kg[/SIZE] [SIZE= medium]5s[/SIZE] [SIZE= medium]1200[/SIZE] [SIZE= medium] 15.58 [/SIZE] [SIZE= medium]30s[/SIZE] [SIZE= medium]831[/SIZE] [SIZE= medium] 10.79 [/SIZE] [SIZE= medium]1min[/SIZE] [SIZE= medium]735[/SIZE] [SIZE= medium] 9.55 [/SIZE] [SIZE= medium]5min[/SIZE] [SIZE= medium]426[/SIZE] [SIZE= medium] 5.53 [/SIZE] [SIZE= medium]15min[/SIZE] [SIZE= medium]383[/SIZE] [SIZE= medium] 4.97 [/SIZE] [SIZE= medium]~60min[/SIZE] [SIZE= medium]369[/SIZE] [SIZE= medium] 4.79 [/SIZE]
So for me, it looks like i am a hopeless sprinter but still punchy over 1min type efforts. These numbers come partly from uphill efforts, does this make a difference?

Also the 1hour i haven't tested properly, it's the number golden cheetah give for CP, do you think this is a good estimation?

Do i have any hope at becoming a better sprinter? I haven't really done any sprint training to date. I would like to improve this because here in Oz, you need to be able to sprint to win races.

Love to hear some informed opinions

Sam
The short answer is yes. I am also not a good natural sprinter and my best 5s power is similar to yours (~1250W). I know there are guys with 1500W+ power, so I try to avoid getting into a traditional sprint finish if possible. But, out of curiosity I did focus on seeing how much I could improve my 5s power a few years ago. Here's what I learned and some of the things I tried.

First, the bottom line. I improved my 5s power from ~850W (untrained) to ~1250W, about a 50% improvement. This was consistent with my other MPs. I increased them ~50% from an untrained state also.

Second, the things I did that seemed to be effective. I included 5s efforts in my workouts on a daily basis. I never did a full workout of 5s efforts, but at the end of just about every ride I would throw in 2-3x 5s efforts with ~5min recovery between efforts. I tend to ride the last 15 min of my workouts easy anyway, to cool down. As improbable as it sounds, throwing in a few 5s max efforts doesn't really change it from a cool down effort. Once a week I did 10x 5s efforts on my trainer, with 5min between efforts. Normally, I did these after about an hour at L4. This was very interesting because my trainer doesn't allow me to rock the bike. I thought this would impair my 5s performance but I found that I could hit the same #s on the trainer as on the road. On the road, I found that I got my best #s on an upgrade. My conclusion was that on an upgrade I could stay in a tighter cadence range because the bike was not accelerating away from me. On the flat, it was pretty common for my cadence to increase at least 50%.

The most important thing I learned was how I make my max power (torque vs cadence). I did this by trial-and-error experimentation. I learned that I make my best power more with cadence than torque. At low cadence (e.g., <75), my max power is really pathetic. I don't really hit my best #s until at least 90RPM and my sweet spot is in the 100-120RPM range. I can take it up to 150RPM, but my power starts to drop off after 140RPM. So, if and when I do have to sprint, I make sure to start in a small enough gear that I am doing at least 90RPM when I start the true sprint.

Hope this helps.
 

daveryanwyoming

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2006
3,857
190
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Originally Posted by RapDaddyo . I don't really hit my best #s until at least 90RPM and my sweet spot is in the 100-120RPM range. I can take it up to 150RPM, but my power starts to drop off after 140RPM. So, if and when I do have to sprint, I make sure to start in a small enough gear that I am doing at least 90RPM when I start the true sprint......

+10 on this post

Based on my own power files from sprints and those of several athletes I work with the single biggest mistake is over gearing a sprint and trying to muscle the bike up to speed from relatively low cadence. Once folks get the basics of sprint technique, upper body tension and positioning and the idea of an immediate acceleration to winding out gears instead of standing up tall and rocking the bike like you might on a steep climb the next level seems to be developing leg speed and then gear selection to utilize that leg speed.

I've been working just this issue with a couple of lower category racers and in both cases it only took a few sessions of small ring seated sprints till they developed the ability to regularly break 140 and even 150 rpm when the gearing was low and force wasn't the limiter. Then the key becomes picking a gear that you can actually spin up near that 140-150 rpm high end.

