Your ideal spinning session, what would that be?

[SolarEnergy]

Haven't posted anything for a whilst sorry I've been busy with the two other disciplines lately. You may have forgotten me already

I've recently been put in charge of building a new triathlon program from scratch in a University, like I already did a few years back.

Now the different thing is that we have this spinning thing, which I admit I've never really been a fan of. Doing pushups and tapping on my belly whilst scratching my head, off the saddle, never really been into this sort of stuff.

Are you like me?

I got to put together a recurring activity, a weekly spinning session lasting 60min. We intend to use the spinning bikes and the sound system.

What would you do if you were me?
What's your idea of a perfect spinning session for time trialists?

We're probably going to spend some time simulating the aero position during hard work but aside from that?

 

[Chapeau!]

Can't beat the road. Only point to indoor trainers is when you can't get outside e.g. snow, ice, or just too damn cold.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on2khzXXhiQ]YouTube - Lance Armstrong Training[/ame]

 

[SolarEnergy]

Yep. You got it thanks.

By December, it'll be minus 10. And usually when it snows, it's at least 5inch at the time ++

I live in Canada. Thanks for the clip!

 

[smaryka]

I got to put together a recurring activity, a weekly spinning session lasting 60min. We intend to use the spinning bikes and the sound system.

What would you do if you were me?
What's your idea of a perfect spinning session for time trialists?

We're probably going to spend some time simulating the aero position during hard work but aside from that?

I've never liked typical gym-style spinning classes, but my triathlon club (led by a friend of mine) had them in the winter and I quite enjoyed them. I think the key is to make it similar to an hour-long interval workout you'd do on your own. Of course, you're going to bore everyone doing 2x20s, but there's no reason that you can't do some speed drills/skills (one-legged, spin-ups) and strength/core stuff (low-rpm stuff and no-hands riding while standing). Also popular are increasing-resistance steady-state intervals (mimicking a ~10 min climb), sprints for leg speed, standing intervals, etc.

I think the key things are a proper warmup and a good progression between songs/intervals. And picking music with a good beat that matches the cadences you want to encourage. If you want to get advanced, you can split the class up and have them "race" each other and that kind of thing. Adds to the interest level anyway.

Fwiw, as it's winter I wouldn't worry too much about time-trial specific stuff as spin bikes are going to be hard to mimic any kind of aero riding for a lot of people anyway (would be different if you had people bring in their own bikes and set them up on trainers). So if I were you I'd focus on fitness and skills and keeping it interesting and fun. It's only an hour, make it count! People should leave your session pretty tired but satisfied that they made the most of an hour's training while it's dark and snowy outside. And they should be wanting to come back week after week.

For ideas, have a look at the book "Workouts in a binder for indoor cycling" by Dirk Friel. For songs, google away.

 

[SolarEnergy]

Thanks a lot for the comprehensive answer, truly appreciated.

I like the fact that you're challenging the idea of developing the aero position off season, because it gets me to better outline the reason as to why I'd do this.

The thing with aero position, is that it is highly dependent on lower back flexibility. It ain't just a matter of fitting the equipment, as you certainly know.

So I was planning on devoting 5-10min to stretching (with development in mind, not with injury prevention or warmup matters in mind) these regions (lower back, hamstring etc).

Then on the bikes, I'd spend another 5-10min doing stuff to improve lowerback's endurance. That still leaves room for 2 blocks of 20min, one of which could be pure threshold work and the other either leg speed development, or leg endurance at lower cadence this, or of course, vo2max development (on / off the saddle)...

 

[smaryka]

Thanks a lot for the comprehensive answer, truly appreciated.

I like the fact that you're challenging the idea of developing the aero position off season, because it gets me to better outline the reason as to why I'd do this.

The thing with aero position, is that it is highly dependent on lower back flexibility. It ain't just a matter of fitting the equipment, as you certainly know.

So I was planning on devoting 5-10min to stretching (with development in mind, not with injury prevention or warmup matters in mind) these regions (lower back, hamstring etc).

Then on the bikes, I'd spend another 5-10min doing stuff to improve lowerback's endurance. That still leaves room for 2 blocks of 20min, one of which could be pure threshold work and the other either leg speed development, or leg endurance at lower cadence this, or of course, vo2max development (on / off the saddle)...

Ah I misunderstood, I thought you meant actually trying to replicate an aero position on spin bikes. The spin bikes I've used are somewhat adjustable but I could never get my upper body anywhere near as low as I can on my TT bike (though I have a small frame and short legs, so spin bikes for me are always on the large side). And the saddles are notoriously fat and wide and not very comfy for an aggressive forward position. So I always found it fruitless to try and ride in an aero position on any stationary bike except for my TT bike on a turbo trainer.