So if you're rolling at 25 mph as you approach the sprint and are riding a gear that you can roll at 90 rpm or more you'll have a pretty good shot at winding that up quickly, hit 140 rpm as you wind it to the line and you'll get the bike up to almost 39mph in that same gear. It all scales, if the pace is hot or it's a tailwind sprint and you're traveling at say 30 mph prior to the sprint you just need to pick a gear that you can ride at 90+ rpm at that speed and if you've done the leg speed work you don't have to worry about running out of gear before the line. You may or may not have the legs at that point in the race to actually wind up that gear but a bigger gear will only make that problem worse.

Bottom line, very few amateurs really need that 53x11 or 52x12 for high end sprints but a lot of folks are convinced that it's the key to going fast in the final meters of races. Save the huge gears for tailwind chasing or straight fast mountain descents but pay attention to leg speed and gearing as the sprint approaches and you'll typically generate higher peak power and won't run out of gears as long as you've developed some good high end leg speed in your training.

-Dave
 

bubsy

New Member
Sep 5, 2004
193
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0
Great posts guys, I am working on improving 5-20sec power atm as well and after most of my normal training sessions l've been doing a handful of small ring seated sprints or big ring out of saddle sprints and leg speed seems to make the most power, however it's hard to arrive at the finish line with any recovery let alone 5min rest and often there's not much left in tthe tank to develope really high leg speed and all too often it's to easy to just drop into a big gear and grind it out,
however it's something I'm really focusing on right now and having a plan before hand and to keep reminding one's self during the race to make sure gear selection and leg speed are optimal before you arive at the finish line,
doing these right at the end of tempo - threshold workouts as well as a few more in a more rested state has made the world of difference.
IOW you get better at what you train for.
 

danfoz

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2011
2,432
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Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .

Bottom line, very few amateurs really need that 53x11 or 52x12 for high end sprints but a lot of folks are convinced that it's the key to going fast in the final meters of races. Save the huge gears for tailwind chasing or straight fast mountain descents but pay attention to leg speed and gearing as the sprint approaches and you'll typically generate higher peak power and won't run out of gears as long as you've developed some good high end leg speed in your training.
I don't run a true compact but do use a 50/39 (with a 12T) and you wouldn't believe how many racers tell me it's not enough gearing, and that I'll get dropped in the sprint. Maybe in a Cat2 race or faster, but many fail to realize 50x12 is a actually a bigger gear than a 53x13. Going down any steep descent reveals this "tiny" gear exceeds my available leg speed at about 47mph, certainly fast enough to win most sprints. Now if I can just manage close to that on the flats /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif
 

tonyzackery

Well-Known Member
Dec 23, 2006
3,517
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On the sprinting and 5sec power note, interestingly, I've recently discovered that I haven't been pulling on the bars when I sprint. Started doing this on some form sprints, and voila - an additional 100w+ higher numbers on average!

Force on the pedals with the legs, braced with your arm/shoulders/back pulling on the bars will equate to higher power/speed than using the legs alone and the upper body only for stability. I'm convinced...go out and start yanking on those bars - give it a go...
 

bubsy

New Member
Sep 5, 2004
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Acually l agree with you Tony on pulling on the bars, that's where l usually hit my peak watts but l only use that tecnique in the final dying seconds of the sprint, I find l last longer and develope a higher avg power over the last 20-40sec of the race if l stay seated for the most part while winding up and moving to the front of the pack and jumping on to and coming around wheels l'll stay seated at high cadences right up to just before l dive at the line.
But racers with different body types and power profiles are going to develope their best sprint power much differently.
Only need to look at Cavendish vs Hushovd both have gone head to head for the sprinters jersey in the TDF but completly diff techniques and most likely power profiles.
I just don't have that brute strength and huge jump to be able to wind a big gear up quick enough when the main sprint is launched,
for years l tried reefing on the bars and muscling my way into the final sprint but people would just blow by me leaving me scrambling for a wheel to get me back up to the business end of the race.
 

tonyzackery

Well-Known Member
Dec 23, 2006
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Originally Posted by bubsy .

Acually l agree with you Tony on pulling on the bars, that's where l usually hit my peak watts but l only use that tecnique in the final dying seconds of the sprint, I find l last longer and develope a higher avg power over the last 20-40sec of the race if l stay seated for the most part while winding up and moving to the front of the pack and jumping on to and coming around wheels l'll stay seated at high cadences right up to just before l dive at the line.
But racers with different body types and power profiles are going to develope their best sprint power much differently.
Only need to look at Cavendish vs Hushovd both have gone head to head for the sprinters jersey in the TDF but completly diff techniques and most likely power profiles.
I just don't have that brute strength and huge jump to be able to wind a big gear up quick enough when the main sprint is launched,
for years l tried reefing on the bars and muscling my way into the final sprint but people would just blow by me leaving me scrambling for a wheel to get me back up to the business end of the race.

Oops - my mistake! I forgot most roadies don't have a 25+ year history of lifting heavy weights with their arms, shoulders and back/img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif.
You are absolutely right in what may work for me (pulling on the bars while sprinting) isn't going to apply for many, if not most...
 

quenya

Member
Jan 14, 2010
411
6
18
I stepped into the 20th century saturday when my wife gifted me with a powertap. Most of these numbers were from a 2.5 hour race simulation sunday morning, the 20 min power was the same for both intervals tonight and the 60min is derived from those. I'm really excited to start training with the PM and doing some formal testing.

Power profile
5s - 1017:14.3 w/kg
1m - 423: 5.9 w/kg
5m - 326: 4.6 w/kg
20m- 312: 4.4 w/kg
60m - derived 297:4.2 w/kg

157 lbs, 71kg. good TTer, better than average climber. Cat 4 in my first season racing.
 

An old Guy

Active Member
Feb 12, 2011
1,380
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Originally Posted by quenya .

I stepped into the 20th century saturday when my wife gifted me with a powertap. Most of these numbers were from a 2.5 hour race simulation sunday morning, the 20 min power was the same for both intervals tonight and the 60min is derived from those. I'm really excited to start training with the PM and doing some formal testing.

Power profile
5s - 1017:14.3 w/kg
1m - 423: 5.9 w/kg
5m - 326: 4.6 w/kg
20m- 312: 4.4 w/kg
60m - derived 297:4.2 w/kg

157 lbs, 71kg. good TTer, better than average climber. Cat 4 in my first season racing.
Very impressive a Cat4 with Cat1 power.

Had quenya not raced and just trained this year he could have shown up at open races and given the Cat1s a tough time. Just a nobody going out and doing well against the top level amateurs.
That is the beauty of numbers. They don't lie too much.

Oh. Wait. I made similar comments about my abilities and those of people I rode with. "racers" here made fun of those comments. I guess quenya is about to get taken down by the guys who think that only racers can do well against racers. I feel sorry for him.
 

quenya

Member
Jan 14, 2010
411
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I race mostly in NCNCA. While I can hold my own in cat 4 RRs and crits, the quality of guys out here make 3/4 races difficult, there is no shortage of guys with FTP >4 w/kg. And I have a lot to learn about race dynamics. At the masters district crit championship, in the 30-34 (cat 1-4) race I felt strong but the guys who took 1-2 made an early break that I couldn't bridge to. A broken spoke with 3 to go ended my race, but I got an extra 3 minutes to recover for the start of the elite 3/4 race. Against cat 1s who focus on crits and are bigger sprinters I can usually make the breaks or moves on the climbing part of our tues/thurs world champs rides, on the return to the sprint finish I'm a non-entity, at best a guy in the break or a chaser. That ride always finishes in a group sprint. Old guy, what's an open race? I've never seen a race where a guy could get a cat 5 one day license and race with 1s or 2s, maybe that's common where you live. Here though its usually a pro/1/2 field or the masters 1/2/3. 5s are lucky if they can race with the 4s. I never said a cyclist who doesn't race can't be as powerful as one who does. Though a group of club riders all being faster than a team of racers is a little suspect. I've passed a Ferrari in my mustang, yet I know which is the faster car. I've also passed riders who were much stronger than I am.
 

RapDaddyo

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2005
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Originally Posted by quenya .

I race mostly in NCNCA. While I can hold my own in cat 4 RRs and crits, the quality of guys out here make 3/4 races difficult, there is no shortage of guys with FTP >4 w/kg. And I have a lot to learn about race dynamics.

At the masters district crit championship, in the 30-34 (cat 1-4) race I felt strong but the guys who took 1-2 made an early break that I couldn't bridge to. A broken spoke with 3 to go ended my race, but I got an extra 3 minutes to recover for the start of the elite 3/4 race.