But definitely not a bad idea to work on core strength and lower back stuff. One of my friend's favourite exercises was having us sit up straight, butt just off the saddle, pedalling at a nice low cadence, ~60-70rpm, and only lightly touching the bars (if at all) with our fingers. Hard work! But great for your core.

 

[jollyrogers]

I got to put together a recurring activity, a weekly spinning session lasting 60min. We intend to use the spinning bikes and the sound system.

What would you do if you were me?
What's your idea of a perfect spinning session for time trialists?

2 x 20, 3 x 15 @ ~ FTP

Every 4-5 weeks, throw in a week or two of

4-6 x 4-5 min @ ~ VO2max

 

[SolarEnergy]

Ah I misunderstood, I thought you meant actually trying to replicate an aero position on spin bikes. The spin bikes I've used are somewhat adjustable but I could never get my upper body anywhere near as low as I can on my TT bike (though I have a small frame and short legs, so spin bikes for me are always on the large side). And the saddles are notoriously fat and wide and not very comfy for an aggressive forward position. So I always found it fruitless to try and ride in an aero position on any stationary bike except for my TT bike on a turbo trainer.

Oh this is some piece of very good advices. I had forgotten about these damn saddles.

You only half misunderstood. I really intended to get them to ride in aero position on these setups, but your post here is getting me thinking.

But definitely not a bad idea to work on core strength and lower back stuff. One of my friend's favourite exercises was having us sit up straight, butt just off the saddle, pedalling at a nice low cadence, ~60-70rpm, and only lightly touching the bars (if at all) with our fingers. Hard work! But great for your core.

That will be on the menu. Thanks.

Don't be shy guys, feel free to participate to the birth of a perfect spinning session for time trialists.

 

[SolarEnergy]

2 x 20, 3 x 15 @ ~ FTP

You're raising an interesting question here.

Of course, I'd be a very bad coach if I wasn't looking for ways to get these folks up to this sort of level, for this sort of duration. Ground evidence seems to suggest that they work very well. 've been hearing about these for what.. 6, 7 years now. I can't recall one single occurrence of a time trialist denying their efficiency in developing / maintaining sustainable power. Strong ground evidence!

That said, I have a sound system, it's a pseudo spinning class. Not sure if committing the class to a plain 20min long iso power interval at 95% MMP is something that is acceptable, from a customer service point of view.

In the same line of thoughts. I could be as well planning for a 60min long interval (one of my favorite workout) which is also extremely efficient, but it would be one of the worst mistake to do, customer service wise.

So I am rather searching for nice little sets aimed at reaching the desired level, for the desired amount of time, but with some variability to break boredom.

Now wait a minute, isn't the primary purpose of those micro-intervals?? With a little edge on the neuro-muscular power recruitment in bonus?

And what about:
10min @ 90%
5min @ 95%
Then 5min of micro-intervals?

No that' sh i tt y.

10min @90% followed by 10min of micro-intervals would already be smarter. Supposed to visit a friend tomorrow to get some high end techno play list sort of music. I'll keep that one in mind, unless you have something better to propose.. be my guess.

Speaking about music, of course, if there are on this site, reading this thread, people that love both techno music and intervals and that can propose a set that fits some music that you could send me by email in an mp3 format... now that would be really cool!

 

[swampy1970]

I like that "Lifetime TV inspired" training video of Lance Armstrongs training - dumbed down for the masses and designed not to hurt too much.

Oooooh. I can just feel the burn of spinning that 39x17. But hey, if I can put out 490watts at the end of a pyrenean stage on a mountain top finish from doing that then sign me up...

 

[jollyrogers]

You're raising an interesting question here.

That said, I have a sound system, it's a pseudo spinning class. Not sure if committing the class to a plain 20min long iso power interval at 95% MMP is something that is acceptable, from a customer service point of view.

Depends of whether your definition of customer service is improving sustainable power or entertaining the spinners. That said, there isn't any reason that 15 and 20 minute intervals have to be constant power.

I do my 2 x 20 with 8-10 second spikes every 2 minutes. You could also add out of the saddle jumps ala Bill Black's HOP workout. Micro intervals laced into longer intervals would probably be OK as well, though I found that doing 150% / 50% micro intervals did more for my jump than they did for increasing FTP. I did not do my micro intervals in blocks of 20 minutes duration though.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Depends of whether your definition of customer service is improving sustainable power or entertaining the spinners. That said, there isn't any reason that 15 and 20 minute intervals have to be constant power.

I do my 2 x 20 with 8-10 second spikes every 2 minutes. You could also add out of the saddle jumps ala Bill Black's HOP workout. Micro intervals laced into longer intervals would probably be OK as well, though I found that doing 150% / 50% micro intervals did more for my jump than they did for increasing FTP. I did not do my micro intervals in blocks of 20 minutes duration though.