Against cat 1s who focus on crits and are bigger sprinters I can usually make the breaks or moves on the climbing part of our tues/thurs world champs rides, on the return to the sprint finish I'm a non-entity, at best a guy in the break or a chaser. That ride always finishes in a group sprint.


Old guy, what's an open race? I've never seen a race where a guy could get a cat 5 one day license and race with 1s or 2s, maybe that's common where you live. Here though its usually a pro/1/2 field or the masters 1/2/3. 5s are lucky if they can race with the 4s.

I never said a cyclist who doesn't race can't be as powerful as one who does. Though a group of club riders all being faster than a team of racers is a little suspect. I've passed a Ferrari in my mustang, yet I know which is the faster car. I've also passed riders who were much stronger than I am.
I can relate. I have pretty similar numbers when I'm race fit. The 1K watts won't win you many sprints, not even later in the upper masters categories. I can train up to ~1200W 5s power when I focus on it for a few weeks, and that gets me nothing if there are any real sprinters in the final bunch. About the only chance we have is to make the last few minutes hard and get rid of the true sprinters (e.g., >1500W). I have a lot better chance winning with 30s at 700W than I do with 5s at 1200W.
 

An old Guy

Active Member
Feb 12, 2011
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Open races are events where anyone who shows up can race. Everyone races together. No need for a license.

---

I don't know how many strong non-racers there are, but considering the number of racers and the sales of bicycles suitable for racing there may be a lot of them. Many of them don't race because they have jobs that they cannot perform with broken bones or road rash. Many of them don't see the economic incentive in spending more on racing related expenses than the available prize money.

The fast guys I rode with were Cat2 when they gave up racing. They had professional positions. They had afternoons and weekends free for riding. They enjoyed riding fast and working hard with limited risk of crashing.
 

cheetahmk7

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2010
846
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Where I'm from, an 'Open' is one of the major races on the state calender . These are open to anyone in the country with a Cycling Australia membership.

The only biggerThe only bigger state events are the State Championships.
 

quenya

Member
Jan 14, 2010
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Originally Posted by An old Guy .

Open races are events where anyone who shows up can race. Everyone races together. No need for a license.

---

I don't know how many strong non-racers there are, but considering the number of racers and the sales of bicycles suitable for racing there may be a lot of them. Many of them don't race because they have jobs that they cannot perform with broken bones or road rash. Many of them don't see the economic incentive in spending more on racing related expenses than the available prize money.

The fast guys I rode with were Cat2 when they gave up racing. They had professional positions. They had afternoons and weekends free for riding. They enjoyed riding fast and working hard with limited risk of crashing.
Okay so with regards to the 'open races' you said "Had quenya not raced and just trained this year he could have shown up at open races and given the Cat1s a tough time" how does my having raced this season change that? The fact is had I not raced I probably would have been in a little better shape than I am now. I sacrificed a lot of long rides to do out of town crits early in the season and really never felt like my fitness reached the point it should have.

And, that was the right thing to do because I am so much more comfortable in the pack now, and have a much better understanding of how to race. These things will pay off huge down the road. I know now that a day with a crit is basically an easy day and really needs another ride to make it beneficial in any training sense.

As far as bike sales being at all related to the abilities of the rider, that's not what I see, on a fair weather saturday morning, around here its 8000$ bikes under fat upper middle class guys. I know an RN who uses the 'I cant work after a crash' argument to explain why he doesn't race and an RN with almost the exact same job at a different hospital who is a Cat 2 and has been racing for 21 years. It's a BS reason, the fact is a person is more likely to be off work because of a car accident than a bike crash, but they still drive, the real reason is racing isn't a priority or a passion.
 

danieleaq

New Member
Aug 19, 2011
15
2
0
5s: 1031
1Min: 485
5Min: 396
20Min: 314
60Min: 302

weight= 68,5 kg
height =174 cm
AGE: 48
Powermeter:Cyclops
Bike = scott

It would be interesting for someone to summarize data in an excel file

Daniele
 

An old Guy

Active Member
Feb 12, 2011
1,380
42
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Originally Posted by quenya .



Okay so with regards to the 'open races' you said "Had quenya not raced and just trained this year he could have shown up at open races and given the Cat1s a tough time" how does my having raced this season change that?