If I am training on a spin bike I do something similar.
2 minutes seated / 2 minutes up for 40 minutes at best possible RPE of high L3 or L4.

......and I like the spin bike (miss having a PM though) for these intervals because it has a stable platform and does not have tire slip like my trainer.

 

[jollyrogers]

10min @90% followed by 10min of micro-intervals would already be smarter.

Do the spin bikes that you will use have power? HR is a workable proxy for efforts up to VO2max, but above that it's useless and, without power, you'll be limited to RPE.

 

[SolarEnergy]

Do the spin bikes that you will use have power? HR is a workable proxy for efforts up to VO2max, but above that it's useless and, without power, you'll be limited to RPE.

Everything will be RPE based. No recommendation to even carry an HR monitor. I am absolutely convinced that the new bikes this University will purchase, which are scheduled to arrive this week won't have any power estimation tools embedded to 'em.

Friend of mine lend me some Spinnervals dvds last week. I was listening to one this morning.

How do you find these?
I won't have time to listen to them all, is there a few dvds that are a must see?

The author of these dvds, based on the one I looked at, seem to approach training from a muscular development perspective. He often refers to Leg Strenght, Leg Power, Leg Endurance, throwing sets of Lunges.

*edit*
Found what is supposed to be THE time trial development session. Ain't bad, but it certainly can be improved in my opinion.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Well at least Solar you will be instructing from a cycling point of view.

I quit following the spin instructors several years ago because they were just general fitness folk that teach a variety of Les Mills classes.

I kind of get cracked up by some of the directions I hear in class. I am usually off to the side in front of the big fans and I only go there because they do have some good music. Now and then one of the teachers will yell out for the class to do something and then they will ask me, "this is what you would do out on the road?" My general response is "No." Their reply, "Oh....okay. Well he knows what he is doing but the rest of you keep doing what I say."

Since July my focus has gone tunnel vision for training time at level so I have had to drop the spin class and stay on my bike/trainer at home to use the power meter exclusively. Kind of miss the music and pointing all those huge industrial fans on me though.

 

[SolarEnergy]

Thanks a lot so far guys.

I am still unsure at this time, but there's a high probability that the new spin bikes be equipped with power estimation tools. I payed a visit to the spin room yesterday and I could see a bike that was quite different that all the other ones.

Saddle was narrower, profile bars looked great and oh! surprise! the computer display was showing actual power (not sure if it computes the avg power, I doubt it).

I keep my fingers crossed because that could set the table for a lot of nice power based sessions. Funny how as a new spin instructor, I feel like the 'last quickly becoming the first!'

Most of these certified spinning instructor don't know and don't care about watts.

Thanks for your input so far. Feel free to jump in and propose some sets. I still have two weeks ahead of me before session 1.

 

[bartjoosen]

If I had to make an indoor program for time trials, I would stick to the 2x20, or the 90/90/90 program.
But to keep things interesting, "split" the 20s, for example start a little slower, and accelerate every x minutes while returning to a slightly higher pace, ramp up and down every x minutes, ....

Break up the larger parts, but keep the effort relative high for a longer period.

Bart

 

[Enriss]

what's the 90/90/90 program? 90 minutes at 90 rpm, 90 times per year?

 

[bartjoosen]

90/90/90 comes from Coggan:
 

Seriously, the best season I've had in recent years followed a winter
during which I did the following '90/90'90' workout 3 d/wk:

5 min w/u
20 min @ 275 W
5 min easy
5 min @ 325 W
2.5 min easy
5 min @ 325 W
2.5 min easy
0.5 min at 500 W
2 min easy
0.5 min at 500 W
2 min easy
0.5 min at 500 W
2 min easy
0.5 min at 500 W
2.5 min easy
5 min warm-down

The '90/90/90' refers to the fact that (almost by chance) the powers
used were about 90% of the best that I could produce for that duration
when at peak fitness. That made the session challenging enough that I
didn't lose too much fitness over the winter, but not so hard that I
ever dreaded the workout or burned out from doing it.

 

[SolarEnergy]

Interesting.... My thread has resurrect ! Joy !
 
Thanks for your input guys, I took it into account in building my first session, which is taking place on Sept26th.
 
7min warm up, slowly ramping up the power on an African song (yes, bikes are equipped with power estimation devices)
A bit of lower back stretching
a 20min long interval done @ FTP on techno stuff with some variability in it (to break the boredom and to increase VI), some riding off the saddle, some riding in aero position etc...
a 10min long interval, all sitting, power @ FTP for the first 5, followed by a 5min break away at the highest power level possible. This is on Genesis' Driving the Last Spike, holding a cadence of little over 100rpm
a 4min long interval off the saddle (L5) on Depeche Mode's Route 66
Cool down