As far as bike sales being at all related to the abilities of the rider, that's not what I see, on a fair weather saturday morning, around here its 8000$ bikes under fat upper middle class guys. I know an RN who uses the 'I cant work after a crash' argument to explain why he doesn't race and an RN with almost the exact same job at a different hospital who is a Cat 2 and has been racing for 21 years. It's a BS reason, the fact is a person is more likely to be off work because of a car accident than a bike crash, but they still drive, the real reason is racing isn't a priority or a passion.
My point was that there are a lot of people who don't race who have Cat1 strength. I used you as an example to make my point. I used bike sales to support my point. (i even used the guys I rode with as examples.)

At some point you are going to have a tough decision. Stay in the lower Cats and do well in races or graduate to the higher Cats and do less well. Some people have graduated to the higher Cats and decided that the cost of "racing" and the risk of physical harm was too great. They chose to go out and work hard on the roads - alone or in small groups.

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"8000$ bikes under fat upper middle class guys"

I am a not too fat old rich guy. I ride with a 50-34 in the front and a 16-30 on the back. I don't have anything to prove. I bet some of those "fat upper middle class guys" were stronger than you when they were young.

I was passed today on the 1 mile hill I ride. I was doing my 11th of 13 repeats. Never saw the guy coming. Passed me on the right on the false flat between the 2 ramps. I must have been in a 34/22 or 24/24. I yawned and ignored him. Now, it occurs to me that he might have Cat1 power and does not race. Next time I will pace him up the hill and inquire.
 

tonyzackery

Well-Known Member
Dec 23, 2006
3,517
80
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Very lackluster year, racing and training-wise. As more experience is gained from racing, I'm learning the power numbers are almost inconsequential to racing 'smart' before the sprint.

Most best power numbers carry-over from last year. Improvements:

30sec - 957w, during fast group ride
1min - 721w, on 5% hill trying to hit a 'number'
20mins - 344w, during indoor TT

Cat 3, 88kgs
 

lanierb

New Member
Aug 12, 2004
495
4
0
Quote:
Originally Posted by quenya .

I stepped into the 20th century saturday when my wife gifted me with a powertap. Most of these numbers were from a 2.5 hour race simulation sunday morning, the 20 min power was the same for both intervals tonight and the 60min is derived from those. I'm really excited to start training with the PM and doing some formal testing.

Power profile
5s - 1017:14.3 w/kg
1m - 423: 5.9 w/kg
5m - 326: 4.6 w/kg
20m- 312: 4.4 w/kg
60m - derived 297:4.2 w/kg

157 lbs, 71kg. good TTer, better than average climber. Cat 4 in my first season racing.

Nice quenya. Your FTP is already pretty decent after only one season! Also, if those numbers are from one ride you will surely increase many of them, particularly the 5s, 1m, and 5m, but probably the others too. The 1m and 5m in particular look low relative to your FTP and 5s. You should easily win some cat 4 races with those numbers (assuming your true 1m and 5m are higher).
 

tonyzackery

Well-Known Member
Dec 23, 2006
3,517
80
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Originally Posted by An old Guy .

My point was that there are a lot of people who don't race who have Cat1 strength.
Makes for a nice sound-bite, but doubt highly the accuracy - maybe Cat3 strength. If they actually had that (Cat1) strength, they'd be racing in one form or another (tri/du-athlon, time trials, etc.) Cat.1 is at the pointy end of the curve, and to get there takes much more than riding solo.
 

An old Guy

Active Member
Feb 12, 2011
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Originally Posted by tonyzackery .




Makes for a nice sound-bite, but doubt highly the accuracy - maybe Cat3 strength. If they actually had that (Cat1) strength, they'd be racing in one form or another (tri/du-athlon, time trials, etc.) Cat.1 is at the pointy end of the curve, and to get there takes much more than riding solo.
Riding solo? It would be nice to know when riding solo became the alternative to racing. In any case, t appears that quenya has posted Cat1 power numbers without a great deal of racing. I guess you are now discounting power numbers as a measure of strength.

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As far as the pointy end of the curve. I think that is somewhere around European pro level. Could you find a Cat1 who can produce a FTP of over 400w (full hour test) after 4 hours of racing? European pros can.
 

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